Scenario 4: Salvo (Full Version)

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schmolywar -> Scenario 4: Salvo (5/20/2017 12:17:35 PM)

How in the world do you manage to penetrate the missile defenses of Okinawa and Korea? Even with the special options going I cant get through. Explain to me your saturation strategy.



schmolywar -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo (5/20/2017 12:45:34 PM)

Using the low altitude slow moving cruise missiles in concert with the ballistic rockets is of no use either. The cruise missiles are dealt with by the US planes and wont saturate the patriots or THAADs.



blkholsun -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo (5/20/2017 3:28:03 PM)

I'm glad I'm not the only one. I'd be fascinated to learn the "trick" that makes this scenario possible... I've tried it three times in different manners and get absolutely nowhere. This last time I tried coordinating an all-in strike where every cruise missile, every rocket, and every jet that I have all coordinate more-or-less simultaneously, and there were still <10 hits, probably more like <5 but I quit in frustration without checking.



schmolywar -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo (5/21/2017 11:02:33 AM)

blkholsun, do you have any idea if taking out the 3 radars near Okinawa helps? Id assume the patriots will even shoot down the Krypton ARMs.



gosnold -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo (5/21/2017 2:39:40 PM)

Same, I'm getting nowhere with the PLA rocket force. I think it's partly because the SM-3 is overpowered: the Reagan CVBG intercepts my missiles before they reach Okinawa, 800nm away from the carrier. Plus they do 180° in mid-air when retargeting.
I managed to sink the Reagan though, I think it had expended all its SM-3s.



juanchopancho -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo (5/22/2017 7:25:23 AM)

It's a tough nut to crack I was able to damage 6 runways and sink the CV. No luck with Guam though. Going to need to play this one a lot more.

Good stuff though! [:D]



mikmykWS -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo (5/22/2017 1:49:38 PM)

Hi Guys

Are you using your strike assets to soften up defenses? Lots of ARM armed and strike missiles to be used against systems that can challenge your ballistic missiles.

Mike



jmax -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo (5/24/2017 1:16:11 AM)

It's a real challenge juggling all your air assets to achieve saturation, but you have lots to work with. First thing I did was sortie nearly all my H-6s and loiter at low altitude staging areas behind mountains while I set up my AEW, Tankers, jammers and escorts, in preparation for a quick one-two punch with standoff strike packages and my Dong Fengs.

Definitely my favourite scenario so far. It's more or less what I was trying to do with my "Breaking the Chain" scenario, but from the PLA side and focused on Japan and Korea rather than Taiwan and the Philippine Sea. I'd be interested to hear other player strategies — may be helpful for designing AI missions for the Chinese side.



blkholsun -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo (5/24/2017 3:48:42 AM)

I guess this scenario was just a real wake-up call for me that I'm not as good at this game as I thought I was. It is by far the most challenging CMANO scenario I've ever played. I just cannot achieve anything whatsoever... I try to "soften up" the defenses as suggested but whatever I try just gets swatted down as easily as everything else. I don't think I've ever managed to hit anything with an ARM. I've tried it eight times now and I still don't think I've ever destroyed a single target on Guam (in my most "successful" run to date I did manage to knock out three radars in Korea, but that's it) so I'm giving up on it for now. I hope someday somebody puts up a video of a successful run at this so that I can conceptualize how in the world it's done.



Tailhook -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo (5/25/2017 5:05:35 PM)

I think the penalty for losing a plane is too high. Losses are inevitable to the AIM-120D wielding Americans, you pretty much need to use a massed attack to punch a hole through, but it's often not worth it, points wise.

