RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (Full Version)

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HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (8/20/2017 3:36:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Dinglir - Well done for talking through a head on mass unit clash. They are not the easiest thing to describe in an AAR, but it is part of the variety of types of engagement you need to read about as a player.

This goes very well alongside the "Defence of the Soviet Union begins one hex west of Pskow" by HardLuckYetAgain.


I need to update my post but Dinglir has been giving me major problems in our game :( After I kick the cat a few times, kick the neighbors dog, and work on my turn to get it back to Dinglir I have no time to update my AAR :(

But I have to say that Dinglir writes "extremely" well! I wish I had his skill that he has in composing his writing.



Dinglir -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (8/20/2017 4:48:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Dinglir - Well done for talking through a head on mass unit clash.


I figured it would do no harm going through the attacks in detail - and if a discussion was sparked on this, then I would be sure to learn a few things.



Dinglir -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/2/2017 4:27:06 PM)

Turn seven.



Telemecus -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/2/2017 4:46:48 PM)

I'd be quite interested in HardLuckYetAgain's thoughts on this turn. Given the Soviet investment in making a hard defence at Pskow I was almost expecting a continued serious 1 or 2 hex a turn slogging match. But that was a serious indentation into the Pskow defences. Is this sort of Axis inroads what you expect at this point or was it exceptional?



Dinglir -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/2/2017 5:12:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Given the Soviet investment in making a hard defence at Pskow I was almost expecting a continued serious 1 or 2 hex a turn slogging match. But that was a serious indentation into the Pskow defences. Is this sort of Axis inroads what you expect at this point or was it exceptional?


At this point I expected a full withdrawal towards Leningrad of the Soviet defenders and a rapid move north towards the Luga river.

This is incidentally also the turn where in hindsight I really wanted those Panzers from the center helping out in the attack north....



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/2/2017 8:10:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Given the Soviet investment in making a hard defence at Pskow I was almost expecting a continued serious 1 or 2 hex a turn slogging match. But that was a serious indentation into the Pskow defences. Is this sort of Axis inroads what you expect at this point or was it exceptional?


At this point I expected a full withdrawal towards Leningrad of the Soviet defenders and a rapid move north towards the Luga river.

This is incidentally also the turn where in hindsight I really wanted those Panzers from the center helping out in the attack north....


You had panzers in the center? I don't see any in your photo nor from my recon during the game.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/2/2017 8:14:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
I'm fretting over where to place one unit and it is driving me nuts


I would suggest Baku....


Hmmmmm, Baku. Too far for this unit. So, morale is in the "pits", units are surrendering in "droves", Rail-lines are "stressed to the max", airforce is "decimated", I think I will "ATTACK".


Turn 7 is where I said this in an earlier post. I'm true to my word ;-)



Dinglir -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/2/2017 8:26:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Given the Soviet investment in making a hard defence at Pskow I was almost expecting a continued serious 1 or 2 hex a turn slogging match. But that was a serious indentation into the Pskow defences. Is this sort of Axis inroads what you expect at this point or was it exceptional?


At this point I expected a full withdrawal towards Leningrad of the Soviet defenders and a rapid move north towards the Luga river.

This is incidentally also the turn where in hindsight I really wanted those Panzers from the center helping out in the attack north....


You had panzers in the center? I don't see any in your photo nor from my recon during the game.


You are right. I had already moved the Panzers north on turn six.

I will change my remark to "Imagine what my attacks could have done, if those Panzers from the center had moved north earlier, instead of just idling by west of Vitebsk".



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/2/2017 8:30:23 PM)

Would you like me to post my moves for turn 7 here Dinglir?



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/2/2017 8:31:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Given the Soviet investment in making a hard defence at Pskow I was almost expecting a continued serious 1 or 2 hex a turn slogging match. But that was a serious indentation into the Pskow defences. Is this sort of Axis inroads what you expect at this point or was it exceptional?


At this point I expected a full withdrawal towards Leningrad of the Soviet defenders and a rapid move north towards the Luga river.

This is incidentally also the turn where in hindsight I really wanted those Panzers from the center helping out in the attack north....


You had panzers in the center? I don't see any in your photo nor from my recon during the game.


