Difficult to use subs

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woods -> Difficult to use subs (1/31/2017 7:48:52 AM)
Somehow I find the use of subs in AE is really tough. Most of the time they sit in port with the most aggressive commanders - surely ahistorical. How do you use them?

Odin -> RE: Difficult to use subs (1/31/2017 7:59:06 AM)
Don´t let them operate on automatic mode. Give them a patrol area yourself.

Libertate -> RE: Difficult to use subs (1/31/2017 8:03:57 AM)
Yup. Turn auto sub ops off; deploy them to choke points and known sea lanes.

woods -> RE: Difficult to use subs (1/31/2017 8:32:01 AM)
Roger guys. I have tried using them to mine ports but that is quite hazardous.[:@]

LargeSlowTarget -> RE: Difficult to use subs (1/31/2017 10:48:38 AM)
Forum wisdom recommends not to automate anything in the game - no auto-subs, no auto-convoys or computer-controlled TFs (except "CS convoys" between two ports defined by the player). If you invest the time to manage everything yourself, results are usually more rewarding. Re sub-minelaying: Enemy ports, esp. the larger and more important ones, are protected by defensive minefields - dangerous for your subs. I would also expect enemy minesweepers to be on station at larger ports, so any minefield laid by your subs will be discovered and swept quickly - a waste of precious mines. It might be a better idea to lay mines at choke points with a dot base (minefields decay rapidly in the open sea) - but these are not abundant and experienced players may keep minesweepers on station at known chokepoints as well. Some players use the TF routing instructions to make their convoys hug the coastline in order to keep them in the "protection" of shallow water (it is not really a protection against sub attacks, but it increases the chances for Japanese ASW to do some good with the type 95 depth charges most escorts are limited to - which only have shallow depth settings). Some well-placed minefields in coastal dot bases can help to counter that tactic, but the counter-counter is the inclusion of minesweepers in the convoy. In short, do not expect too much from offensive minefields.

JohnDillworth -> RE: Difficult to use subs (1/31/2017 12:33:13 PM)
aggressive commanders, use "patrol around zone" and make that zone a choke point. Against the Jap AI, and maybe many opponents the deep water near Japan (Tokyo and Kobe) are target rich environments. South China Sea and any blue water choke points. Light blue water is shallow. Might be plenty of targets but you subs are more vulnerable. South China Sea is always good. As you get naval search coverage over zones your contact rate for subs will go up. If you are playing against the Jap AI you should be able to eliminate most of the Japanese merchant fleet including tankers by the beginning of 1944

crsutton -> RE: Difficult to use subs (1/31/2017 1:38:20 PM)
Yep, like they say. Don't use anything automatic. Vs the AI go for regular shipping lanes. Vs an human, you might have more success going after his warships and supporting your own.

AW1Steve -> RE: Difficult to use subs (1/31/2017 1:55:58 PM)
To me the most important use of subs was the originally intended one....scouts for the fleet. In both cases (allied or axis) there is never enough available patrol aircraft , and some debate about the "gameyness" of using surface ships...(AM's AKL's or YP's) as a picket line. I've never encountered any player who had trouble with using subs. And for the early part of the war , USN subs are pretty much "toothless". So picket lines are invaluable for warning you that your about to get a surprise visit from your opponents CV's. Your subs are at sea , gaining experience , they provide a warning or scouting line , and every now and then they take a shot at a passing ship. There are worse things you could do with a sub , and picket lines are generally in deep water , and away from enemy hunter killer groups or patrol aircraft. [:)]

LargeSlowTarget -> RE: Difficult to use subs (1/31/2017 3:11:00 PM)
There is nothing "gamey" about using AMs, YPs, PBs etc. as pickets - they are warships. However, some (me included) consider using civilian ships like xAKLs for picket duty as being "gamey." I find as Japanese player that submarines become increasingly important as pickets as well, as the war drags on. Never enough patrol aircraft to cover the periphery of the Greater Co-Prosperity Sphere, surface pickets don't survive long, and sending subs on offensive missions to hunt convoys or warships is fast becoming suicidal starting 1943.

Revthought -> RE: Difficult to use subs (1/31/2017 5:51:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: woods Somehow I find the use of subs in AE is really tough. Most of the time they sit in port with the most aggressive commanders - surely ahistorical. How do you use them? 1. Don't let them operate on automatic mode, unless you really need a heavy patrol around New Zealand (as the Allies). [X(] a. Use the "set patrol zone" task force function to set a patrol zone. Starting out, you can use "patrol around target," but as time goes by you'll get better at predicting where your opponent/the AIs ships will end up. Once that happens, set your own. 2. Be sure that you're setting your sub patrol TFs to react. They only have a max react of 1, but having it set is critical to getting them to close with radar/plane contacts that aren't in the same hex they are. quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton Yep, like they say. Don't use anything automatic. Vs the AI go for regular shipping lanes. Vs an human, you might have more success going after his warships and supporting your own. Human players have convoys too. The trick is to figure out which shipping lanes your opponent is using in a PBEM as they are going to be fewer in number than the AI and most likely utilize much different ports.

