At Sea "Replenishment" of Planes Torpedoes ?

At Sea "Replenishment" of Planes Torpedoes ? (Full Version)

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pavel01 -> At Sea "Replenishment" of Planes Torpedoes ? (12/12/2016 11:04:26 AM)
I seem to understand (but I could be wrong..) that "in Port", in order to fully re-supply Airplanes' Torpedoes 2 full days are necessary as on the first day fuel and general supplies get replenished and on the first day Airplanes' Torpedoes get replenished. And, I understand as well, an Air HQ needs be present in that Port in order to get those Torpedoes replenished. But what about with "At Sea" replenishment in between 2 separate Task forces an Air combat one like for example that which attacked Pearl Harbour on Dec 7th and a secondary Replenishment Task Force ? Is it necessary to keep both Task Forces, in enemy waters, as stationary, doing nothing for 2 full days but the replenishment needed in order to re-supply all Airplanes of their full Torpedoes loads ? Thank you for clarifing this to me.

HansBolter -> RE: At Sea "Replenishment" of Planes Torpedoes ? (12/12/2016 11:13:47 AM)
There is no 'full two days' as a set requirement. The time necessary for replenishment is a function of the size of the task force and the amount of replenishment. Port, like task forces have 1000 OPs point to use per turn. You also do NOT need an air HQ to replenish torpedoes for a TF. This is done by having either the necessary threshold level of port size or AEs and/or AKEs loaded with supplies at the port. You are confusing air squadrons and TFs. Land based air squadrons get torpedoes from air HQs. Carrier based air squadrons get torpedoes from the carrier stockpile. The carrier stockpile acts like an AIR HQ for carrier based squadrons. The carrier stockpile is replenished from a port, not an AIR HQ. There is no at seas replenishment of ammunition until 1945 when AEs become capable of this function. At sea replacement of air frames can be accomplished by having replacement air squadrons in range of your carriers. These come in on some of the CVEs.

pavel01 -> RE: At Sea "Replenishment" of Planes Torpedoes ? (12/12/2016 11:47:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HansBolter There is no 'full two days' as a set requirement. The time necessary for replenishment is a function of the size of the task force and the amount of replenishment. Port, like task forces have 1000 OPs point to use per turn. You also do BOT need an air HQ to replenish torpedoes for a TF. This is done by having either the necessary threshold level of port size or AEs and/or AKEs loaded with supplies at the port. You are confusing air squadrons and TFs. Land based air squadrons get torpedoes from air HQs. Carrier based air squadrons get torpedoes from the carrier stockpile. The carrier stockpile acts like an AIR HQ for carrier based squadrons. The carrier stockpile is replenished from a port, not an AIR HQ. There is no at seas replenishment of ammunition until 1945 when AEs become capable of this function. At sea replacement of air frames can be accomplished by having replacement air squadrons in range of your carriers. These come in on some of the CVEs. Thank you very much for the kind reply. Let me see if I understood that well. It is "not" necessary to replenish ammunitions for a Task force that is "At Sea" ? That is, in the example of Torpedoes, as soon as on December 7th the Torpedo Bombers get back to their Carriers and land on the flattop they get "automatically" replenished ? If so, why at the start of turn 2 (Dec 8th) the torpedo bombers have in RED the writing Use Torpedoes and I have to select "Bombs" if I want to have a 2nd, December 8th Attack on Pearl Harbour ? If their re-loading of Torpedoes from their Carrier was to be automatic, shouldn't they be capable of launching a second attack on Dec 8th using Torpedoes by default ? And, yes, I did select Naval Attack which should automatically switch the ammo to be used to Torpedoes, I would imagine... Also, how do I check the status of ammunitions supplies for my Carriers ? And should they be low on ammunitions, this would mean that I could only and solely re-plenish them at a Port, never "At Sea" using a Replenishment, seperate Task Force ? That is, "At Sea" Replenishment Task Forces only resupply Fuel ? Because, I seemed to understand that "supplies" meant also ammunitions..... Lastly, a question about Pearl Harbour's "flak" effectiveness.... My understanding is, that in order to reproduce the unpreparedness of Pearl Harbour to the Japanese attack on Dec 7th, it's Flak's value is severely reduced for that first day of Attack. If the Attack is endured over the subsequent days, the Flak effectiveness rating in Pearl Harbour goes back up a whole lot from the 2nd day onwards causing heavy losses to Japanese attacking planes. My Question is, is there a way, and in such case what would this way be, on the very 1st day of attack, Dec 7th, to conduct the Attack in a way that would severely penalize and hinder, also for those subsequent days, Pearl Harbour's Flak so as to minimize Japanese Airplanes' losses to the least possible over a course of, say, 3 days of attacks (so as to try to actualy sink more BBs as possible) ? Thanks !

