RE: July 1944 (Full Version)

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HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: July 1944 (4/14/2018 12:54:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BrianG

Very impressive counterattack.

Those are huge Russian tank losses.





German PZs are “Supermen” ;-p

****couldnt help myself but it is true



SparkleyTits -> RE: July 1944 (4/14/2018 1:27:11 AM)

It seemed to be when Axis mechs and panzers were in the same battle against Soviet armour they would rip it apart or I am jumping at shadows?



chaos45 -> RE: July 1944 (4/14/2018 6:44:02 PM)

Most those big soviet tank losses were from lots of zoc's on retreat paths. The Soviets dont get the super reduced zoc losses like the Germans do.

So those soviet units prolly had a fair amount of damaged tanks from the attack battles, then had more damaged/destroyed in the german counterattacks and then in turn almost all their damaged tanks got converted to total losses due to the path of zoc'd retreats is my guess.

The problem is alot of German tank losses were coming from retreats and zoc'd retreats in the past as the after battle losses were higher than battle losses...then a certain german player complained loudly and alot about it and several things were put into the game to limit and vastly reduce German retreat losses.....and thus u now have almost untouchable German panzer divisions.



STEF78 -> End war strategy (4/14/2018 7:26:49 PM)

Some statements on the forum suggest that the game is biased due to the "german panzer surpermen"

In fact, past 1943, Pzd are mighty (CV between 20 and 35) but certainly not invincible.

I've played more than 10 GC past mid 1943 and 5 past spring 1944. And I play both side. I will share some thoughts about late war from my experience.

Mightiest units on each side
Russia: Guard Rifle Corps, ther Cv can reach easily 30
German: Pzd (cf above)

Main other assets on each side
Russia:
- ability to create units
- NM increasing
- IL2 and IL2M
- artillery
German
- best leaders
- ability to trade ground against time and choose the place where to fight

Main weakness
Russia: None, Red army 2.0 is a monster, but it cannot choose where to fight
German:
- Manpower shortage
- NM declining
- arrival of lower quality replacements

Best way to win from mid 1943 to the end
WITE is about encirclement and destruction. No way to win without that.
Russia:
1) Smash first the Luftwaffe, lots of german fighter squadrons withdraw from mid 1943 to mid 1944. Build fighter units, smash the german fighters. Losing 1 for 4 isn't an issue.
2) Do a tactical bombing of each front hex and above all of each german Pzd twice a turn. You will loose lot of Il2M. it doesn't matter. Pzd will get losses and fatigue. it's fine
3) Fill you rifle corps with 3 sapper régiments or 2 sapper régiments and 1 tank regiment. And rotate your units. With a good artillery support, no german stack can resist
4) Do recon to detect any weakness on the the german frontline (Stelteck had twice the opportunity this summer but didn't detect it)
5) Use your Mech/tank units in order to exploit the breakthrough and rampage german rear areas, not to create the breakthrough.
6) Seal your encirclement firmly, the german will do his best to save his units trapped.
6) Think as the german (I have a precise idea that I don't want to give as long as the game isn't finished)

German:
1) Use the ground (river, marsh, rough, city)
2) Shorten your lines
3) Keep some mobile units in reserve, you will need them.
4) Trade ground against time
5) Earn victories to keep morale high. As said pelton, "morale is king". It's true
6) Prevent major encirclement. Once you suffer one, game is over.

Of course, maybe I'm wrong on some ideas, but it's what I learnt from my WITE gaming experience.




elloboloco -> RE: End war strategy (4/14/2018 7:37:38 PM)

Steph, Real good insights above. Do you think the same holds true when using the alternate combat values option? The German panzer divisions seem almost invincible when using that option.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: July 1944 (4/14/2018 8:06:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Most those big soviet tank losses were from lots of zoc's on retreat paths. The Soviets dont get the super reduced zoc losses like the Germans do.

So those soviet units prolly had a fair amount of damaged tanks from the attack battles, then had more damaged/destroyed in the german counterattacks and then in turn almost all their damaged tanks got converted to total losses due to the path of zoc'd retreats is my guess.

The problem is alot of German tank losses were coming from retreats and zoc'd retreats in the past as the after battle losses were higher than battle losses...then a certain german player complained loudly and alot about it and several things were put into the game to limit and vastly reduce German retreat losses.....and thus u now have almost untouchable German panzer divisions.