woods -> RE: Difficult to use subs (1/31/2017 9:40:37 PM)
Thanks guys for your posts. Excellent advice. [&o]

bradfordkay -> RE: Difficult to use subs (2/1/2017 3:07:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Revthought quote: ORIGINAL: woods Somehow I find the use of subs in AE is really tough. Most of the time they sit in port with the most aggressive commanders - surely ahistorical. How do you use them? 1. Don't let them operate on automatic mode, unless you really need a heavy patrol around New Zealand (as the Allies). [X(] a. Use the "set patrol zone" task force function to set a patrol zone. Starting out, you can use "patrol around target," but as time goes by you'll get better at predicting where your opponent/the AIs ships will end up. Once that happens, set your own. 2. Be sure that you're setting your sub patrol TFs to react. They only have a max react of 1, but having it set is critical to getting them to close with radar/plane contacts that aren't in the same hex they are. quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton Yep, like they say. Don't use anything automatic. Vs the AI go for regular shipping lanes. Vs an human, you might have more success going after his warships and supporting your own. Human players have convoys too. The trick is to figure out which shipping lanes your opponent is using in a PBEM as they are going to be fewer in number than the AI and most likely utilize much different ports. And a smart opponent will change them up on a regular basis so that you have to keep searching for them.

rustysi -> RE: Difficult to use subs (2/1/2017 5:00:12 AM)
quote: And a smart opponent will change them up on a regular basis so that you have to keep searching for them. Or to defend them so heavily that their penetration is next to impossible. Maybe a combination of both.

crsutton -> RE: Difficult to use subs (2/1/2017 1:20:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget There is nothing "gamey" about using AMs, YPs, PBs etc. as pickets - they are warships. However, some (me included) consider using civilian ships like xAKLs for picket duty as being "gamey." I find as Japanese player that submarines become increasingly important as pickets as well, as the war drags on. Never enough patrol aircraft to cover the periphery of the Greater Co-Prosperity Sphere, surface pickets don't survive long, and sending subs on offensive missions to hunt convoys or warships is fast becoming suicidal starting 1943. Good point and don't forget to replace them with cautious commanders if you are leaning that way.

Revthought -> RE: Difficult to use subs (2/1/2017 2:43:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rustysi quote: And a smart opponent will change them up on a regular basis so that you have to keep searching for them. Or to defend them so heavily that their penetration is next to impossible. Maybe a combination of both. quote: ur sub patrol TFs to react. They only have a max re Yes, this happens, I can attest. :D That being said, I adjust my sub patrols almost every turn, which helps significantly. I also tend to concentrate my subs, and once I see my opponent is heavily protecting a convoy, it usually means they've pulled escorts from elsewhere to deal with my subs... so I move my patrols and pick on the now lightly guarded convoys. I have also found that the subs are very useful at picking on supply runs to island garrisons that players (even I'm guilty of this from time to time) think they can get away with sending unguarded AKLs to do the job. What I do not think has been said yet: 1. if you're playing the Allies, during the early war it's also important to think about which subs have which torpedo types. A quick rule of thumb is that Dutch, British, and American S boats have torpedoes that are not effected by high Allied dud rates. So the Dutch and the British subs are your go-to for actually sinking ships. So too are the American S-boats, but they're more tricky to use because of their very short range. 2. Again, if you are playing the Allies, you have very few subs that can convert into SSTs--Narwhal, Nautilus, Argonaut. I usually park these in Sydney or Pearl until they can be converted. They are a rare commodity.

Oberst_Klink -> RE: Difficult to use subs (2/1/2017 3:34:16 PM)
I am a strong advocate of using subs, regardless which side. The IJN subs have the advantage of long range as well as the capability of float planes, make use of them for distant patrols. As for the short range subs, the RO-series, I usually using them as screen or let them operate from an advanced base with an AS and AKE present, plus the extensive use of long range PA or FP; in a way like the Germans used the Fw-200C Condor for long range reece in order to spot convoys and direct the subs to the 'hunting grounds'. It does pay off to select proper aggressive commanders and rotate your subs on frequent base. I have a good tutorial AAR about sub an ASW warfare. It's in German but G00gle translate should give you an idea how it works. http://www.si-games.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28538&page=66 Feedback appreciated. Klink, Oberst

