Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (Full Version)

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Korvar -> Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (7/30/2017 7:01:50 PM)

I'm playing through a Scenario #009 (Dec 8th Quiet China) campaign as the Allies. It's Dec '42, and I've run into a snag with recombining LCU divisions.

It's a familiar problem based on the searches I did through the forum, although I wasn't able to find clear answers to both of the particular situations - I'll explain:

The issue is clear enough - device mismatches. For the uninitiated, before LCUs can combine into their parent unit, the unit values (i.e. device list) for each subunit must match. When there is a mismatch, the offending device(s) will be marked with double asterisks (**).

So the first situation that can happen is that one of the subunits upgrades a particular device before the others. I found the answers to this situation in my forum searches: freeze upgrades for the applicable LCUs, stockpile the devices in question, and turn on upgrades for one LCU at a time while releasing the stockpile(s), until all LCU devices match. Simple enough.

The second situation that I wasn't able to find a clear answer for is if one of the subunits contains a device which none of the other subunits contain.

I'll use an example from my own campaign to demonstrate. I created the Australian 7th Division (#5975) from its various subunits, then split it into the division A/B/C subunits to let it rebuild. Somehow the A subunit has x2 of the 3.7" Mountain Guns while the B and C subunits do not.


Unit A unit screen w/ TOE displayed:
[image]http://i.imgur.com/wEO9Bje.png[/image]


Unit A unit screen w/ unit values displayed:
[image]http://i.imgur.com/XXq0dKb.png[/image]


Unit B unit screen w/ unit values displayed (TOE matches unit A; unit C also matches unit B):
[image]http://i.imgur.com/244FUEY.png[/image]




As you can see, the TOE of the subunits does not contain the 3.7" Mountain Gun, yet the TOE of the inactive parent unit DOES include it:

(from WitPAE Editor)
[image]http://i.imgur.com/R7pQLZr.png[/image]





So the question is - how can I remove the 3.7" Mountain Guns from the A subunit or add them to the B and C subunits? Phrased differently, how do you force an LCU to drop device(s) which are not part of its current TOE?

Thanks for any help!



For reference -

LCUs using the 3.7" Mountain Gun (device #1070):
[image]http://i.imgur.com/I5Qyq7B.png[/image]

LCUs using the 3.7" Jungle Gun (device #1069):
[image]http://i.imgur.com/Y0Qlx9T.png[/image]

Device pool (I've already turned stockpile on for both devices):
[image]http://i.imgur.com/jIquFa4.png[/image]




BBfanboy -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (7/30/2017 7:47:54 PM)

I think you can amend the devices in the units (but not the TOE) in the editor to ADD the jungle guns to the Aussie units that do not have them and then they should combine. You must get the slot position of the devices the same in each unit.

You might not even need to wait for some jungle guns to appear in the units that you added to - I think once the device slots are in alignment they should combine. But you might need to run the turn to get the changes to promulgate to the game.



Korvar -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (7/30/2017 8:04:29 PM)

I looked in the editor for the applicable subunits - but the subunits all have numbers in the 8000 series. The editor stops at 7999 and only contains an entry for the parent unit (under the Locations tab, where all the LCUs are listed).

Maybe I'm not looking in the right place?



witpqs -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (7/30/2017 9:00:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Korvar

I looked in the editor for the applicable subunits - but the subunits all have numbers in the 8000 series. The editor stops at 7999 and only contains an entry for the parent unit (under the Locations tab, where all the LCUs are listed).

Maybe I'm not looking in the right place?

Unfortunately you are looking in the right place. The /A /B /C units are created during the game by dividing the unit during the orders phase, so you won't find them in the editor.

I'm not sure what the best solution is. I suppose you could load the units onto lots of small ships and arrange to lose the one(s) with the target devices. Might be better to just leave them uncombined unless and until nature runs its course (the devices get destroyed in combat).



