How to deal with British fleet? (Full Version)

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AnimalAl -> How to deal with British fleet? (1/23/2017 1:04:22 AM)

Hi - new player, still figuring out the game. I've made some bad mistakes with naval forces as the Axis, basically lost the German fleet in 1940 in the North Sea and lost the Italian fleet in the Med against the British fleet. Can you offer any advice? Basically do the germans/italians stay in harbor until the naval warfare plus-ups take effect?

I'm more of a ground guy but still figuring out the mechanics of the game. Thinking I am not applying my research right. Couldn't take Paris because I took too long with Poland and walking back to France. Thanks.



bobarossa -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/23/2017 1:09:36 AM)

I managed to succeed in the Mediterranean by keeping Italian fleet in northern Adriatic until France surrendered, then moving German bombers down to assist.

I'm sure someone will post a better and more detailed way to defeat British navy there.



DeriKuk -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/23/2017 6:57:53 AM)

quote:

keeping Italian fleet in northern Adriatic until France surrendered


That is pretty much the only sensible strategy. Use it every time . . . for the same result.



OxfordGuy3 -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/23/2017 11:26:41 AM)

If you can commit enough air power it's fairly easy to take Malta and you don't even need to risk the Italian fleet much. Once you take Malta you have an additional two ports to use (although you can't repair units to full strength there) and denying it's use to the Brits makes it much more risky for them to operate fleets in the central Med. Taking Alexandria will also help.



Bylandt11 -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/23/2017 11:58:02 AM)

I think you pointed out you own mistake. Don't sail the German fleet into the North Sea. You shouldn't protect the Norwegian trade route until it gets re-routed after the Norwegian conquest. Even then: play conservatively. If you really plan on a confrontation with the British fleet, do it after the Russian ships in the Baltic have been destroyed, the Tirpitz and Bismarck have joined and you have all of your (upgraded) U-boats ready to help.

Italian fleet: comparable advice. You're in no hurry. Be sure that all ships are at max strength before venturing out. Hug the african coast and follow behind your advancing troops with the sub as vanguard. Wait until the British attack. Destroy the 2 carriers first. Repair after taking damage.



ILCK -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/24/2017 12:38:27 AM)

Never engage the French navy. Waste of MPP.

Best thing to do is to abuse the ability to sail out, attack and return -- especially in the Med. Subs are great at savaging the U.K. Surface fleet if you can get enough together because most of their DDs will be prowling the Atlantic. I don't like using air power because that is usually committed to the Eastern Front.

Another thing to ponder is if it is really worth fighting it at all. If you are gonna do Sea Lion then you need to fight the navy. If not, it really isn't worth the effort and I use them German fleet to do no more than sink the Baltic fleet and a few units raiding Russian convoys.



James Taylor -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/24/2017 2:18:18 AM)

I wish we could do something about the French fleet quandry. Maybe the Royal Navy would stand to gain a few naval units from French defections if the Allied player endeavored to save as much of the fleet as possible.



James Taylor -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/24/2017 2:20:17 AM)

Or, maybe a USA readiness penalty if the French fleet is handled recklessly.



ILCK -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/24/2017 3:36:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: James Taylor

I wish we could do something about the French fleet quandry. Maybe the Royal Navy would stand to gain a few naval units from French defections if the Allied player endeavored to save as much of the fleet as possible.



I think there is a fair argument because of the game-Ness of it all that the French navy should be drastically reduced at the start.



Seminole -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/24/2017 4:42:05 AM)

I thought part of the point of these kinds of games was to offer the opportunity for taking different actions than were historically executed.

Is there a reason the French Navy couldn't have sallied forth to battle their invaders?
I can understand debate over the relative strength of the French navy vis-a-vis other powers in the game at the outset, but why handcuff the players when a major point of the game is to explore the What Ifs?



warspite1 -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/24/2017 5:03:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

I thought part of the point of these kinds of games was to offer the opportunity for taking different actions than were historically executed.

Is there a reason the French Navy couldn't have sallied forth to battle their invaders?
I can understand debate over the relative strength of the French navy vis-a-vis other powers in the game at the outset, but why handcuff the players when a major point of the game is to explore the What Ifs?
warspite1

Whilst I agree with you on the 'what if's' point, I think the French Navy is a little different - and is a problem with all strategic games of this nature.

The problem being that the French Fleet isn't used to explore what if's - it is used as a suicide squad to take as many German and/or Italian ships down as possible.