Also getting an issue where it seems like points aren't being rewarded for strikes on tarmac, open parking, and smaller hangars. I successfully landed 100+ cruise missiles on Guam thanks to the H-6 bombers, but got few points for it.



blkholsun -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo (5/25/2017 6:45:43 PM)

Yeah I don't understand how to get in and out without suffering huge losses, even with local numerical superiority.
jmax, could you provide just a touch more insight into how you accomplished this scenario? What was the make-up of your strike packages that were successful, and what did you target?



jmax -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo (5/26/2017 1:17:52 AM)

@blkholsun: I haven't actually beaten the scenario yet! It took me a couple hours just to organize — played a bit more today, and the results so far have been less than stellar. Even with jamming, multi-axis saturation, and judicious use of network-disrupting cyber attacks, most of my missiles missed the mark.

Now, if you're losing too many aircraft, I might be able to help with that. Local numerical superiority is key, but it still helps to be sneaky — I set all aircraft emissions to passive except for AEW, and prepared ambushes against the expected surge once the balloon went up. Some flights approached the enemy head on at 30000 or 12000 feet, periodically flashing their radars to draw attention, while others cruised at very low altitude waiting to pop up from the flanks. I typically fired all my BVR missiles as soon as possible, about 3 to each target, then RTB on low-altitude. A fair bit of micromanagement and I still lost a few, but opposing fighters were massacred and my escorts mopped up the rest.

My most successful strike packages comprised groups of 3x flights of H-6s accompanied by as many 4x flights of the nearest ARM-equipped attack aircraft I could muster once the bombers were assembled, flying low until it was time for the H-6s to toss out their ALCMs. I didn't manage my tanker assets very well and ran out of fuel on a couple attack runs — not wanting their payloads to go to waste, I ordered some shorter-range attack aircraft (mostly the older J-7s) to ditch in the drink around Okinawa and wait for some friendly American or Japanese CSAR =P As for targets, I like to hit vulnerable avgas, ammo stockpiles and surrounding tarmac and access points, but given the scenario's short timeframe and scoring, I kept it simple and tried to crater the runways with between 40-60 CJ-10s apiece, aimed for hangars and shelters with my ballistic missiles, and hunted down PAC batteries and other mobile emitters with my ARMs (with little success =/).



gosnold -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo (5/27/2017 5:59:37 PM)

I just realized that the US side has only 48 SM-3 block II (12 on the Benfold and 32 on the CVBG). It will shoot those at any ballistic missile in range, so you can force it to expend them by launching a few DF-15 or 16 one by one (it will launch two SM-3s per missile, and waste at least one because there is no other target).
After the block IIs are expended, the remaining ABM systems are THAAD and SM-3 block Is, which have a much shorter range. So you can then pick apart the US AEW network, and get target patriot batteries with DF-21s that are much harder to intercept.



DismalPseudoscience -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo (5/27/2017 10:58:13 PM)

Yessssss! Finally got this, on my 4th try. Will post a full AAR later today, but here are the key points:

1) Do NOT risk your aircraft. Don't send them anywhere near the enemy.
2) The scoring is very tight. The Reagan is worth 1000 pts, and each runway and satellite is 100. There are only 11 runways counting Guam, and hangars are an utterly worthless investment at either 10 pts or zero pts each, depending on type. Always target 100% of your weapons on runways - you can't afford to fail to hit one.
3) Do not strike Guam. It is too far, worth only 200pts for the two runways, and too well defended. I found that the THAAD disruption didn't work fully against Guam, and all my DF-26s were intercepted anyway. It costs 200pts, too, so you can at best break even. Far better to use your DF-26s against Okinawa, where they can help make a difference.
4) Okinawa is key since it has 4 runways. Try to get it with all ballistic missiles available nearby, including the DF-26s. You can hopefully get through and neutralize all 4 runways with saturation.
5) Attack Okinawa and Korea first, but while doing the above for Okinawa, use only short range missiles on Korea. The purpose of the Korea attack is to draw out the SM-3IIs, as gosnold described above.
6) Use DF-21Cs after (5) to hit the 3 Japanese mainland bases. You have 4 regiments, so 1 is spare for either a Korea strike or Okinawa mop up.
7) Make sure to drive your western DF-21D battery east for an hour or two so it can be in range of the Reagan.
8) After all the above steps, hit the Reagan.
9) Satellites are a big deal points wise - watch for them and be ready to intercept.