Chris21wen -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (7/30/2017 9:25:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Korvar

So the first situation that can happen is that one of the subunits upgrades a particular device before the others. I found the answers to this situation in my forum searches: freeze upgrades for the applicable LCUs, stockpile the devices in question, and turn on upgrades for one LCU at a time while releasing the stockpile(s), until all LCU devices match. Simple enough.



This is the only way I know off. I don't think you can edit the scenario once it's started.

I learnt a long time ago to turn off upgrades to units broken down into sub units for this very reason. It still happens to me even so. In your case just turn off replacements for all units using the mountain gun except for the two 7th Div sub units in question. Once one units gets one turn that one off, then wait until the last gets one to. At this point you should be able to recombine. It shouldn't take very long as you have 4 in the pool, supply willing.

Note that I'd also freeze the jungle gun and turn off upgrades in all three of the 7th DIv sub units thus stopping accidental upgrades.

If it was me I'd turn off upgrades to all units, controlling them manually through freezing/turning on upgrades as needed.



szmike -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (7/31/2017 1:11:05 AM)

That particular division is weird case, as it shows 0 required devices in TOE, yet the device is listed (bug?). And it didn't happen through accidental upgrades, it arrived as 3 brigades of which one had 2x 3.7" Mountain Guns, others none.



Chris21wen -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (7/31/2017 8:12:00 AM)

Possibly small bug but I think not.

I did some testing of this problem a long time ago and here's how I believe it works.

The reason a device is not in a TOE is because a TOE for a sub unit is created when the parent is split from whatever makes up the parent TOE at that time, rounding down. If the rounding down creates zero device then the device is omitted from the sub unit's TOE. What sub units get is split equally with any excess going to /A. All this is done on a slot for slot basis. When you recombine units each device slot is checked against the sub unit's TOE equivalent slot any differences prevents recombining into the parent unit. Unit devices that are not in the sub unit's TOE are simply added to the parent unit, again slot for slot.

To complicate the issue you also have to take into account possible TOE upgrades. When the 7th AUS Div enters (all-be-it divided) its TOE is the AIF 41 Inf Div which has no mountain guns. This TOE upgrades in Sept 42 to the Jungle TOE Div which has mountain guns. However this doesn't look important here as the div is clearly still of the AIF 41 Inf. (No mountain guns and it still has M3A1s).

Next complication. The Mountain gun upgrades to Jungle gun in Dec 42. It's now Dec 42.

Now to your problem
So having sat down and looked at it properly my earlier solution won't work.

I noticed that the device usage for /A and /B is the mountain gun while /C usage is the Jungle gun. (Says it already has 3). It's /C TOE that's causing the problem.

You said '... (TOE matches unit A; unit C also matches unit B): ' but the image is for the current composition and not the TOE. I suspect if you look at the /C's TOE you'll find Jungle guns. If so turn off upgrades for all unit with mountain guns. Turn off replacements for /A and /B. Also turn off replacements for any unit that already has Jungle guns and wait. It shouldn't take that long as /A only has 2 x mountain guns and /B zero. You are building 12 Jungle guns per month so I'd say 7 days ish supply willing.

As to why it happened or why /C shows an amount of 3 jungle guns in Current Device Usage yet the device pool says you've used only one??



btd64 -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (7/31/2017 12:58:13 PM)

Please note that the ** next to the device quantity indicates the jungle gun as the problem. FYI....GP



Korvar -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (7/31/2017 4:23:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I suppose you could load the units onto lots of small ships and arrange to lose the one(s) with the target devices. Might be better to just leave them uncombined unless and until nature runs its course (the devices get destroyed in combat).


Although it would be a bit of a hassle to get the division out of the jungles of Thailand and back to the coast, that's not a bad idea. I think making them the vanguard of the upcoming assault of Bangkok will also probably do the trick - even though I'd prefer them going in as a complete division.