The retreats are based on the experience of the units & is not solely (although Germans have higher experience in almost all units) a German attribute. The less experience the more loses, pretty simple. Take the same scenario that happened to the Russians here in this game and apply that to the Germans. You will see that the German PZ Divs in 41 if forced to retreat you will 100% see the germans losing less than 30 tanks retreating through those same ZOC's. I have done & been on the both sides of this fence. So, there is no "IFS", "ANDS", or "BUTTS" about it. The German PZ Divs are SUPERMEN.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: End war strategy (4/14/2018 8:20:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78

Some statements on the forum suggest that the game is biased due to the "german panzer surpermen"

In fact, past 1943, Pzd are mighty (CV between 20 and 35) but certainly not invincible.

I've played more than 10 GC past mid 1943 and 5 past spring 1944. And I play both side. I will share some thoughts about late war from my experience.

Mightiest units on each side
Russia: Guard Rifle Corps, ther Cv can reach easily 30
German: Pzd (cf above)

Main other assets on each side
Russia:
- ability to create units
- NM increasing
- IL2 and IL2M
- artillery
German
- best leaders
- ability to trade ground against time and choose the place where to fight

Main weakness
Russia: None, Red army 2.0 is a monster, but it cannot choose where to fight
German:
- Manpower shortage
- NM declining
- arrival of lower quality replacements

Best way to win from mid 1943 to the end
WITE is about encirclement and destruction. No way to win without that.
Russia:
1) Smash first the Luftwaffe, lots of german fighter squadrons withdraw from mid 1943 to mid 1944. Build fighter units, smash the german fighters. Losing 1 for 4 isn't an issue.
2) Do a tactical bombing of each front hex and above all of each german Pzd twice a turn. You will loose lot of Il2M. it doesn't matter. Pzd will get losses and fatigue. it's fine
3) Fill you rifle corps with 3 sapper régiments or 2 sapper régiments and 1 tank regiment. And rotate your units. With a good artillery support, no german stack can resist
4) Do recon to detect any weakness on the the german frontline (Stelteck had twice the opportunity this summer but didn't detect it)
5) Use your Mech/tank units in order to exploit the breakthrough and rampage german rear areas, not to create the breakthrough.
6) Seal your encirclement firmly, the german will do his best to save his units trapped.
6) Think as the german (I have a precise idea that I don't want to give as long as the game isn't finished)

German:
1) Use the ground (river, marsh, rough, city)
2) Shorten your lines
3) Keep some mobile units in reserve, you will need them.
4) Trade ground against time
5) Earn victories to keep morale high. As said pelton, "morale is king". It's true
6) Prevent major encirclement. Once you suffer one, game is over.

Of course, maybe I'm wrong on some ideas, but it's what I learnt from my WITE gaming experience.




German Panzer Divisions are Supermen. Sorry, but trying to damage these units is like shooting spitballs on a rock. I am a PRO German player favoring the Germans 100% of the time and I have no problem saying this at all. Back in the day the German tanks took loses that was appropriate to the action. Nowadays I just shake my head as people come up with all the different ways of trying to put loses on the PZ divs.

As for the best leaders, you will see the Soviet can stack the board with leaders in 41 early 42 and be pretty darn well lead and after a few promotions, they are not that far behind the Germans. So I don't see this one as a handicap at all. Matter of fact the Soviets are pretty much on par with the Germans with leaders since they can stack the front using their AP's where the Germans have to use their APs to do a host of things.

Morale is not King!!!!!!! This is a fable that has been spewn until other people parrot this phrase as Gospel. You can live by it if you choose. But for me Unit "Experience" is king and will continue to play that way.

The other items you posted are all good rules of thumb to live by when playing the game and all players should be able to learn and use these. But still does not delimit the superman nature of German PZ divs.



chaos45 -> RE: July 1944 (4/14/2018 8:26:32 PM)

HL- I'm pretty sure thats what I said...as the game was tweaked to lower German retreat losses several patches ago....prolly a year ago or so...and since then its become impossible to cause attrition to German tank formations.

At the same time they reduced German retreat losses they also added a code to reduce German tank losses in total from combat if I remember right....you have to remember this game has been patched a ton and when you keep stacking benefits and tweaks to one side that side or even units eventually become overpowering.

You can thank alot of these Super German patches to Pelton- not sure what name he is hiding under now but I'm sure hes still here just using a new name.

Stef- pretty much spot on, on tactics.






HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: End war strategy (4/14/2018 8:28:11 PM)

Anyway, I'm done with talking about the German Panzer Division as "supermen". The forum will figure it out soon enough & I think many already see this. I don't want to take up any more of Stef's Fine AAR with my or other peoples comment on this subject.

Thank you much!



