My experience of Toth (Full Version)

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fuselex -> My experience of Toth (1/18/2017 3:36:43 PM)

Smoke,barbed wire, snipers , multi hex fire groups , etc , etc ,etc.
The list goes on :)
Why do you need the complications ,
I personally like the village/city maps where taking of buildings are the focus.
Maybe Toth will eventually introduce all those features but at this point lets see what happens.
Strip it down and it is just as hard to take a fortified position without
all those fancy pants gadgets :)







rico21 -> RE: My experience of Toth (1/18/2017 4:11:28 PM)

You're going to make a lot of friends![:D]



Hailstone -> RE: My experience of Toth (1/18/2017 10:45:30 PM)

Really fuselex, you wouldn't want to place SMOKE prior to rushing a building with stacks of enemy units inside? In fact, most ASL scenarios are only balanced if those special actions are used. However, I always thought ASL was so much overkill with rules for all kinds of situations you can hardly play ASL without the rule book so I drifted away from ASL and went back to SL which TotH is closer to. I WANT MY SMOKE![sm=00000028.gif]



Corto2London -> RE: My experience of Toth (1/19/2017 9:52:36 AM)

I sincerely believe that game is really nice today, and I enjoy a lot.
But I'm sure it would me much more interesting with smoke, snipers, line of fire, concealment.
Probably smoke would be the most important of those improvements, with snipers.
Those notions are not very compicated, I really believe it wouldn't increase the burden of players (maybe developper yes ;-) ),
but I'm sure it would bring a tone of possibilities for much deeper and fascinating games.
I believe TotH musn't drown players with thousands of rules like ASL, but a few of these rules are essential for the balance of scenarios and for the interest and life time of the game.
My opinion...



rico21 -> RE: My experience of Toth (1/19/2017 9:58:36 AM)

From Stalingrad(German movie)...[:D]

[image]local://upfiles/53841/A30B08CC33A24F4CB7BC564DA2BC142B.jpg[/image]



Peter Fisla -> RE: My experience of Toth (1/19/2017 10:03:58 AM)

That picture Rico21, is my all time second best war movie of all times - Stalingrad (Das Boot is my #1) [:)]

Cheers!



rico21 -> RE: My experience of Toth (1/19/2017 12:41:59 PM)

Absolutely agree Peter, you have very good taste,[&o][&o][&o]
It is also because German cinema is the best in the world,[8D]
Fuselex will tell me that I will make a lot of friends![:D]



Corto2London -> RE: My experience of Toth (1/19/2017 2:00:59 PM)

And otherwise, no serious opinion about the initial topic Rico ?
It's incredible how each and every serious topic on this forum, aimed to improve the game, end up in farce with your funny pictures...



UP844 -> RE: My experience of Toth (1/19/2017 2:20:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21
Fuselex will tell me that I will make a lot of friends![:D]


Yes, lots of them... [:D]

[image]http://www.saak.nl/battlefield%20tour/2008%20england/england1944/england1944%20(20).jpg[/image]



rico21 -> RE: My experience of Toth (1/19/2017 3:21:42 PM)

1- je suis totalement d'accord avec Fuselex
2- Actuellement sans smoke il faut distraire le feu ennemi avec des mouvements de troupes pour que d'autres
puissent approcher et donner l'assaut.
Vaut-il mieux utiliser comme diversion des troupes moyennes qui risquent plus de se faire tuer que des troupes d'élites
mais dont-on peut se passer ou l'inverse?
Avec des smokes, on utilisera et conservera de préférences les troupes qui en possèdent!
On changera la tactique du jeu, est ce vraiment une amélioration?
3- Jusqu'à présent je n'ai trouvé AUCUN jeu qui pouvait simuler la performance de Wittmann à Villers-Bocage!
4- Je préférerais des améliorations dans l'éditeur(nouvelles troupes, nouvelles armes, mais aussi des trucs plus simples
comme pouvoir faire combattre un camp contre lui-même ou pouvoir cacher des troupes, leur donner un nom...etc...)
5- l' humour permet de se détendre après le travail, de ne pas se prendre au sérieux, de pouvoir dire des choses sans se
fâcher, de mettre les rieurs de son côté, de savoir qui on a en face de soi...etc...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1- I totally agree with Fuselex
2- Currently without smoke it is necessary to distract the enemy fire with movements of troops so that others
Can approach and storm.
Is it better to use as a diversion medium-sized troops who are more likely to be killed than elite troops
But which one can do without or the opposite?
With smokes, the troops that own them will be used and retained!
We will change the tactics of the game, is this really an improvement?
3- Until now I have found NO play that could simulate the performance of Wittmann in Villers-Bocage!
4- I would prefer improvements in the editor (new troops, new weapons, but also simpler stuff
Like being able to fight a camp against itself or be able to hide troops, give them a name ... etc ...)
5- humor makes it possible to relax after work, not to take oneself seriously, to be able to say things without
Angry, to put the laughers on his side, to know who we have in front of ourselves ... etc ...
[sm=sign0006.gif]