HansBolter -> RE: At Sea "Replenishment" of Planes Torpedoes ? (12/12/2016 1:52:09 PM)
I didn't say not 'necessary'. I said not 'possible'. Yes the squadrons torps will be automatically replenished from the carrier stockpile. The stockpile is limited. Different classes of carriers have different torpedo capacities. The likely reason you can't fly with torps on day 2 is the carriers have exhausted their stockpiles. US Fleet CV have a capacity of 36. This can be exhausted in one day with a morning and an afternoon sortie. Not sure of capacities for torps on Jap carriers. Need a JFB to answer that. Only way to suppress flak is to attack ground targets. You don't get to pick which ground targets your pilots attack so there is no practical way to reduce the flak. The Peal attack was a long shot at the end of a very long logistical thread. You can't morph it into more than is possible.

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: At Sea "Replenishment" of Planes Torpedoes ? (12/12/2016 2:07:26 PM)
Also, the Japanese never get underway replenishment of ammunition. The Allies get it from AEs in January 1945.

BillBrown -> RE: At Sea "Replenishment" of Planes Torpedoes ? (12/12/2016 2:16:58 PM)
Also note that if you have Port Attack orders the torpedo line will be red. It will only be yellow if you have Naval Attack selected and your CV has enough torpedoes.

crsutton -> RE: At Sea "Replenishment" of Planes Torpedoes ? (12/12/2016 2:33:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 Also, the Japanese never get underway replenishment of ammunition. The Allies get it from AEs in January 1945. But nothing greater than five inch ammo. Heavier guns need to be resupplied from ports.

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: At Sea "Replenishment" of Planes Torpedoes ? (12/12/2016 3:00:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 Also, the Japanese never get underway replenishment of ammunition. The Allies get it from AEs in January 1945. But nothing greater than five inch ammo. Heavier guns need to be resupplied from ports. This was patched to correct.

bradfordkay -> RE: At Sea "Replenishment" of Planes Torpedoes ? (12/12/2016 4:06:41 PM)
Another way to replenish your carriers is to bring a Replenishment TF with at least one AE of sufficient size into a port (it can even be a 'dot' hex port) and use "At Sea" replenishment. AEs are capable of replenishing carrier torpedoes and even battleships when in the safe confines of a harbor. Neither TF needs to be docked or disbanded.

Lokasenna -> RE: At Sea "Replenishment" of Planes Torpedoes ? (12/12/2016 4:17:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 Also, the Japanese never get underway replenishment of ammunition. The Allies get it from AEs in January 1945. But nothing greater than five inch ammo. Heavier guns need to be resupplied from ports. This was patched to correct. I'm not convinced that the patch corrected the upper limit on 5". I think it simply corrected a logic error that was causing the replenishment loop to stop if it reached a device it couldn't replenish, instead of moving to the next device in the line and checking it (and so on down the line until Ops/Supplies were gone).

pavel01 -> RE: At Sea "Replenishment" of Planes Torpedoes ? (12/12/2016 4:33:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BillBrown Also note that if you have Port Attack orders the torpedo line will be red. It will only be yellow if you have Naval Attack selected and your CV has enough torpedoes. So with a Port Attack only Bombs are used and it ain't possible to use Torpedoes against the Ships anchored in that Port ?