It shouldn't mean one can't use the French Fleet, but restrictions should be placed on them to stop gamey situations. For example in my current game the AI appears to have simply parked the French Fleet off Heligoland. In MWIF a common approach is to put some French cruisers into the Baltic. These are both suicide missions in real life and would not have been carried out for that reason. Hell, the British realised in WWI that a close blockade of Germany was impossible with technology having moved on (subs, torpedo boats, aircraft, mines etc) - let alone that these had moved on further by WWII.



OxfordGuy3 -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/24/2017 11:53:59 AM)

Maybe the loss of French ships should have at least a larger affect on NM than they do currently, possibly also triggering some bad events for the French?



rjh1971 -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/25/2017 2:07:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ILCK

Never engage the French navy. Waste of MPP.

Best thing to do is to abuse the ability to sail out, attack and return -- especially in the Med. Subs are great at savaging the U.K. Surface fleet if you can get enough together because most of their DDs will be prowling the Atlantic. I don't like using air power because that is usually committed to the Eastern Front.

Another thing to ponder is if it is really worth fighting it at all. If you are gonna do Sea Lion then you need to fight the navy. If not, it really isn't worth the effort and I use them German fleet to do no more than sink the Baltic fleet and a few units raiding Russian convoys.


I found very useful hammering the British fleet when ever possible, this hasn't got to be in a single big battle that probably is bound to be lost, but sinking individually units all through '39 and '43 may give you superiority at sea which will prevent the massive landings the AI does in 1943. I've always sunk the amphibious transports before they were able to land, those who manage to get ashore were quickly dispatched by the very few forces in France. This way I did not have to transfer units from Russia to France.
I'm afraid the Germans are a dead duck if faced by a human opponent. Those transports won't all head straight northern France, Portugal or N. Africa, the coast will be much harder to guard properly.

Regards



The Land -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/25/2017 4:59:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

I thought part of the point of these kinds of games was to offer the opportunity for taking different actions than were historically executed.

Is there a reason the French Navy couldn't have sallied forth to battle their invaders?
I can understand debate over the relative strength of the French navy vis-a-vis other powers in the game at the outset, but why handcuff the players when a major point of the game is to explore the What Ifs?


The problem is that the "What if the French fleet mounted suicide attacks against any Axis target it could find?" scenario is an inevitability in the game at the moment, not an experiment. There is no cost to the Allied player to do it - so every Allied player will do it. It's different to the "What if Germany invaded Turkey?" scenario (or many other ahistoric scenarios), where the game mechanics impose a cost.

Obviously, it's difficult to work out what appropriate counterfactual costs might be. Personally I'd suggest that if the French navy takes significant casualties then Vichy should becomes a more pro-German regime - making it easier for the remaining ships to fall into German hands, or making it more likely that Vichy supply land units to the Axis.... Delayed American intervention might also be appropriate.




IainMcNeil -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/25/2017 5:15:25 PM)

Definitely wait it out in the early war and just do a bit of raiding with the subs but remember to keep moving and avoid moving down the convoy routes or you bump in to escorts. Then when you have the tech - upgraded and experienced subs are lethal. The gain xp for attacking convoys so its a good way to level up and once you get to advanced subs 2 with a level 3 sub, even destroyers fear them unless their ASW is heavily upgraded! With a full compliment of super subs I managed to take out 3 carriers in one turn when hunting in packs.



Seminole -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/25/2017 6:37:10 PM)

quote:

The problem is that the "What if the French fleet mounted suicide attacks against any Axis target it could find?" scenario is an inevitability in the game at the moment, not an experiment.


[image]http://i.imgur.com/lMefZg7.jpg[/image]



crispy131313 -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/25/2017 6:46:19 PM)

I wonder if it is possible to turn the table so to speak and place very high morale losses for the loss of French Naval ships, which in turn could lead to French surrender as the Germans approach Paris rather then capturing the capital. It would certainly be more entertaining if the French ships were targets of the Axis rather then an avoidance at all costs.



warspite1 -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/25/2017 7:33:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crispy131313

I wonder if it is possible to turn the table so to speak and place very high morale losses for the loss of French Naval ships, which in turn could lead to French surrender as the Germans approach Paris rather then capturing the capital. It would certainly be more entertaining if the French ships were targets of the Axis rather then an avoidance at all costs.
warspite1

The only downside of that is then things go the other way and the French simply refuse to use them. The French did of course use their navy, and the loss of ships for valid reasons - U-boat war with destroyers or in the Western Med vs the RM, or in the Atlantic hunting surface raiders are sound reasons and should not incur a penalty (or a sensible one if the new Dunkerques are sunk). But if any warship gets sunk within x hexes of the German coast then morale falls off a cliff cos they shouldn't be there!



