Strategic Bombing (Full Version)

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Revthought -> Strategic Bombing (3/4/2017 4:38:32 PM)

Since I couldn't find this in the manual (I didn't look too hard), I thought I'd ask here. Can someone explain to me the effects of manpower attacks and fires? Does damage spill over into factories, refineries, shipyards,. etc? Can you actually damage manpower? Or does firebombing just eat the supply at the target?



Canoerebel -> RE: Strategic Bombing (3/4/2017 5:40:04 PM)

Your bombers can target any strategic objective within range, including "Manpower."

You click on "City Attack" under group mission, then select the city, then select the target in the city (if there is more than one option).

Yes, you can damage manpower.

I'm a little uncertain about firestorms. I think they result from targeting Manpower (automatically, whenever Manpower takes a hit). From reading in the past, I think the code is kind of broken so that no matter how many fires you start, firestorms never erupt. I've never heard of anybody actually achieving a firestorm.

But I'm a bit fuzzy on this, as you can tell. Somebody will come along and fill in the gaps or errors in the information I'm providing, but I'm offering this to help you with some feedback.



Revthought -> RE: Strategic Bombing (3/4/2017 5:45:25 PM)

Right, I am okay with the mechanics of every type of strategic bombing except manpower, and I'm wondering if it is worth my time to do it at all. Manpower seems really silly to target unless the fires I cause eat supply at the target AND, in some cases, damage spills over to other industry. The only reason I asked if manpower actually gets damaged is I've yet to see damage to a city's manpower number as I would other strategic bombing targets.



Canoerebel -> RE: Strategic Bombing (3/4/2017 6:34:59 PM)

I've seen lots of manpower hits when bases are bombarded at sea.

I don't think hitting manpower has any affect on supply (though, if bombarding, supply could take separate damage).

I believe manpower is worth points for strategic bombing, so it's worth it from that standpoint.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Strategic Bombing (3/4/2017 6:58:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought

Right, I am okay with the mechanics of every type of strategic bombing except manpower, and I'm wondering if it is worth my time to do it at all. Manpower seems really silly to target unless the fires I cause eat supply at the target AND, in some cases, damage spills over to other industry. The only reason I asked if manpower actually gets damaged is I've yet to see damage to a city's manpower number as I would other strategic bombing targets.


In short, CR is right. You don't bomb Manpower to destroy Manpower. You bomb Manpower because that's how the game abstracts using incendiaries, and THOSE leak over to randomly damage any and all other types of strat targets in the base. Japan players never lack for Manpower in their pools. It's not worth bombing for that. The Manpower number can also be very low--3 say--but any opens up the incendiaries abstraction that can damage or destroy aircraft factories, HI factories, engine factories, refineries, etc. If the base has no Manpower, you can still bomb HI, or refineries, or aircraft industry, but you do it with iron bombs, the pinpoint-hit algos kick in, and you don't get Fires.

On firestorms, there are a myriad of threads going back to launch on this. The manual is not precise. I've had over 800,000 fires in the late war in the HI and never gotten a notification that I recall. But it is possible, thorough severe fires, to permanently destroy factories so they can't be re-built with the 10,000/1000 per day mechanism that repairs normal damage. An additional reason to target Manpower.

Industry damage – Two VPs per point damaged, 20 VPs per point destroyed (an item destroyed
when damaged will yield 18 more VPs). Industry can only be destroyed by firestorms and
A-bombs, but can be damaged by any type of attack (including firestorms and A-bombs). VPs
scored by damaging industry is cumulative; if an industry hex is bombed, damaged, repaired,
then bombed again, the player keeps earning VPs as long as the industry hex keeps generating
value by repairing itself.
This is true for all industry types including manpower.
Points will only be scored by the Allies for bombing industry in mainland Japan, and by the
Japanese for bombing industry in North America, Australia, and/or Hawaii.



obvert -> RE: Strategic Bombing (3/4/2017 9:40:59 PM)

Strat bombing Manpower is the single most devastating tool in the Allied arsenal. It works best on two targets: Tokyo and Osaka.

Large manpower centres are lit on fire by strikes and burn for days, also randomly destroying every other kind of industry, factory and shipyard. Other HI targets with medium levels of manpower are still worthy targets, but Tokyo and Osaka have so much HI/LI, plus everything else, that this REALLy puts the hurt on the Japanese economy.