Hailstone -> RE: My experience of Toth (1/19/2017 11:33:16 PM)

Hey Rico, I do want smoke for the very reasons you don't. I'm using that very tactic of sacrificing units as diversions in place of smoke but that was never my style of play before. Maybe as a veteran that tactic just doesn't feel right because it hits too close to home sort of speak. Maybe, I like to play make-believe and pretend I'm a commander that takes the loss of his troops seriously. So you see Rico, there are other reasons out there which do make smoke an improvement over sacrificing units. I would also like to add that your comic relief is welcomed by me but then people say I have TENDENCIES![sm=cool0013.gif]



fuselex -> RE: My experience of Toth (1/20/2017 2:17:22 PM)

There are things I would like to eventually see implemented into Toth,
But I will leave that up to the developers to decide the path Toth takes :)
But In 2 comments we have - smoke X2 ,snipers , line of fire , and concealment .
I will leave the final comment to hailstone


Really fuselex, you wouldn't want to place SMOKE prior to rushing a building with stacks of enemy units inside?
In fact, most ASL scenarios are only balanced if those special actions are used.
However, I always thought ASL was so much overkill with rules for all kinds of situations you can hardly play ASL
without the rule book
so I drifted away from ASL and went back to SL which TotH is closer to. I WANT MY SMOKE

I really couldn`t have said it better :)






rico21 -> RE: My experience of Toth (1/20/2017 2:26:34 PM)

I will leave the final comment to rico21
1- I totally agree with Fuselex
I really couldn`t have said it better :) [&o][sm=00000436.gif][:D]



marcdhanna -> RE: My experience of Toth (1/21/2017 8:37:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Corto2London

I sincerely believe that game is really nice today, and I enjoy a lot.
But I'm sure it would me much more interesting with smoke, snipers, line of fire, concealment.
Probably smoke would be the most important of those improvements, with snipers.
Those notions are not very compicated, I really believe it wouldn't increase the burden of players (maybe developper yes ;-) ),
but I'm sure it would bring a tone of possibilities for much deeper and fascinating games.
I believe TotH musn't drown players with thousands of rules like ASL, but a few of these rules are essential for the balance of scenarios and for the interest and life time of the game.
My opinion...


Your comments are well-stated, thanks!

Players should want smoke because during WW2 it was an oft-used tactic. It's an obvious improvement that's going to add a more realistic touch to the game. Concealment is another. Snipers could be randomly simulated without sniper counters and other random events added (hate to say it but similar to those in SASL).

The whole point of a computer game is to NOT drown players with rules, which is why the game should continue to divest from ASL as much as possible. Supporting these mods that make the game look like ASL is very much a two-edged sword for the growth of this game but it may be too late as it seems to be an embedded feature for promoting sales.

Glad you are willing to express your opinion in spite of (or because of [:D]) the regular dog and pony show we get from the game fans that are the regular posters in here. Don't get me wrong, the fans are great and core to making this one of the best games ever. But there is a lot of room to grow before TotH becomes one of the great tactical games and it's important to provide a realistic view of what we see and what we should ask for.

Personally, I don't want a watered down tactical game just to seemingly make it easier. Rico is right, now we have to sacrifice squads to gain position. This may have been true of some of the more smoke-less armies such as the Russians, but I don't want to play the American forces as if they were Russian conscripts. It doesn't model the tactics correctly. Lot's of room for improvement even over how ASL handles nations tactically, too. This is the place for it to happen, should Matrix and the Developer share the same vision of it's potential.