crispy131313 -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/25/2017 7:37:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: crispy131313

I wonder if it is possible to turn the table so to speak and place very high morale losses for the loss of French Naval ships, which in turn could lead to French surrender as the Germans approach Paris rather then capturing the capital. It would certainly be more entertaining if the French ships were targets of the Axis rather then an avoidance at all costs.
warspite1

The only downside of that is then things go the other way and the French simply refuse to use them. The French did of course use their navy, and the loss of ships for valid reasons - U-boat war with destroyers or in the Western Med vs the RM, or in the Atlantic hunting surface raiders are sound reasons and should not incur a penalty (or a sensible one if the new Dunkerques are sunk). But if any warship gets sunk within x hexes of the German coast then morale falls off a cliff cos they shouldn't be there!



Naturally I wasn't suggesting the loss of a ship means surrender, but rather if the entire French Fleet was sent into suicide mode against Italy this would be a huge morale loss. As the game is right now it makes no sense to even attack an adjent French ship.



warspite1 -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/25/2017 7:40:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crispy131313


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: crispy131313

I wonder if it is possible to turn the table so to speak and place very high morale losses for the loss of French Naval ships, which in turn could lead to French surrender as the Germans approach Paris rather then capturing the capital. It would certainly be more entertaining if the French ships were targets of the Axis rather then an avoidance at all costs.
warspite1

The only downside of that is then things go the other way and the French simply refuse to use them. The French did of course use their navy, and the loss of ships for valid reasons - U-boat war with destroyers or in the Western Med vs the RM, or in the Atlantic hunting surface raiders are sound reasons and should not incur a penalty (or a sensible one if the new Dunkerques are sunk). But if any warship gets sunk within x hexes of the German coast then morale falls off a cliff cos they shouldn't be there!



Naturally I wasn't suggesting the loss of a ship means surrender, but rather if the entire French Fleet was sent into suicide mode against Italy this would be a huge morale loss. As the game is right now it makes no sense to even attack an adjent French ship.
warspite1

Indeed - Hubert and Bill have just got to get the balance right (as Depeche Mode once sang [:)])



crispy131313 -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/25/2017 7:47:22 PM)

Another alternative solution would be the detection of a high concentration of the French Fleet in the Med. and perhaps giving the Italians the option to delay war entry due to the suspected ambush of their navy.



BillRunacre -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/26/2017 3:00:17 PM)

Hi

With the engine as it currently is, the only way we could make France lose more National Morale when its ships are sunk would be to increase the MPP cost of these units, and I don't think that's a satisfactory solution.

I have been thinking of what can be done to reduce the potential for the French fleet being used in a sacrificial mode, and it seems to me that changing their starting strengths, dispositions and arrival times could have some impact.

For instance, at the moment all French ships start on the map at full strength, meaning they are ready to go into combat right from day one.

But if some of them arrived slightly later, and/or at slightly lower strength, then organising a mission would take longer and the French might then want to consider investing some MPPs into it to make it more effective.

Bill




OxfordGuy3 -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/26/2017 4:05:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Runacre

Hi

With the engine as it currently is, the only way we could make France lose more National Morale when its ships are sunk would be to increase the MPP cost of these units, and I don't think that's a satisfactory solution.

I have been thinking of what can be done to reduce the potential for the French fleet being used in a sacrificial mode, and it seems to me that changing their starting strengths, dispositions and arrival times could have some impact.

For instance, at the moment all French ships start on the map at full strength, meaning they are ready to go into combat right from day one.

But if some of them arrived slightly later, and/or at slightly lower strength, then organising a mission would take longer and the French might then want to consider investing some MPPs into it to make it more effective.



I think if the French naval units were not full strength on arrival, then the only ones any Allied player are likley to spend MPPs on are the DDs (maybe CLs), for anti-sub operations. Not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, though!



BillRunacre -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/27/2017 2:11:28 PM)

The key being that any French capital ships sent into combat at less than full strength will be easier to defeat.

I'm not thinking of all of their navy, but I did some reading and found that of the named vessels that are on the map at the beginning, quite a number of them underwent some sort of repairs or refitting, even in a limited way, in the first months of the war.

Anyway, that's where my thoughts are at the moment on something I could implement. It's only a moderate change but then the idea is only to moderate the use of the French navy. [;)]



Capitaine -> RE: How to deal with British fleet? (1/28/2017 7:11:14 PM)

Would it be difficult to code a "range-from-port" limit for French naval units? Something to give them freedom to act within their area but not range far abroad to suicide themselves on cowering enemy units.



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