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: July 1944 (4/14/2018 8:31:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

HL- I'm pretty sure thats what I said...as the game was tweaked to lower German retreat losses several patches ago....prolly a year ago or so...and since then its become impossible to cause attrition to German tank formations.

At the same time they reduced German retreat losses they also added a code to reduce German tank losses in total from combat if I remember right....you have to remember this game has been patched a ton and when you keep stacking benefits and tweaks to one side that side or even units eventually become overpowering.

You can thank alot of these Super German patches to Pelton- not sure what name he is hiding under now but I'm sure hes still here just using a new name.

Stef- pretty much spot on, on tactics.



I might have misread it or interpreted it incorrectly since I'm trying to get work done at the same time. I'm sorry, but I do know I tend to agree with almost all the items you post Chaos45 :-)



STEF78 -> RE: End war strategy (4/14/2018 8:57:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
.../...
Morale is not King!!!!!!! .../... But for me Unit "Experience" is king and will continue to play that way. .../...


I often agree with HLYA. But not this time.

The rules describe the impact of experience, morale, fatigue ad so on. ..

Chapter 9.0 "Morale is also important in that it limits the ability of a unit's ground elements to train to a higher experience level,
as they can only train up to the morale level of their parent unit."

I'm not native english but I understand that morale is a cap to the growth of experience. Thus morale is king [;)], even if experience is also a major factor.

On the other side I must admit that Pzd losses seem far too low. I shouldn't have such a pool of Tigers after so much fights.

But I repeat that WITE success relies on encirclement, nothing else.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: End war strategy (4/14/2018 9:05:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
.../...
Morale is not King!!!!!!! .../... But for me Unit "Experience" is king and will continue to play that way. .../...


I often agree with HLYA. But not this time.



It is all good Stef & I still "love" ya, heck I may be wrong too on this, but that is how I plan my battles in the game :). Along with Fatigue are my top two attributes. But yes Love your AAR!! Another top-notch play by play to the bitter end :)

By the way, Looks like I may be coming to France spring of next year. Will have to meet up with you. (This year doing Japan, Italy, and Egypt. Next year France, Britain, Scotland, and Ireland but subject to "Wife" changing her mind for next year)



tyronec -> RE: End war strategy (4/14/2018 9:59:34 PM)

quote:

The retreats are based on the experience of the units & is not solely (although Germans have higher experience in almost all units) a German attribute. The less experience the more loses, pretty simple. Take the same scenario that happened to the Russians here in this game and apply that to the Germans. You will see that the German PZ Divs in 41 if forced to retreat you will 100% see the germans losing less than 30 tanks retreating through those same ZOC's. I have done & been on the both sides of this fence. So, there is no "IFS", "ANDS", or "BUTTS" about it. The German PZ Divs are SUPERMEN.

You just need to set it up right, so not quite Supermen... But yes, they are overpowered.

[image]local://upfiles/52296/3263EDB91EE647D58D11C9B007B2A928.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: End war strategy (4/14/2018 11:07:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

The retreats are based on the experience of the units & is not solely (although Germans have higher experience in almost all units) a German attribute. The less experience the more loses, pretty simple. Take the same scenario that happened to the Russians here in this game and apply that to the Germans. You will see that the German PZ Divs in 41 if forced to retreat you will 100% see the germans losing less than 30 tanks retreating through those same ZOC's. I have done & been on the both sides of this fence. So, there is no "IFS", "ANDS", or "BUTTS" about it. The German PZ Divs are SUPERMEN.

You just need to set it up right, so not quite Supermen... But yes, they are overpowered.

[image]local://upfiles/52296/3263EDB91EE647D58D11C9B007B2A928.jpg[/image]


Well, I said I would not but I am.

Blizzard at your back giving you traction to get those kill numbers on the German PZs. It would be impressive if done in a non-blizzard turn. So yes, still supermen!

I would not be surprised if a great many of those loses are from the solvakian Mobile Division.



STEF78 -> RE: End war strategy (4/15/2018 7:04:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
.../...
By the way, Looks like I may be coming to France spring of next year. Will have to meet up with you. .../...

Nice idea!
Let me know when you arrive[:)]

And i've asked Bobo if he accept to play some more turns or our game stopped last year in march 1944 in order to get some datas about late war tank fights.





STEF78 -> August 1944 (4/15/2018 7:31:20 PM)

Turn 164, 3rd august 1944

Money time, second week.

Despite the losses, Stelteck is able to maintain the momentum on the landbridge. Dvina is crossed in the north and the Dniepr will no longer act as a protection.