Hailstone -> RE: My experience of Toth (1/21/2017 2:54:41 PM)

Fuselex, you created an excellent thread which exposes many of the insights
of the players in this forum. Seems many of the players aren't
asking for much to enhance their experience while others like yourself find
TotH fine as it stands now. I would be most happy if I can pick up an ASL scenario
and recreate it as the author intended rather than to have to make
compromises in an attempt at play balance.

These are the topics the software developer(s) need to focus on. Better yet, these
are the topics the developer(s) should start themselves for the feedback! Peter,
has done that very thing when we were asked for our preference with the displayed
attack percentages and difficulty settings. Thanks Peter and please continue to
solicite our opinions.



fuselex -> RE: My experience of Toth (1/22/2017 10:24:27 AM)

I probably should revisit my comments:)

why do you need the complications-
Implying that any thing else added to the game would bog it down ,
Complications was a really bad choice of words -

At this point of the game , I figure let the developers play with the basics before implementing
all of the features we ask for ( myself included)
I would love to see a lot of the suggestions by the community added to the game .
But being realistic ,
The smoke, barbed wire . snipers , multi hex fire groups, etc are a long way off.
The number one complaint that I have read refers to the AI .

Adding all the of those desirable things will cause all sorts of problems.
Let Toth catch up to what we would all like .
I for one am willing to turn a blind eye to some imperfections to have a bit of fun .





fuselex -> RE: My experience of Toth (1/22/2017 10:41:46 AM)

Another quote that I totally agree with-

~ Don't get me wrong, the fans are great and core to making this one of the best games ever.
But there is a lot of room to grow before TotH becomes one of the great tactical games
and it's important to provide a realistic view of what we see and what we should ask for. ~




rico21 -> RE: My experience of Toth (1/22/2017 10:55:34 AM)

we want:

French unit
U-boat
Smoke
E-toth
Last update
End ww2
Xxx

I totally agree with Fuselex and I would add that Peter has implemented 70% of ASL in 10 years.
The game is 1 year old.
It still remains 2 years at least to wait for the rest!
What if we laughed a little while waiting?[:D]




wodin -> RE: My experience of Toth (2/9/2017 4:05:36 PM)

Link below to book of the film...Book came first:)

LINK
quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

That picture Rico21, is my all time second best war movie of all times - Stalingrad (Das Boot is my #1) [:)]

Cheers!




asl3d -> RE: My experience of Toth (2/9/2017 7:31:01 PM)

It's true that once the heart of software (AI) has been designed, it's difficult to attack a major change without making a great effort of development.

It is possible that the Smoke will complicate the life to the designer. However, here I propose some advances that perhaps are not so critical:

1.- Extra information about Vehicles, Artillery and SW. The idea is to try to reproduce ASL Chapter H. I do not want to say that the rules are changed by the particular characteristics of each unit. Only provide historical information about the unit, a larger and higher quality additional image, etc. This does not increase the playbility but if it makes the game is even more attractive.
2.- To be able to select different types of Theaters of Operations. That is to say, to be able to select a specific type of file "Terrain" in a concrete Scenario, without needing to change it in the folder Graphics. It would not even be important to change the rules for each Theater of Operations. What I propose is to increase the variety of terrains and units without increasing the work of the IA.
3.- Hedges and Walls. Surely this will be a toothache for the designer but they are essential elements of the Battlefield.

Easy!!



GJK -> RE: My experience of Toth (2/10/2017 10:19:12 AM)

If Peter could do 3 things, this would be a killer game and would be as complete as far as the ASL Starter Kits go: 1. Add smoke. It's essential in ASL and I don't know why he doesn't have it in here. 2. Rotate the silly tanks instead of using the little arrows. It's minor but it's annoying. Additional: add turret markers/counters while you're at it. 3. Just go ahead and admit that it's based off of ASL and show the charts and the dice rolls. He probably never will for fear of a lawsuit but that's really a game killer for me.

Too many times see what would amount to a 2+2 shot break both squads and a leader in the AFPh (sorry, the Advancing Fire Segment). I'd really like to see the dice roll on some of those shots but that may open up another whole can of worms for Peter if people start to perceive (real or not) that the dice roller is wonky or skewed somehow.