Guam is unfeasible - if you hit all other runways and the Reagan you only get 1900 points of the 2000 you need, 1700 if you feel the justifiable need to disrupt the Korean THAAD. Satellites will make up for whichever runways you miss. I missed the Korean bases and picked up 5 satellites and 5 worthless structures for a mere 2050 - but that was enough.

You'll notice I didn't mention the 300 cruise missiles you have. I tried to overwhelm Korea with them and failed. Perhaps I could have succeeded if I took my own advice about 100% runway focus.

Edit: My AAR.



mikmykWS -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo (5/27/2017 11:11:32 PM)

nice job[8D]



ridgeback68 -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo *CONTAINS SPOILERS* (5/28/2017 11:26:48 AM)

Hey all,

I used a very similar strategy to DismalPseudoscience and got through first go and no losses at all.

Some **MAJOR SPOILERS** ahead, so please don't read if you want to do this yourself:



- Set up three AEW support missions - North, Centre & South - you don't have to worry about relief as the scenario is only 6 hours.

- Set up some CAPs immediately in front of each of the AEW patrols as a bit of protection. I used the PL-15 armed aircraft first as the PL-15 seems to out-range anything the West has. These CAPs came in handy to knock down some fighters that ended up chasing my AEW. They also came in handy to intercept the retaliatory US cruise missile strike.

- Used the land based cruise missiles, the Flounders (ARM and cruise missile) and the ARM Flankers to launch some pre-emptive strikes on Korea and Okinawa. Didn't achieve anything but I used them in a war of attrition to soak up valuable defensive missiles (Patriots etc)

- Launched all my Badgers at scenario start and sent them towards Guam between Taiwan and The Philippines. When in range they launched all their cruise missiles at Guam. Guam only has a THAAD battery which is useless against the cruise missiles. I only targeted the runways, but you can go beserk and target just about everything - it's undefended.

- The only special action I used was to disrupt the Korean THAAD. It's well worth the 200 points.

- As noted by Dismalpseudoscience and gosnold there are limited SM-3's. With the Korean THAAD out of play it is left to those SM-3's and Patriots. The Patriots are also very effective at closer range but you can overwhelm them.

- There are two ASAT battery's with two missiles each. I fired them singly and got 3 out of 4 hits. Good for 300 points.


It really was a fun scenario but I have to admit there's something not quite right with attacking the US/Japan/South Korea and sinking a US Carrier Battle Group!

Hope it helps.

Edit: spelling




jmax -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo *CONTAINS SPOILERS* (5/28/2017 12:12:23 PM)

Good tips, guys. Can anyone tell me what the point threshold for victory is?

I think I've got a good handle on how to win this one now. As mentioned above, not losing aircraft is key—but that shouldn't mean not using them, you just can't afford to let the AI play 'em unless it's AEW escort. I had a nearly 20:1 kill/loss ratio in air-to-air, and the ones I did lose I either got too close or (more often) just wasn't paying attention. While you don't win points for shooting down enemy aircraft, you can give your slow-moving cruise missiles a better chance at overwhelming their defenses by engaging and destroying their surged air forces.

@ridgeback68: It occurred to me that the H-6s' ALCMs could thwart Guam's THAAD, but I'd expect you'd need pretty much all of them to overwhelm the PAC batteries. It sounds like you had a turkey shoot, but based on your experience, what would you say is the bare minimum of Badgers needed to crater the runways? Like Dismal, I wrote it off, but for different reasons—it's just such a long way, and seems kinda gamey not having to worry about ROC or Philippine airspace in this timeline. It's certainly a viable avenue for attack, though, assuming local superiority in the SCS.



jmax -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo *CONTAINS SPOILERS* (5/28/2017 12:29:44 PM)

quote:


It really was a fun scenario but I have to admit there's something not quite right with attacking the US/Japan/South Korea and sinking a US Carrier Battle Group!