Korvar -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (7/31/2017 4:38:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

The reason a device is not in a TOE is because a TOE for a sub unit is created when the parent is split from whatever makes up the parent TOE at that time, rounding down. If the rounding down creates zero device then the device is omitted from the sub unit's TOE. What sub units get is split equally with any excess going to /A. All this is done on a slot for slot basis. When you recombine units each device slot is checked against the sub unit's TOE equivalent slot any differences prevents recombining into the parent unit. Unit devices that are not in the sub unit's TOE are simply added to the parent unit, again slot for slot.




After thinking about it for awhile, I believe this is what happened. The division had picked up two of the 3.7" Mountain Guns (possibly from one of the original subunits) before I split it, and since there weren't enough to go around for three subunits, it just assigned them to the /A subunit. It would've been nice for the slot to have been added to the other subunits with 0x devices, or to be able to drop a device to rot in the jungle, but that's just wishful thinking.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

To complicate the issue you also have to take into account possible TOE upgrades. When the 7th AUS Div enters (all-be-it divided) its TOE is the AIF 41 Inf Div which has no mountain guns. This TOE upgrades in Sept 42 to the Jungle TOE Div which has mountain guns. However this doesn't look important here as the div is clearly still of the AIF 41 Inf. (No mountain guns and it still has M3A1s).


That is correct - here is the 6th Australian, which has not been upgraded yet, as comparison:

[image]http://i.imgur.com/yrBDT17.png[/image]


What the upgraded TOE will be:

[image]http://i.imgur.com/1kG22wz.png[/image]



quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

I noticed that the device usage for /A and /B is the mountain gun while /C usage is the Jungle gun. (Says it already has 3). It's /C TOE that's causing the problem.

You said '... (TOE matches unit A; unit C also matches unit B): ' but the image is for the current composition and not the TOE. I suspect if you look at the /C's TOE you'll find Jungle guns. If so turn off upgrades for all unit with mountain guns. Turn off replacements for /A and /B. Also turn off replacements for any unit that already has Jungle guns and wait. It shouldn't take that long as /A only has 2 x mountain guns and /B zero. You are building 12 Jungle guns per month so I'd say 7 days ish supply willing.

As to why it happened or why /C shows an amount of 3 jungle guns in Current Device Usage yet the device pool says you've used only one??


I think you got it right before - the /A subunit is the only one that got the 3.7" Mountain Guns (and hence a slot for them) when the division was split.

Here's the TOE for /C:

[image]http://i.imgur.com/hk1fcct.png[/image]


Plus its unit values:

[image]http://i.imgur.com/d14QCIU.png[/image]


For good measure, the TOE of /B:

[image]http://i.imgur.com/0xwqfRx.png[/image]



Yaab -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (8/1/2017 4:37:51 PM)

Well, for one, I never ever allow upgrades for split units just to avoid the hassle.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (8/1/2017 5:27:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Well, for one, I never ever allow upgrades for split units just to avoid the hassle.


If you don't you lose immense amounts of time waiting for pool fill.



Korvar -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (8/1/2017 8:05:38 PM)

I've learned that lesson - luckily the 6th Australian Div seems to be the only division affected before I could turn off upgrades.

And I think the upcoming meat-grinder in Bangkok will take care of the 6th's organizational problems in short order.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (8/1/2017 8:12:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Korvar

I've learned that lesson - luckily the 6th Australian Div seems to be the only division affected before I could turn off upgrades.

And I think the upcoming meat-grinder in Bangkok will take care of the 6th's organizational problems in short order.


The Allies go through a huge squad upgrade on base forces in 1943 I believe. About 12 squads per. You can reuse the same pool over and over if you do it correctly and don't let bigger units steal the pool until the BFs are set. Same with 1/3 size squad pools. You can upgrade a whole division over three turns with 1/3 worth of squads.



Chris21wen -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (8/2/2017 7:03:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Korvar

I've learned that lesson - luckily the 6th Australian Div seems to be the only division affected before I could turn off upgrades.