BillBrown -> RE: At Sea "Replenishment" of Planes Torpedoes ? (12/12/2016 5:07:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pavel01 quote: ORIGINAL: BillBrown Also note that if you have Port Attack orders the torpedo line will be red. It will only be yellow if you have Naval Attack selected and your CV has enough torpedoes. So with a Port Attack only Bombs are used and it ain't possible to use Torpedoes against the Ships anchored in that Port ? I did not say that. Please read section 7.2.1.7 of the manual.

GetAssista -> RE: At Sea "Replenishment" of Planes Torpedoes ? (12/12/2016 6:01:15 PM)
WRT 7.2.1.7, I personally never ever saw torpedoes in port attacks, although the manual mentions a small chance. Except initial PH strike. When planning the attack Japanese extensively researched the harbour, depths, attack runs for Kates, and modified their torpedoes to not dive too deep in shallow water. All other port attacks by TBs in my games are done either with standard bomb load, or with 800kg bombs if xp checks are made successfully, with all the huge to-hit bonuses against disbanded ships. No torps. Edit: maybe I never tried, hm..

BBfanboy -> RE: At Sea "Replenishment" of Planes Torpedoes ? (12/12/2016 6:13:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GetAssista WRT 7.2.1.7, I personally never ever saw torpedoes in port attacks, although the manual mentions a small chance. Except initial PH strike. When planning the attack Japanese extensively researched the harbour, depths, attack runs for Kates, and modified their torpedoes to not dive too deep in shallow water. All other port attacks by TBs in my games are done either with standard bomb load, or with 800kg bombs if xp checks are made successfully, with all the huge to-hit bonuses against disbanded ships. No torps. Edit: maybe I never tried, hm.. I ordered a port strike from my Allied carriers and tried to switch the weapons to torpedoes. I got a message saying "invalid weapon".

pavel01 -> RE: At Sea "Replenishment" of Planes Torpedoes ? (12/12/2016 6:38:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BillBrown quote: ORIGINAL: pavel01 quote: ORIGINAL: BillBrown Also note that if you have Port Attack orders the torpedo line will be red. It will only be yellow if you have Naval Attack selected and your CV has enough torpedoes. So with a Port Attack only Bombs are used and it ain't possible to use Torpedoes against the Ships anchored in that Port ? I did not say that. Please read section 7.2.1.7 of the manual. I assume that the relevant part of that Section might be where it says : quote: Bombers attacking ports will attack any ships at anchor 50% of the time, however, TF�s docked in port will not be attacked. These attacks use bombs with only a small percentage of torpedo bombers using torpedoes (as it is assumed these ships may be in dry dock or protected by torpedo nets). If there are less than 10 ships at port, the chance of bombers attacking ships lessens with each number less than 10 (so, bombers would be more likely to attack ships if 9 were in port as opposed to 4) The way I understand it, is that therefore, a Port Attack "if" only enemy's Task Forces are docked will result in no attack to Ships. If there is Anchored Ships (not TFs) only 50% of those Attacks will result in an attack against those Ships and the likeliness of torpedoes being used will be very small and the smaller the number of Ships in Port below 10 the lesser the likeliness of an Attack against those Ships. Bottom line is, to my understanding, that if one wanted to have those Ships in Port be sunk, Port Attack would be a very poor Combat choice as opposed to a Naval Attack..... Or did I get it all wrong ?