Still, I hold out promise of what the future will bring for the game - I can deal with the not so elegant GUI. The game is very close to being solitaire ASL Starter kit, it just needs those three things above. Then he could move on to adding more items from full ASL if that were the desire. My $.02.



midgard30 -> RE: My experience of Toth (2/11/2017 5:24:19 PM)

Hi,

I didn't read much about mortar units in this forum and I'm wondering if it's a concern for other players. I never played ASL, and I don't know how it was implemented, but the fact that they don't have any spotters make them regular guns. For example in Defending Meximieux this mortar placed in the town center has no LOS to any enemy units and can't provide any fire in the first round on advancing german units.

CoH has an elegant rule for indirect fire where the unit LOS can start up to 2 hex further in its arc of fire. In TotH, mortar feels like an incomplete unit.



[image]local://upfiles/17487/C9234A0A58D64612BC94EB1D0174346D.jpg[/image]



Gerry4321 -> RE: My experience of Toth (2/11/2017 5:26:40 PM)

IIRC in ASL mortars can use direct fire on sighted units but it also has the option for spotters. Hopefully that will be added.



GJK -> RE: My experience of Toth (2/12/2017 4:20:30 AM)

Yes, full ASL has spotters for mortars (ASL Starter Kits do not however).



asl3d -> RE: My experience of Toth (2/14/2017 9:31:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: asl3d

It's true that once the heart of software (AI) has been designed, it's difficult to attack a major change without making a great effort of development.

It is possible that the Smoke will complicate the life to the designer. However, here I propose some advances that perhaps are not so critical:

1.- Extra information about Vehicles, Artillery and SW. The idea is to try to reproduce ASL Chapter H. I do not want to say that the rules are changed by the particular characteristics of each unit. Only provide historical information about the unit, a larger and higher quality additional image, etc. This does not increase the playbility but if it makes the game is even more attractive.
2.- To be able to select different types of Theaters of Operations. That is to say, to be able to select a specific type of file "Terrain" in a concrete Scenario, without needing to change it in the folder Graphics. It would not even be important to change the rules for each Theater of Operations. What I propose is to increase the variety of terrains and units without increasing the work of the IA.
3.- Hedges and Walls. Surely this will be a toothache for the designer but they are essential elements of the Battlefield.

Easy!!



Here’s a proposal that can improve the game interface.

It is about providing the relevant information of the Vehicles and the Artillery without having to consult tables or to remember the summarized characteristics that are in the counters.

The mechanics follow three steps.

Step 1: click on the hexagon on the Tactical Map.

Step 2: Click on the unit that to be consulted in the Unit Control Panel.

Step 3 (this is the newness): In the Action Log Windows is displayed the "Unit Card", with all the information about the vehicle or Artillery, as well as an image of the unit.

Here's an example.




[image]local://upfiles/56084/93BAA2B6E1BD41CD84184E893FB2D8B8.jpg[/image]



Gerry4321 -> RE: My experience of Toth (2/14/2017 11:12:26 PM)

A lovely idea. But I would try and make it smaller and maybe have it floatable (is that a word here?) so that people can resize it and move it to areas of blank space.



asl3d -> RE: My experience of Toth (2/16/2017 6:56:34 PM)

An evolution of the idea of post # 25 would be to act in the Unit Control Panel.

That is, in step 2 it would display directly the counters as they are seen in the Tactical Map, just like with the Pop-Up Window, thus releasing the mouse.

Here is the example of post # 25 with the Unit Control Panel transformed.



[image]local://upfiles/56084/75FE767D3B5646FDBD8C7CFE7B9526FF.jpg[/image]



Rosseau -> RE: My experience of Toth (2/16/2017 10:24:23 PM)

A lot of work, but so was your counters mod! Not sure how much Peter would have to do assuming you could help with the graphics part.



GJK -> RE: My experience of Toth (2/16/2017 11:35:18 PM)

I don't think that Peter can show actual values for the same reason (whatever that reason) is that he can't show an IFT or the dice rolls. Somebody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong-



RFalvo69 -> RE: My experience of Toth (2/17/2017 5:52:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: marcdhanna
The whole point of a computer game is to NOT drown players with rules, which is why the game should continue to divest from ASL as much as possible. Supporting these mods that make the game look like ASL is very much a two-edged sword for the growth of this game but it may be too late as it seems to be an embedded feature for promoting sales.


Don't post this on the World in Flames forum [:D]

Anyway, Steel Panthers had smoke, snipers and concealment - and people were still able to play it. This because the presence of these things is logical on a battlefield, and so you simply refer to your experience with other tactical wargames and weave the needed rules into the new one.



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