And I think the upcoming meat-grinder in Bangkok will take care of the 6th's organizational problems in short order.


The Allies go through a huge squad upgrade on base forces in 1943 I believe. About 12 squads per. You can reuse the same pool over and over if you do it correctly and don't let bigger units steal the pool until the BFs are set. Same with 1/3 size squad pools. You can upgrade a whole division over three turns with 1/3 worth of squads.


Yeh, works for squads and combat eng where they are upgraded and added back to the pool but for other stuff it's 1½x what a unit currently has and they don't, being simple added to the pool. So in the case above for /A above you need 3 in the pool.



Chris21wen -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (8/2/2017 7:06:18 AM)

I should have added that none of this matters for the Japanese.  If you have enough supply they get upgraded but it's still wise not to upgrade split units unless you have the supply. I think supply needs are based on device size but I stand corrected if not.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (8/2/2017 6:07:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


Yeh, works for squads and combat eng where they are upgraded and added back to the pool but for other stuff it's 1½x what a unit currently has and they don't, being simple added to the pool. So in the case above for /A above you need 3 in the pool.


Right, but I was responding to Yaab's statement that he never splits. Even if the non-squad devices lag, it's worth it to upgrade to new squads as soon as possible.



Chris21wen -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (8/3/2017 6:11:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


Yeh, works for squads and combat eng where they are upgraded and added back to the pool but for other stuff it's 1½x what a unit currently has and they don't, being simple added to the pool. So in the case above for /A above you need 3 in the pool.


Right, but I was responding to Yaab's statement that he never splits. Even if the non-squad devices lag, it's worth it to upgrade to new squads as soon as possible.


Me to.



crsutton -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (8/3/2017 3:56:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Well, for one, I never ever allow upgrades for split units just to avoid the hassle.


I always upgrade infantry squads in brigade sizes. By upgrading a couple or three battalions, then disbanding them, you will then have sufficient numbers in the pools to start upgrading brigades right away. I don't like to wait, especially for the 1942-43 Allied upgrades, (the AT values are critical). The key is you have to go in and manually set stockpiles on for any device that you do not want to upgrade and this involves a little more work. If you are willing to do this then upgrading split division is not an issue and allows you to get the process started much sooner. It is not that hard to pull off.



Korvar -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (8/7/2017 2:12:28 AM)

Let me check if I'm understanding everyone correctly - the Allied OOB can be upgraded more quickly by upgrading units piecemeal, then disbanding them to return the new devices to the pool. Those same devices are then used to continually upgrade more units (allowing more/larger units to be upgraded as production adds to the pool), while the disbanded units eventually come back as upgraded reinforcements.

And thanks for all the responses! [&o]



witpqs -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (8/7/2017 2:22:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Korvar

Let me check if I'm understanding everyone correctly - the Allied OOB can be upgraded more quickly by upgrading units piecemeal, then disbanding them to return the new devices to the pool. Those same devices are then used to continually upgrade more units (allowing more/larger units to be upgraded as production adds to the pool), while the disbanded units eventually come back as upgraded reinforcements.

And thanks for all the responses! [&o]

And this was by design.



Yaab -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (11/26/2021 6:16:02 PM)


Thread resurrection.

I am on 3 January 1942 in my campaign against the Jap AI.

The device in question, 3.7# Mountain Gun (device ID 1070) is not building. The build rate is 6 guns per month starting 12/1941 until 12/1942. My pool is 0, used from pool is also 0. My units use 66 such guns, and need 30 guns to fill their TOEs. By January 1942, I should have at least 4 guns in the pool.


I also found another non-building device: 81mm mortar (ID 935) used by three Philipine units on map.


[image]https://i.postimg.cc/13LqM8Jr/RESTART-XIII-mountin-guns-not-builidng.png[/image]



RangerJoe -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (11/26/2021 7:38:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab


Thread resurrection.

I am on 3 January 1942 in my campaign against the Jap AI.