You are right. I had already moved the Panzers north on turn six.

I will change my remark to "Imagine what my attacks could have done, if those Panzers from the center had moved north earlier, instead of just idling by west of Vitebsk".


Idling? You were wasting petrol? Shame on you Sir!



Telemecus -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/2/2017 8:31:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Would you like me to post my moves for turn 7 here Dinglir?



As a spectator an AAR alternating from each side would be fun!



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/2/2017 8:33:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Would you like me to post my moves for turn 7 here Dinglir?



As a spectator an AAR alternating from each side would be fun!


I concur, just want to make sure it is fine with Dinglir first :)



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/2/2017 9:02:45 PM)

Turn 7 Dinglir devastated my Airforce this turn. By the end of the turn I had lost 975 aircraft and over 30 Recon which Dinglir did some very nice raids on on my Recon bases :( I have since corrected that oversight on my part.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/FEA4338DF11C4E78BD419E00659E905C.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/2/2017 10:06:05 PM)

Since I don't do snapshots at the beginning of a turn I will use Dinglir's photo of his ending turn to show my intentions for 7. My whole strat for Leningrad is to delay as much as possible to hold onto Leningrad (Leningrad >>> Moscow). I always leave my right flank at Pskov weaker than the rest of my lines(Germans Left flank). The reason being I rather the Germans go to the German left than my middle or my left flank towards lake Ilmen. I rarely withdraw or retreat when I'm defending Leningrad. Only doing so to strengthen my lines. To be honest withdrawing/retreating helps the Germans. As such I go on the attack with Zhukov.

1. I want to bunch the Germans up into a pile and restrict their movement, not so much for supply but for attack purposes on their next turn.
2. I want to occupy the Plyussa River line if at all possible or make the Germans cross it.
3. I want to occupy the Heavy Forest areas which are excellent defensive spots.
4. Will try and use as few troops as possible to have units in Reserve for the coming attacks by the Germans. This is key since the Soviets sux monkey ballz at digging in.
5. Will need to force a retreat (at a minimum) one armor Division (marked A) and one Moto (marked B) for defense next turn. If I have a unit to get into the hex to the west of the Panzer (marked A) (The town of Lyady) then I will try and route the Panzer but to do that I need to retreat another Moto unit to the SW of the Panzer. I have a Calvary unit with plenty of movement so I place him in Lyady to the West of the Panzer. So I'm going to go for "broke". I will need to attack the Moto unit SW of the Panzer (marked C) before attacking the Panzer to route the Panzer.
6. Attack hexes marked "D" first before anything else & "E" last if I have the Units.


[image]local://upfiles/53556/999D59AADDA447AB90B56D01945B0C11.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/2/2017 10:19:09 PM)

The first attack on hex D barely succeeds :( Yes I have the +1 Soviet Attack bonus otherwise I probably wouldn't have been so ballsy.



[image]local://upfiles/53556/05258B4470874F399E7DFCFAED805F8A.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/2/2017 10:23:21 PM)

The 2nd attack on hex C. Again barely made it because of the Soviet +1.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/55CF42A5DD424951B61C41619A052678.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/2/2017 10:24:37 PM)

Surround and attack hex A. It routed to hex 68 23. I bomb it and move a soviet unit next to it so it routes again and I bomb it again.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/3C0C1CC8E8584792976C3AE6A66E4CC3.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/2/2017 10:27:17 PM)

Then attack hex B & force a retreat.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/87F9FFF9D9464DBBB1070EB36C412AA1.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/2/2017 10:28:48 PM)

Last attack in the North is hex E which I get a retreat, barely. Without the +1 Soviet attack three of these attacks would have failed. Plus the Germans had used all of their MP's making it easier to make the hex retreat from the fatigue.