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: At Sea "Replenishment" of Planes Torpedoes ? (12/12/2016 6:59:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton quote: ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58 Also, the Japanese never get underway replenishment of ammunition. The Allies get it from AEs in January 1945. But nothing greater than five inch ammo. Heavier guns need to be resupplied from ports. This was patched to correct. I'm not convinced that the patch corrected the upper limit on 5". I think it simply corrected a logic error that was causing the replenishment loop to stop if it reached a device it couldn't replenish, instead of moving to the next device in the line and checking it (and so on down the line until Ops/Supplies were gone). To be clear, you're right. This is the text of the patch: [10.07.2016] 1126a Fix underway replenishment not working if total rearm cost too big But there never was a 5in. limit. The tests I did in the June 2016 thread showed that. I was able to re-load 8in. CA ammo, for example, so long as the depletion was not extreme. Michael looked at the logic and found an error. Now AEs after 1/1/45 in underway Replenishment TFs should reload everything so long as relevant limits have not been exceeded. I'll let you know in five months. [:)]

BBfanboy -> RE: At Sea "Replenishment" of Planes Torpedoes ? (12/12/2016 10:16:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pavel01 quote: ORIGINAL: BillBrown quote: ORIGINAL: pavel01 quote: ORIGINAL: BillBrown Also note that if you have Port Attack orders the torpedo line will be red. It will only be yellow if you have Naval Attack selected and your CV has enough torpedoes. So with a Port Attack only Bombs are used and it ain't possible to use Torpedoes against the Ships anchored in that Port ? I did not say that. Please read section 7.2.1.7 of the manual. I assume that the relevant part of that Section might be where it says : quote: Bombers attacking ports will attack any ships at anchor 50% of the time, however, TF�s docked in port will not be attacked. These attacks use bombs with only a small percentage of torpedo bombers using torpedoes (as it is assumed these ships may be in dry dock or protected by torpedo nets). If there are less than 10 ships at port, the chance of bombers attacking ships lessens with each number less than 10 (so, bombers would be more likely to attack ships if 9 were in port as opposed to 4) The way I understand it, is that therefore, a Port Attack "if" only enemy's Task Forces are docked will result in no attack to Ships. If there is Anchored Ships (not TFs) only 50% of those Attacks will result in an attack against those Ships and the likeliness of torpedoes being used will be very small and the smaller the number of Ships in Port below 10 the lesser the likeliness of an Attack against those Ships. Bottom line is, to my understanding, that if one wanted to have those Ships in Port be sunk, Port Attack would be a very poor Combat choice as opposed to a Naval Attack..... Or did I get it all wrong ? Docked ships are in a TF, therefore only Naval Attack can go after them, not Port Attack. But in port, torpedoes may not work on Naval Attack while bombs can be used. After the first turn IJN strikes, the model seems to be that ports are too shallow to drop torpedoes (even though CA Kumano was sunk by aerial torps while anchored in a port. But a TF that is not docked is called "At Sea" so it can be attacked with torpedoes. The hex is 40 NM across so the port itself only occupies a portion of that and the TF is considered somewhere in the approaches. Port Attack is for ships that are stood down or in the shipyard.