The device in question, 3.7# Mountain Gun (device ID 1070) is not building. The build rate is 6 guns per month starting 12/1941 until 12/1942. My pool is 0, used from pool is also 0. My units use 66 such guns, and need 30 guns to fill their TOEs. By January 1942, I should have at least 4 guns in the pool.


I also found another non-building device: 81mm mortar (ID 935) used by three Philipine units on map.


[image]https://i.postimg.cc/13LqM8Jr/RESTART-XIII-mountin-guns-not-builidng.png[/image]


That sometimes happens, then you may get even more than the build rate. I think of a build rate of 6 for the month as a 6/30 chance of getting open in a day. If Alfred was here, he could probably have the part of the manual quoted or a thread link to refer to.



HansBolter -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (11/26/2021 8:28:17 PM)

The same variable that will sometimes result in no production on any given day is also built into the aircraft production and transfer model.



Ian R -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (11/27/2021 3:18:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: szmike

That particular division is weird case, as it shows 0 required devices in TOE, yet the device is listed (bug?). And it didn't happen through accidental upgrades, it arrived as 3 brigades of which one had 2x 3.7" Mountain Guns, others none.


Where a unit arrives in pieces (brigades, regiments, battalions etc) device mismathces do not prevent combination into a division (or whatever the larger parent unit is). So, the various bits of the 7th division can be combined (once) despite the equipment oddities. Andymac has said that in that situation, the odd bits of equipment are moved to the bottom of the list. So, if of the initial three brigades of the 7th, two have gun X and the other one has gun Y in corresponding data slots, and Y has not yet upgraded to X, they will combine (usual conditions required - in the same hex, same HQ, same move/combat mode etc, and you need all the various other bits of the division), the division can then take replacement gun X's up to TOE, and the gun Y's become supernumeraries until lost/destroyed.

However, when you divide a unit into A/B/C elements, if equipment mismatches develop due to upgrades or in this case, those supernumerary guns being in a data line that is not repeated in the other breakdown units (in this case "wpn-7" in the B element doesn't match and you have 14 lines against 13), it won't recombine until everything is back in place.

The suggestion of loading the A element onto a bunch of small ships is not a bad one, and you may not need to send the ones with the offending mountain guns to assault land at Truk to get rid of them - you could try sending that (those) fragment(s) to Sydney, and checking to see if you can disband them back into the pools.



Ian R -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (11/27/2021 3:27:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen
...

As to why it happened or why /C shows an amount of 3 jungle guns in Current Device Usage yet the device pool says you've used only one??


Some might have arrived on a convoy which disbanded to the pool. That seems to throw the reported numbers out.



Nomad -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (11/27/2021 3:41:11 AM)

Could you click on the unit organization button for one of the 7th div sub units and take a screenshot and post it?



Yaab -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (11/27/2021 5:43:46 AM)

Well, I was working under an an assumption that a ratio of 6 built devices per 30 days simply means that I get 1 device every 5 days. If that 6/30-chance thing fails for 29 days does that mean the odds somehow switch to a 100% chance and I get 6 devices on the 30 day of a month (last day of production month)?



RangerJoe -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (11/27/2021 9:21:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Well, I was working under an an assumption that a ratio of 6 built devices per 30 days simply means that I get 1 device every 5 days. If that 6/30-chance thing fails for 29 days does that mean the odds somehow switch to a 100% chance and I get 6 devices on the 30 day of a month (last day of production month)?


No. The only time that you would get more than one per day is when the production rate is 31 per month or more. I have had an aircraft production of 2 per month yet some months I would receive 4 of them.

Any extra devices as described above sometimes may be removed from the unit and put back into storage - at least, if I recall correctly.



Yaab -> RE: Reconciling LCU Device Mismatches (11/27/2021 10:47:37 AM)

What about very short production runs lasting i.e. three months? Cany you receive 0 devices in month 1, 0 devices in month 2, and 18 devices in month 3?



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