Yea, I know what you mean. Bit of a spine-tingling chill when I sank the Reagan—the highest priority target was also by far the easiest to hit. I suppose that may not be unrealistic as it's difficult to hide 100,000 tons of American diplomacy, but then I would also expect its real world counterparts to be more stingy and discriminating with their ABM supply so close to Yokosuka!



ridgeback68 -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo *CONTAINS SPOILERS* (5/28/2017 12:57:31 PM)

quote:

Can anyone tell me what the point threshold for victory is?


2000 points


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmax
It sounds like you had a turkey shoot, but based on your experience, what would you say is the bare minimum of Badgers needed to crater the runways?


The Runways are 1400 damage points and the KD-20's are 500 DP each so it only takes three missiles to kill the runway. With all 17 Badgers you have 100+ missiles. It's a massacre.

quote:

...seems kinda gamey not having to worry about ROC or Philippine airspace in this timeline. It's certainly a viable avenue for attack, though, assuming local superiority in the SCS.


Yeah but I looked at it this way - the shooting war hadn't started yet and I flew in international airspace between those two countries...[:)].



mikmykWS -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo *CONTAINS SPOILERS* (5/28/2017 1:56:08 PM)

Some great approaches guys. It's always neat to see how people solve problems.

Mike



jmax -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo *CONTAINS SPOILERS* (5/28/2017 4:40:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ridgeback68
Yeah but I looked at it this way - the shooting war hadn't started yet and I flew in international airspace between those two countries...[:)].


Yea, that's easy to forget with US/ROK/Japan set to 'hostile' at scenario start. First thing I did was set posture to 'unfriendly' and set patrol areas and ROEs to avoid any premature 'misunderstandings'.

However, I found it hard to resist the temptation to say "Good enough, start the fireworks"—you get 6 hours, so I figure at least half that should be prep before the balloon goes up, and the more time you spend doing that is less time spent fending off the counter-salvo. But then you also wanna give your slow-moving ground-based LACMs a good head start and the trigger finger itches whenever those low-hanging satellite buzz overhead.

I think a lot of the problems I had with fuel usage were a result of my habitual sneakiness in mustering bomber and attack formations at low level. Next play-through I think I'll send them cruising at high altitude in ambiguous directions and hope to trigger as many intercept missions as possible to wear em thin ("Just a drill, nothing to see here folks!"). But I just can't fathom sending all my Badgers through the Luzon strait without a significant long-range fighter escort—first, the AI just isn't equipped to cope with it; the Philippines may roll over and the Americans won't pull the trigger, but realistically Taiwan might take one for the team and start shoot them down. At the very least there should be a significant number of fighters waiting for their missiles when they get in range...



ridgeback68 -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo *CONTAINS SPOILERS* (5/29/2017 1:58:05 AM)

Hey jmax, don't overthink it. [:)] It is what it is - the fact is that Taiwan and Philippines are not players in this scenario and as long as you play within the boundaries of the scenario you can do whatever you want.

A couple of other things to note:

- this is a pre-emptive strike and while the US and allies may be at a heightened state of alert, like putting a CVBG in the area, the bullets haven't started flying yet. It's like a 2018 Chinese "Pearl Harbour" style surprise attack - you can be patient and spend time building up a picture of what's happening with the ELINT from the AWACS and your own satellites and getting your assets in place. Then when it's time - unleash hell. 6 hours doesn't seem like much but it's plenty of time.

- shooting down US satellites doesn't seem to trigger a hostile response from the US. I imagine the US are issuing diplomatic protests to the Chinese aggression but haven't put themselves on a war footing just yet.

- sending the Badger's down south is out of range of the available EW radar coverage and you are just exercising your "freedom of navigation" rights! The KD-20's have a 1,000+ nm range which is well out of range of any EW system so they wouldn't be detected until they are near their Guam targets. Even if Guam had a CAP the number of inbound missiles would swamp the defences.