So now all of the PZ/Moto units are all nice and bunched up and another is on holiday way out west.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/9368B819A7B94C16A9464D41B97E400A.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/2/2017 10:36:19 PM)

Here is the ending picture of my turn for the North as I gave it back to Dinglir. You will notice the routed PZ on holiday to the west, all the PZ/Moto bunched up, the pocket opened up, a layered defense and still have units that didn't move for reserves. Yes I will have some high casualties on routed units but I'm trading that for time. (Please note units with RED center are units with morale over 45 and squad experience over 45, Lime center are units with over 5 battle wins)

[image]local://upfiles/53556/F4C0139E337C4DD1B6803A7B9A85DCA3.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/2/2017 10:43:33 PM)

I saw no Panzers or Moto in front of Moscow area so I decide to attack. I had some good attacks, and "NOT" so good outcomes on some attacks :( (I rather not discuss how many men I lost on some of those failed attacks) But I need to draw pressure away from the Leningrad area but unlikely :(

[image]local://upfiles/53556/C0B23FED2D7E48BD9FF2B16D01C0451A.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/2/2017 10:44:20 PM)

Calvary charge! (plus infantry)

[image]local://upfiles/53556/A040F697F753482CA7781C858C397FDE.jpg[/image]



Crackaces -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/3/2017 12:55:26 AM)

I'm thinking this story has more regarding the road to moscow ..



galex -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/3/2017 1:38:59 AM)

Sov+1 is FAR TOO STRONG especially in an experinced player's hand.
Could not believe 6 Sov Divison can force 3 German infantry Divison to lose ground in 1941,not even in 1942 or later in the real history.
I don't think +1 make any historical results. [:-]



Crackaces -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/3/2017 1:56:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: galex

Sov+1 is FAR TOO STRONG especially in an experinced player's hand.
Could not believe 6 Sov Divison can force 3 German infantry Divison to lose ground in 1941,not even in 1942 or later in the real history.
I don't think +1 make any historical results. [:-]


There is always two conceptions .. historical and playability... in fact it is important and I'm of the opinion it is important to select like opponents.in this case these 2 very good opponents like good games exclusive of historical context. Others might want a more historical game and that's a okay.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/3/2017 2:31:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: galex

Sov+1 is FAR TOO STRONG especially in an experinced player's hand.
Could not believe 6 Sov Divison can force 3 German infantry Divison to lose ground in 1941,not even in 1942 or later in the real history.
I don't think +1 make any historical results. [:-]


Remember, I have the best Soviet Inf Divisions here, I have the best leaders here, I have 90% of my Air Power here. The real reason the motorised and panzer division retreated is because they were fatigued to high heaven. I bet the infantry divisions moved a great deal too. Thus, I don't agree that the +1 is OP during the summer months. I never have on that point. What I have had an issue with is the +1 Soviet attack is in the Winter (even with Mild blizzard). Then the +1 Soviet attack is WAY OP in experienced players hand. I actually don't like playing the Soviet side, I really do sux playing this side. I just picked it up because someone mentioned they would like to see the ridiculousness of the Soviet +1 attack in the winter. Silly me I jumped in head first on this :(

BTW, even without the +1 I can get Germans to retreat. You just do things different.




M60A3TTS -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/4/2017 12:55:25 PM)

I'd like to see a screenshot of Soviet air losses by airframe if someone can manage that.



Dinglir -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/4/2017 2:24:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

I'd like to see a screenshot of Soviet air losses by airframe if someone can manage that.


You can check the Excel spreadsheet I distribute with the AAR.

It shows the estimated number of Soviets airframes still active (at least for some of the airframes).

By my calculations, the Soviets should be at 819 MiG-3's, 335 Yak-1's and 641 LaGG-3's at this point in time. On top of this comes several thousands of I-Type fighters.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/4/2017 2:27:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

I'd like to see a screenshot of Soviet air losses by airframe if someone can manage that.


You can check the Excel spreadsheet I distribute with the AAR.

It shows the estimated number of Soviets airframes still active (at least for some of the airframes).

By my calculations, the Soviets should be at 819 MiG-3's, 335 Yak-1's and 641 LaGG-3's at this point in time. On top of this comes several thousands of I-Type fighters.


The calculations are pretty close :)



Dinglir -> RE: Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome (9/4/2017 2:31:52 PM)

Losses over the previous (for Germans) turn would have been

I-153BS: 32
Su-2: 15
IL-2: 42
R-5: 8
SB-2Rcn: 18
MiG-3: 84
Yak-1: 54
LaGG-3: 37



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