Russian army looks like an hydra! Have a look at the 58/49 CV stacks on the 2nd line...

[img]https://i.imgur.com/cZRQlPf.jpg[/img]

Heavy counterattacks targeting retreat through multiple Zoc's when possible. Note that routing a unit generate less losses than an "optimized" retreat.

No unit is lost, russian AFV losses are significant.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/KhLBUpr.jpg[/img]

Pressure north of Riga. I've only 1 Pzd north of Riga, it's not enough but landbridge situation let me no other choice.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/veGsrRn.jpg[/img]

Some grinding north of Kiev. No AFV lost from the russian...

[img]https://i.imgur.com/gJzmZ8w.jpg[/img]

Lower Dniepr is crossed, but russian units have to flee back

[img]https://i.imgur.com/UzLfRPx.jpg[/img]

The losses. More than 3600 AFV lost within 2 weeks. Manpower losses are unsustainable for the axis.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/bVDrZ3i.jpg[/img]

And the OOB, russian AFV below 25k

[img]https://i.imgur.com/CY1eTYd.jpg[/img]



STEF78 -> August 1944 (4/17/2018 7:31:51 PM)

Turn 165, 10th august 1944

Less action this week, russian tank units need to refit

Some pressure north of the Dvina

[img]https://i.imgur.com/pEGzUKi.jpg[/img]

And in front of Minsk

[img]https://i.imgur.com/oimuhes.jpg[/img]

But the intensity of fights have clearly decreased.

An overwiew of the russian advance since may 1944. several attempts to cross the Dniepr South of Kiev, without success.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/g0qmi5S.jpg[/img]



STEF78 -> August 1944 (4/21/2018 9:01:11 AM)

Turn 166, 17th august 1944

Bad news from the western front...

In the east, we are facing new opponents attempting to invade Finland...

[img]https://i.imgur.com/7Y4bDqX.jpg[/img]

Northern bank of the Dvina is evacuated... manu militari

[img]https://i.imgur.com/wiWVhkO.jpg[/img]

Always an heavy pressure in the center but less tank corps on duty

[img]https://i.imgur.com/CBk4QK5.jpg[/img]

Some ground given in the marshes north of Kiev

[img]https://i.imgur.com/IPASyTW.jpg[/img]

The losses

[img]https://i.imgur.com/dICDAwP.jpg[/img]

And the VP's. We are fighting for fun, I think that Stelteck will end between 35/50K VP's, depending on the encirclements achieved.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/BZiUV4I.jpg[/img]



STEF78 -> August 1944 (4/25/2018 8:54:28 PM)

Turn 167, 24th august 1944

Paris is about to fall...

In the east, russian offensive is stalling.

South of the Pripyat marshes, Dniepr offers a good protection at the moment. Dvina does the same on the northern part of the front. and east of Minsk, russian units need some rest.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/qyd1gxx.jpg[/img]



STEF78 -> August 1944 (4/28/2018 10:34:47 AM)

Turn 168, 31th august 1944

It seems that the fierce battles of end july/early august have had a more important influence than expected. Russian tank corps are still recovering from their losses and pressure is far weaker than in july

Surprisingly, Stelteck is always reluctant to use intensive tactical bombing. On the long terme it's a killing for german manpower. Losing an extra 5k men per week changes the face of the battle.

In the center some battles, but considering that it's august 1944, it looks like holidays.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/LDjfvJt.jpg[/img]

Another attempt to cross the lower Dniepr

[img]https://i.imgur.com/PYdSUir.jpg[/img]






Mamluke -> RE: August 1944 (4/30/2018 1:31:06 PM)

WOW you are doing it stef! you are actually managing to pull of a stalemate in summer 1944!!
even if the winter takes away all the advantage of the large rivers, the low winter mobility will make the battle for the Ukraine far more manageable!
and it seams not even the Soviets could sustain such enormous tank loses in such a sort period of time... interesting even with out encirclement.

it will be interesting non the less to see what a desperate and powerful red army can do in 1945.



and BIG props for Stelteck for staying with this! it must be disheartening to get such meager results, but much respect for keeping up with a bad situation.



STEF78 -> RE: August 1944 (4/30/2018 5:41:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mamluke

WOW you are doing it stef! you are actually managing to pull of a stalemate in summer 1944!!