- If you *really* wanted to escort the Badgers past Taiwan then I imagine you could use your tankers to keep some Flankers fueled up. The Badgers don't need refueling. They have the legs to make it easily even if you use bursts of low level flying.

- The Flounders do not have air-to-air refueling capability and have relatively short legs if flying them at low level. You have to be careful with their management but they can make it to within range of Okinawa and get the hell out before any counter-air response is launched.

It's a challenging scenario but it's a lot of fun when you do crack it. If this is a true reflection of the forces the PRC can muster then it's more than a little scary...

Edit: spelling (again).



jmax -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo *CONTAINS SPOILERS* (5/29/2017 10:57:15 AM)

Don't overthink it? But that's half the fun for me! It's an overthinking kinda game [;)]

I like to do a bit of roleplaying in my head with CMANO, which requires a lot of self-imposed rules. And while this scenario is brilliant in terms of balance and unit composition, it just feels pretty unrealistic in a number of ways, which may be a necessary sacrifice for the sake of making it fun to play—my point is that the AI scripting could be improved in terms of coordinating appropriate responses to certain moves, conserving Reagan's ship-borne ABMs, and so on. If it were me I'd probably enforce some No-Navigation zones, but again, that wouldn't really add anything and would detract from the fun. [:)]



jmax -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo *CONTAINS SPOILERS* (5/29/2017 1:24:12 PM)

I've been overthinking about this a lot actually, and I just had a wild idea—been waiting for the new features in Chains of War to restart my own project, Breaking the Chain—looking forward to seeing different firing solutions for "Salvo", because I'd like to rebuild this from the other side, and recreate some of those strategies as AI scripts to increase responsiveness to player moves. It occurred to me this could work both ways—improving the responsiveness of the AI in both scenarios using a rock-paper-scissors approach to different tactics.



mikmykWS -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo *CONTAINS SPOILERS* (5/29/2017 1:35:23 PM)

Uh..some days you just want to take up goldfarming...Is that still a thing? Anybody know?

Mike



jmax -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo *CONTAINS SPOILERS* (5/29/2017 2:15:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Uh..some days you just want to take up goldfarming...Is that still a thing? Anybody know?

Mike


Haha find a way to recreate blockhain math in minecraft and we'll pan for bitcoin [:D]



CCIP-subsim -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo *CONTAINS SPOILERS* (5/29/2017 2:16:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Uh..some days you just want to take up goldfarming...Is that still a thing? Anybody know?

Mike


It's a thing. But mostly a thing done by bots nowadays [;)]



mikmykWS -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo *CONTAINS SPOILERS* (5/29/2017 3:14:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CCIPsubsim


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Uh..some days you just want to take up goldfarming...Is that still a thing? Anybody know?

Mike


It's a thing. But mostly a thing done by bots nowadays [;)]


Might be the thing for me then [:'(]



Mike



mikmykWS -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo *CONTAINS SPOILERS* (5/29/2017 3:18:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmax


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Uh..some days you just want to take up goldfarming...Is that still a thing? Anybody know?

Mike


Haha find a way to recreate blockhain math in minecraft and we'll pan for bitcoin [:D]


Ah don't deal in bitcoin although suspect if hubris makes the world go belly-up it might be the way to go.

Mike



jmax -> RE: Scenario 4: Salvo *CONTAINS SPOILERS* (6/1/2017 2:23:24 PM)

Well, I got an 'Average' score of 1790 on my second try.