crsutton -> RE: Difficult to use subs (2/1/2017 4:19:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Revthought quote: ORIGINAL: rustysi quote: And a smart opponent will change them up on a regular basis so that you have to keep searching for them. Or to defend them so heavily that their penetration is next to impossible. Maybe a combination of both. quote: ur sub patrol TFs to react. They only have a max re Yes, this happens, I can attest. :D That being said, I adjust my sub patrols almost every turn, which helps significantly. I also tend to concentrate my subs, and once I see my opponent is heavily protecting a convoy, it usually means they've pulled escorts from elsewhere to deal with my subs... so I move my patrols and pick on the now lightly guarded convoys. I have also found that the subs are very useful at picking on supply runs to island garrisons that players (even I'm guilty of this from time to time) think they can get away with sending unguarded AKLs to do the job. What I do not think has been said yet: 1. if you're playing the Allies, during the early war it's also important to think about which subs have which torpedo types. A quick rule of thumb is that Dutch, British, and American S boats have torpedoes that are not effected by high Allied dud rates. So the Dutch and the British subs are your go-to for actually sinking ships. So too are the American S-boats, but they're more tricky to use because of their very short range. 2. Again, if you are playing the Allies, you have very few subs that can convert into SSTs--Narwhal, Nautilus, Argonaut. I usually park these in Sydney or Pearl until they can be converted. They are a rare commodity. Well, you need to use all your subs-even the American subs. The one saving grace is that Japanese ASW in the first years is pretty horrendous as well. I find the SST pretty useless for the Americans. APD and later small landing craft can do the job.

bradfordkay -> RE: Difficult to use subs (2/1/2017 4:24:45 PM)
I like to keep the Argonaut as a minelayer for the nuisance factor. She can lay her eggs in randomly chosen enemy ports which has hte effect of keeping him off guard. His minesweepers can't be in all his ports, so the appearance of mines where he doesn't expect them is a good move, IMO. I only wish that there was an option to keep her as a minelayer but be able to upgrade her to having radar.

Schorsch -> RE: Difficult to use subs (2/1/2017 6:14:27 PM)
@ oberst klink i knew i know your nickname from somewhere... greetings from another hesse of the si-forums (im not active there anymore)

Revthought -> RE: Difficult to use subs (2/1/2017 7:12:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton Well, you need to use all your subs-even the American subs. The one saving grace is that Japanese ASW in the first years is pretty horrendous as well. I find the SST pretty useless for the Americans. APD and later small landing craft can do the job. You can use all of the American subs, and I do. It's just the British, Dutch, and S boats are the most reliable in terms of sinking ships while the Allied dud-rate malus is still in effect. So, for example, if you wanted to use subs like others here have suggested as pickets rather than in a true sea denial role in the early part of the war, knowing that the Dutch, British, and S boats have halfway decent torpedoes might help you decide which submarines you want to use on picket duty, and which you want to use for commerce raiding. As for the SSTs, I understand what you are saying. I will just say that the number of APDs and SSTs you get playing the Allies is small, and you won't get any other Allied SSTs. You can also convert them early enough (I believe April of 1942) that the SSTs can come in handy actually running supplies to isolated garrisons (or evacuating them) in areas it is still difficult for the Allies to resupply/evacuate using "traditional" methods. Incidentally, because of how few APDs the Allies get, I recommend you convert every destroyer capable of converting to APDs. You usually have the choice of converting to an APD or DE. You'll eventually be swimming in DEs, but your fast transport capabilities--as the Allies--will always be limited.

AW1Steve -> RE: Difficult to use subs (2/2/2017 3:55:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Revthought quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton Well, you need to use all your subs-even the American subs. The one saving grace is that Japanese ASW in the first years is pretty horrendous as well. I find the SST pretty useless for the Americans. APD and later small landing craft can do the job. You can use all of the American subs, and I do. It's just the British, Dutch, and S boats are the most reliable in terms of sinking ships while the Allied dud-rate malus is still in effect. So, for example, if you wanted to use subs like others here have suggested as pickets rather than in a true sea denial role in the early part of the war, knowing that the Dutch, British, and S boats have halfway decent torpedoes might help you decide which submarines you want to use on picket duty, and which you want to use for commerce raiding. As for the SSTs, I understand what you are saying. I will just say that the number of APDs and SSTs you get playing the Allies is small, and you won't get any other Allied SSTs. You can also convert them early enough (I believe April of 1942) that the SSTs can come in handy actually running supplies to isolated garrisons (or evacuating them) in areas it is still difficult for the Allies to resupply/evacuate using "traditional" methods. Incidentally, because of how few APDs the Allies get, I recommend you convert every destroyer capable of converting to APDs. You usually have the choice of converting to an APD or DE. You'll eventually be swimming in DEs, but your fast transport capabilities--as the Allies--will always be limited. I agree with you for the most part with one minor exception. Every 5th DD I convert to a fast AVD. That way you can set up a forward seaplane base on a island , or even a dot base with no risk to a BF unit. If your PA aircraft see a threat coming (like the KB!) , the Planes can self-evacuate to safety , and your AVD can run away at 29 kts. [:D][:D]

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