Often after a raid the fires would keep buying for a week! [:(]



Revthought -> RE: Strategic Bombing (3/4/2017 11:23:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've seen lots of manpower hits when bases are bombarded at sea.

I don't think hitting manpower has any affect on supply (though, if bombarding, supply could take separate damage).

I believe manpower is worth points for strategic bombing, so it's worth it from that standpoint.


I figured about manpower. I mean, in reality if manpower was to mean something more than it does in the pools, Japan probably should collect reduced manpower from non-home islands/tawain hexes, and the Allies should not be collecting manpower from certain places as well. I was just curious, because I too see the manpower hits, but damage is never reflected to manpower like it is for airfields, ports, and industry.

I am also not typically playing for VP in any of my games (not a super fan of the mechanic for determine victory). Incidentally, this is why I love WiTPAEs engine so much more than WiTW's engine! I bomb factories and they stop producing that thing! :D So I would probably never use manpower bombing just for that myself; however, it seems the consensus is that fires, even without triggering a firestorm, do damage industry in a hex?



Lowpe -> RE: Strategic Bombing (3/5/2017 1:00:37 AM)

Come on, lets face it. Strategic bombing is just not worth it. I don't know where Obvert thinks it could possibly generate VP or hurt Japan. I think in my last pbem the Allies only got a little over 60,000 vp from strategic bombing. Yep, definitely not worth it.

YMMV.



Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: Strategic Bombing (3/5/2017 1:10:17 AM)

Yes Revthought, strategic bombing is too much of a headache, you should avoid it [;)]



Revthought -> RE: Strategic Bombing (3/5/2017 6:09:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Yes Revthought, strategic bombing is too much of a headache, you should avoid it [;)]


Oh, it's not about avoiding strategic bombing. I do that regardless, it's just I notice myself firebombing a lot and I wanted some reassurance by doing that instead of iron bombing each individual factory/resource I was accomplishing something... other than getting VP that is. [;)]



zuluhour -> RE: Strategic Bombing (3/6/2017 7:20:02 PM)

I have just begun a strategic bombing campaign against Japan. Only two raids against Nagasaki and Hiroshima thus far, but I have used the gadget in both attacks combined with night raids of B29s flying 600'. The damage, as far as aerial recon reveals, is substantial to HI, LI, resources, and VP. In these two raids I have amassed 11,000 odd VP alone. Lars volunteered Nagasaki's city screen which showed 6 supply left and HI and LI at just below 50% or so.



Revthought -> RE: Strategic Bombing (3/6/2017 8:02:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

I have just begun a strategic bombing campaign against Japan. Only two raids against Nagasaki and Hiroshima thus far, but I have used the gadget in both attacks combined with night raids of B29s flying 600'. The damage, as far as aerial recon reveals, is substantial to HI, LI, resources, and VP. In these two raids I have amassed 11,000 odd VP alone. Lars volunteered Nagasaki's city screen which showed 6 supply left and HI and LI at just below 50% or so.



So the firebombing eats supply in the hex as well?



Lecivius -> RE: Strategic Bombing (3/6/2017 8:34:36 PM)

Question. I know firebombing will damage other industries. Do you get VP's for that damage as well, or is it just a pleasant side effect?



zuluhour -> RE: Strategic Bombing (3/7/2017 12:09:34 AM)

the results shared, the VP for the strike was about 6000


[image]local://upfiles/37319/7BC0E403444C4474AA3899394B185446.jpg[/image]



GetAssista -> RE: Strategic Bombing (3/7/2017 2:22:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour
the results shared, the VP for the strike was about 6000

Was it one strike?! O_o



Chickenboy -> RE: Strategic Bombing (3/7/2017 2:43:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Yes Revthought, strategic bombing is too much of a headache, you should avoid it [;)]


Hai! I mean "yes"! Allied dogs should not strategic bomb Japans mens!

ETA: BANZAI!!!



RogerBacon -> RE: Strategic Bombing (5/23/2017 6:47:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Strat bombing Manpower is the single most devastating tool in the Allied arsenal.


And for Japan too. I haven't played in a few years but I remember bombing Australian cities and farming tons of victory points. That always put me over the threshold for the auto-win condition on 1/1/1943.



Lokasenna -> RE: Strategic Bombing (5/23/2017 7:09:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Your bombers can target any strategic objective within range, including "Manpower."

You click on "City Attack" under group mission, then select the city, then select the target in the city (if there is more than one option).