pavel01 -> RE: At Sea "Replenishment" of Planes Torpedoes ? (12/13/2016 8:00:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: pavel01 quote: ORIGINAL: BillBrown quote: ORIGINAL: pavel01 quote: ORIGINAL: BillBrown Also note that if you have Port Attack orders the torpedo line will be red. It will only be yellow if you have Naval Attack selected and your CV has enough torpedoes. So with a Port Attack only Bombs are used and it ain't possible to use Torpedoes against the Ships anchored in that Port ? I did not say that. Please read section 7.2.1.7 of the manual. I assume that the relevant part of that Section might be where it says : quote: Bombers attacking ports will attack any ships at anchor 50% of the time, however, TF�s docked in port will not be attacked. These attacks use bombs with only a small percentage of torpedo bombers using torpedoes (as it is assumed these ships may be in dry dock or protected by torpedo nets). If there are less than 10 ships at port, the chance of bombers attacking ships lessens with each number less than 10 (so, bombers would be more likely to attack ships if 9 were in port as opposed to 4) The way I understand it, is that therefore, a Port Attack "if" only enemy's Task Forces are docked will result in no attack to Ships. If there is Anchored Ships (not TFs) only 50% of those Attacks will result in an attack against those Ships and the likeliness of torpedoes being used will be very small and the smaller the number of Ships in Port below 10 the lesser the likeliness of an Attack against those Ships. Bottom line is, to my understanding, that if one wanted to have those Ships in Port be sunk, Port Attack would be a very poor Combat choice as opposed to a Naval Attack..... Or did I get it all wrong ? Docked ships are in a TF, therefore only Naval Attack can go after them, not Port Attack. But in port, torpedoes may not work on Naval Attack while bombs can be used. After the first turn IJN strikes, the model seems to be that ports are too shallow to drop torpedoes (even though CA Kumano was sunk by aerial torps while anchored in a port. But a TF that is not docked is called "At Sea" so it can be attacked with torpedoes. The hex is 40 NM across so the port itself only occupies a portion of that and the TF is considered somewhere in the approaches. Port Attack is for ships that are stood down or in the shipyard. I am not sure whether I understand correctly that. Does that mean that the very 1st Turn of December 7th, mainly the attack on Pearl Harbour is an "exception" to game mechanics ? That is, on Dec 7th and specifically for the attack to Pearl Harbour a "Port Attack" order will mainly be handled with torpedoes on the Allies Ships docked there regardless of what the Manual says that Bombs would be used instead for that type of Attack ? If so, then, there would be no point of selecting "Naval Attack" for the Japanese Torpedo Bombers attacking Pearl Harbour on Dec 7th as, because of the "exception" to game mechanics, they would still use mainly Torpedoes on that day even when the Order of Battle is for a "Port Attack". Yet, for a second or third attack on the 8th or the 9th the Order of Battle should be changed to "Naval Attack" in order to mainly use Torpedoes "if" that exception is only valid for the very first turn of Dec 7th. Did I get it right or wrong ?

obvert -> RE: At Sea "Replenishment" of Planes Torpedoes ? (12/13/2016 8:19:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pavel01 I am not sure whether I understand correctly that. Does that mean that the very 1st Turn of December 7th, mainly the attack on Pearl Harbour is an "exception" to game mechanics ? That is, on Dec 7th and specifically for the attack to Pearl Harbour a "Port Attack" order will mainly be handled with torpedoes on the Allies Ships docked there regardless of what the Manual says that Bombs would be used instead for that type of Attack ? If so, then, there would be no point of selecting "Naval Attack" for the Japanese Torpedo Bombers attacking Pearl Harbour on Dec 7th as, because of the "exception" to game mechanics, they would still use mainly Torpedoes on that day even when the Order of Battle is for a "Port Attack". Yet, for a second or third attack on the 8th or the 9th the Order of Battle should be changed to "Naval Attack" in order to mainly use Torpedoes "if" that exception is only valid for the very first turn of Dec 7th. Did I get it right or wrong ? Dec 7 PH attack: Use port attack. The Kates will drop torpedoes. BBs will be hit by them. Also, if you want to use bombs the Kates they will drop 800kg AP (in RL converted from artillery, like the one that hit the Arizona). They penetrate BB amor and generally cause mayhem. [:)] Torpedoes are generally a better choice though. All Vals still carry only the 250kg AP bombs. Dec 8, 1941 > onward: You have a choice. 1. Use naval attack if you think the ships will be in TFs. 2. Use port attack if you know you want to definitely hit ships in port. 3. Use naval with secondary priority port attack. This method works to ensure you have a chance to hit ships in TFs or in port, but you run the risk of CAP traps and targeting smaller ships (PT boats later in the war especially) when you're aiming for something else. It's a good option though for Dec 8 at PH if you want a second PH strike, as some healthy ships may run. Just be careful, as they can run at you too. [;)] Both TBs and other torpedo capable 2E bombers may carry 800kg bombs in port attacks at any time if pilot experience is over 80 and die rolls are passed.

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