It's the first time that I get good results in summer 1944. My previous campaigns proved to be disasters during this period

quote:


even if the winter takes away all the advantage of the large rivers, the low winter mobility will make the battle for the Ukraine far more manageable!
and it seams not even the Soviets could sustain such enormous tank loses in such a sort period of time... interesting even with out encirclement.

it will be interesting non the less to see what a desperate and powerful red army can do in 1945.


we shall see what can be done... NM is still falling...

quote:


and BIG props for Stelteck for staying with this! it must be disheartening to get such meager results, but much respect for keeping up with a bad situation.

Agreed, Stelteck is a good player (and a very nice and reliable person!) but I think he lacks of experience of late war campaign.

And he built an army based on tank/mech corps and has now to deal with it...



STEF78 -> September1944 (5/1/2018 6:51:14 AM)

Turn 169, 7th september 1944

I cannot be strong everywhere... and Stelteck has a very mobile army. He created a dangerous situation north of Minsk

[img]https://i.imgur.com/O293ubi.jpg[/img]

Some counterattacks and also some ground given to prevent encirclement.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/07KGW4J.jpg[/img]

In the South some other attempts to cross the Dniepr. I need to hold the river till mud. Otherwise, I will have to give at least 30 miles per week.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/m8WgZE7.jpg[/img]



beender -> RE: September1944 (5/1/2018 9:23:03 AM)

If soviet mobile formations in 1944 is anything close to that of Germans in 1941, then yes i agree the bulge near minsk is a risk worth immediate attention.

By the way its quite impressive to see a panzer division repelling an attack by more than 10 times of men. Suppose that does not happen a lot even in wite.



STEF78 -> RE: September1944 (5/1/2018 10:20:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: beender

If soviet mobile formations in 1944 is anything close to that of Germans in 1941, then yes i agree the bulge near minsk is a risk worth immediate attention.


From my opinion and experience 3 tank corps in late summer 1944 are equivalent to 2 good Pzd

quote:


By the way its quite impressive to see a panzer division repelling an attack by more than 10 times of men. Suppose that does not happen a lot even in wite.

Look closely at these 2 defensive fights
1) No tac bombing prior attacking
2) Good defensive terrain
3) Defender under same command
4) Attacker under different command
5) Reserve activation
6) When I loose, no valuable support, a weak unit called as reserve and an average german commander
7) When I win, strong support (always 3 to each Pzd) and the best german commander. Only one guard rifle corps.

Good result, but not only good random dices.

I will detail later the way I use to maximize russian losses while counterattacking (I was on holidays and had time to take picture of each step [;)])



SparkleyTits -> RE: September1944 (5/1/2018 10:26:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78

I will detail later the way I use to maximize russian losses while counterattacking (I was on holidays and had time to take picture of each step [;)])


Nice I'll be looking forward to that Stef
Some nice tips on how to counter attack successfully as Axis later in the war will be a great read



beender -> RE: September1944 (5/1/2018 10:42:52 AM)

yes, it's not just dice rolls. The original CV was 867(a single panzer div) vs 1083(230k infantry), and that is where i am impressed. Apparently you have managed to keep at least some of the German elite units in quite good shape.



STEF78 -> September1944 (5/2/2018 7:18:07 PM)

Turn 170, 15th september 1944

Heavy pressure from Dvina to Berezina. Nothing useful can be done against russian rifle corps on the long term

[img]https://i.imgur.com/dWCTvWh.jpg[/img]

I decide to give some ground to soften attacks.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/t6PEEIw.jpg[/img]

Near Cherkassy 2 bridgeheads are created, only one can be destroyed. No way to expell russian units from rough terrain. Note that this tank régiments are now stronger than a Stug brigade.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/oPCK0jB.jpg[/img]

2 bridgeheads are also created acroos the lower Dniepr, only one can be destroyed (bis). Russian units in marshes can't be sent back... mud will be welcome!

[img]https://i.imgur.com/GsqlWV1.jpg[/img]



BrianG -> RE: September1944 (5/3/2018 12:28:19 PM)

2 turns ago

did I see the Russians lost 26 planes when the Germans sent none up to meet them?

Was it a flax fest or just ?.

btw defense of river has been stellar.




STEF78 -> RE: September1944 (5/4/2018 5:14:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BrianG

2 turns ago

did I see the Russians lost 26 planes when the Germans sent none up to meet them?

Was it a flax fest or just ?.

Air fights results are sometimes weird.
I have concentrated lots of fighter squadrons near Minsk and it's hard to determine why interception works or not.
And concerning Flak efficiency, I must admit my ignorance. Anti air weapons are more powerfull on the late war but I also find some results difficult to explain


quote:


btw defense of river has been stellar.

Thanks.... next natural stop after Dniepr/Dvina is the Vistula/Carpathian mountains line



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