Yes, you can damage manpower.

I'm a little uncertain about firestorms. I think they result from targeting Manpower (automatically, whenever Manpower takes a hit). From reading in the past, I think the code is kind of broken so that no matter how many fires you start, firestorms never erupt. I've never heard of anybody actually achieving a firestorm.

But I'm a bit fuzzy on this, as you can tell. Somebody will come along and fill in the gaps or errors in the information I'm providing, but I'm offering this to help you with some feedback.


I've never seen regular bombing of Manpower cause a "firestorm" that destroys points of industry, only damages them. I've done a lot of strat bombing, although perhaps some others have more experience with it than I do.

In my recent use of an A-Bomb, however, Manpower and some points in a few factories were just straight up destroyed. There were no regular fires resulting from this.



Lokasenna -> RE: Strategic Bombing (5/23/2017 7:10:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought


quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

I have just begun a strategic bombing campaign against Japan. Only two raids against Nagasaki and Hiroshima thus far, but I have used the gadget in both attacks combined with night raids of B29s flying 600'. The damage, as far as aerial recon reveals, is substantial to HI, LI, resources, and VP. In these two raids I have amassed 11,000 odd VP alone. Lars volunteered Nagasaki's city screen which showed 6 supply left and HI and LI at just below 50% or so.



So the firebombing eats supply in the hex as well?


Not that I know of.

The supplies being so low could well be the result of AA fire.



Lecivius -> RE: Strategic Bombing (5/23/2017 8:04:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I've never seen regular bombing of Manpower cause a "firestorm" that destroys points of industry, only damages them. I've done a lot of strat bombing, although perhaps some others have more experience with it than I do.



I would have to really search (and at work, time constrains me) but I am almost certain 'firestorms' can't be caused in game. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in, but there have been several discussions about this over the years. Fires, yes. Not firestorms.



zuluhour -> RE: Strategic Bombing (5/23/2017 8:45:10 PM)

By the time I was done the game, turn 1575, a quarter of the VP were from a bomb attacks and B29 (manpower) raids. It softened the reality my arse was handed to me. [;)]

[image]local://upfiles/37319/979A9F18686B4285BD115E5DA4ACB78E.jpg[/image]



Lowpe -> RE: Strategic Bombing (5/23/2017 8:47:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Strat bombing Manpower is the single most devastating tool in the Allied arsenal. It works best on two targets: Tokyo and Osaka.

Large manpower centres are lit on fire by strikes and burn for days, also randomly destroying every other kind of industry, factory and shipyard. Other HI targets with medium levels of manpower are still worthy targets, but Tokyo and Osaka have so much HI/LI, plus everything else, that this REALLy puts the hurt on the Japanese economy.

Often after a raid the fires would keep buying for a week! [:(]


Say it isn't so![:D]



Lokasenna -> RE: Strategic Bombing (5/23/2017 9:20:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I've never seen regular bombing of Manpower cause a "firestorm" that destroys points of industry, only damages them. I've done a lot of strat bombing, although perhaps some others have more experience with it than I do.



I would have to really search (and at work, time constrains me) but I am almost certain 'firestorms' can't be caused in game. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in, but there have been several discussions about this over the years. Fires, yes. Not firestorms.


I dropped an a-bomb 2 days ago that definitely destroyed industry. Tokyo is down to 80ish points of Manpower - almost all of that damaged - and it started with 150ish. This has led me to believe that "firestorm" is basically code for "a-bomb effects."



BBfanboy -> RE: Strategic Bombing (5/24/2017 3:50:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I've never seen regular bombing of Manpower cause a "firestorm" that destroys points of industry, only damages them. I've done a lot of strat bombing, although perhaps some others have more experience with it than I do.



I would have to really search (and at work, time constrains me) but I am almost certain 'firestorms' can't be caused in game. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in, but there have been several discussions about this over the years. Fires, yes. Not firestorms.

Check witpqs's AAR a couple of years back. He regularly created firestorms over 500,000 and in at least one attack, over 1,000,000! But it is not the initial fires that seem to destroy industry, but the ones that linger for days afterward. So it seems the model is: initial fire levels = light buildings burning, persistent fire levels = heavy industrial buildings burning. They are much more likely to be damaged but I know at least some industry is destroyed.



Lokasenna -> RE: Strategic Bombing (5/24/2017 4:26:59 AM)

But that's not a firestorm. It's just a really high level of fires.



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