SPOILER ALERT:

*
*
*

At some point your constellation of Yaogan satellites will buzz Benfold, Kongo, and Reagan almost simultaneously. That's when I flipped the switch on Korean THAAD and my ASuW Strike missions, followed by IRBM/MRBM in order of distance calculated to achieve saturation over the Sea of Japan just as their BMD-capable ships were busy targeting my ASBM. Held a brigade of DF-26 in reserve for mop up—only targets to survive the first wave were Misawa, the two runways at Osan and the left airstrip at Kadena which was only partially damaged. Sent half my H-6s to Guam via the Luzon Strait and the other half around the top of North Korea to take care of Misawa and target hangars and tarmacs at Yokota and Iwakuni. 16 LACMs were enough to destroy both runways at Andersen with a healthy margin and the rest took out hangers. Osan was a tough nut to crack and I never did, though I didn't press the advantage of local air superiority as hard as I might have in escorting my CJ-10. All strike aircraft were ordered to abort attack runs before getting in range. Last three hours were spent shooting (and missing) satellites and swatting SLCM countersalvos.

Not a bad result, but nothing to write Beijing about [8D]

SIDE: United States-Japan-South Korea
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
3x F-15J Eagle J-MSIP
1x A/C Hangar (2x Medium Aircraft)
5x A/C Hangar (2x Large Aircraft)
2x F/A-18D Hornet
3x A/C Hangar (2x Very Large Aircraft)
32x F/A-18E Super Hornet
8x F/A-18F Super Hornet
5x EA-18G Growler
3x E-2C Hawkeye 2000
1x CVN 76 Ronald Reagan [Nimitz Class]
2x CG 59 Princeton [Ticonderoga Baseline 3, VLS]
1x DDG 85 McCampbell [Arleigh Burke Flight IIA]
4x FA-50 Golden Eagle
6x F-16CJ Blk 52 Falcon [KF-16C]
2x F-16CM Blk 42 Falcon
6x A/C Hangar (1x Very Large Aircraft)
1x Radar (AN/FPS-130)
1x Radar (ASR-9 GCA)


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
46x RIM-161E SM-3 NTW Blk IIA
34x RIM-161B SM-3 NTW Blk IA
120x MIM-104F Patriot PAC-3 MSE
2x MIM-104F Patriot PAC-3 ERINT
16x MIM-104E Patriot PAC-2 GEM+
35x MIM-104C Patriot PAC-2
65x RIM-174A-2 ERAM SM-6MR Blk IA [Dual I]
36x UGM-109E Tomahawk Blk IV TACTOM
28x UGM-109E Tomahawk Blk IV TACTOM
2x 127mm/54 HE-CVT [HiFrag]
4x 20mm/100 Mk15 Phalanx Blk 1B Burst [300 rnds]
38x Mk214 Sea Gnat Chaff [Seduction]
20x Mk234 Nulka
6x Mk59 Mod 0 Floating Decoy
51x AIM-120B AMRAAM
66x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]
17x AIM-9S Sidewinder
13x 20mm/85 M61A1 Vulcan Burst [100 rnds]
9x AIM-120D AMRAAM P3I.4
3x AN/ALE-50 [RT-1646/ALE]
48x AAM-4B Kai [Type 99]
16x AAM-3 [Type 90]
3x RIM-66M-1 SM-2MR Blk III
5x AAM-5 [Type 04]
5x SAM-4 Chu-SAM [Type 03]



SIDE: China
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
6x SC-19
36x DF-16B [Penetrator]
11x DF-16B [Submunitions]
24x DF-26C [Conventional]
24x DF-21D [ASBM, Conventional, CSS-5 Mod-4]
24x DF-15B [Conventional, CSS-6 Mod-2]
36x DF-15C [Penetrator, CSS-6 Mod-3]
44x DF-21C [Conventional, CSS-5 Mod-3]
26x DF-16B RV [Penetrator]
11x DF-16B RV [Submunitions]
21x DF-21D RV [ASBM, CSS-5 Mod-4]
20x DF-15B RV [Conventional, CSS-6 Mod-2]
36x DF-15C RV [Penetrator, CSS-6 Mod-3]
24x DF-26C RV [Conventional]
42x DF-21C RV [Conventional, CSS-5 Mod-3]
108x PL-12
176x KD-20 [CJ-10A] ALCM
96x DF-10 GLCM
4x Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]
7x PL-10
62x PL-15
5x SA-20a Gargoyle [48N6E]



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