RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (Full Version)

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Crackaces -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (8/26/2017 2:36:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Psych0

Good point Crackaces. At least the first 500 AP will be no probkem but after that I'm not sure. Lots of SUs, leaders and command structure to fix before winter but after that indeed probably not enough to spend on without HQ BU.


You can go mad building forts - although I think there is a coded limit on how many you can build.

And optimise supply - reassigning units to leave them always within a given number of hexes of HQ and/or to HQs as close as possible to supply. This is an ongoing process!

You can also do something similar to the airforce as you do to the army, swap old models to the frozen home command bases or to low experience units which will crash them in training, best aircraft to best experience units.

If you are delving into the Rumanian generals pool to get the best leaders there you will need to spend plenty of points.

And there is ongoing "maintenance" - when generals get killed/withdrawn, units arrive/leave etc/

In other words I do not think you can run out of things to spend points on - its just that there may be diminishing returns.


That is what I was alluding to ... I don't think 1AP spent for the German has an incremental value and at some point during the build up to Red Army 2.0 spending X amount of points to switch a corps to a better supply chain is not equal to Soviet points spent. But I am lurking in this thread to be proved wrong.
This AAR although really has me looking at the value of OOB changes vs HQBU ..The change for 2nd Pz group for example to game long for a 14 point investment.. a HQBU gets a blast for 2 turns ...



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (8/31/2017 4:58:20 PM)

Righto, the game vs sil01 is on a short break due to holidays. In the meantime I started a game vs FeliceAndrea45, also a fairly new WITE player like myself. He agreed to me sharing some screenies and comments in this 'AAR'. As it's an experiment the AAR might as well cover several games as comparison. Not a campaign game but the Barbarossa scenario, but for the purposes of the experiment it doesn't matter. Felix might even provide his side of the story. We reached T6 last night.

General observation: both sil01's and Felix's Soviets are defending forward and in doing so are trading troops for space & time. Not too unsuccessfully I might add, progress is slow but also at a massive cost. IMHO such losses are not sustainable, but perhaps it's feasible in a scenario setting with respect to getting the VPs. If Felix can hold on to Moscow and Rostov I'd say. Such forward defence of course plays right in the hands of my Germans not being allowed to use HQ BU. It'll be interesting to see how it would go against a 'Sir Robin' defence.



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (8/31/2017 5:10:35 PM)

OK, let's start in the North. Sitrep at end of my Axis T6. Railroad conversion progress also in the screenie. T1-3 to get near Pskov with several minor pockets north of the Dvina. I really have to learn how to properly secure pockets as Felix kept opening them. Upside of course being that it needed units from outside the pocket which subsequently then were added to the pocket. T4 the railhead was close enough for my PzG4 to have enough fuel to breakthrough and surround Pskov (10-15 divs), naturally with infantry making the most of the hole first, lead by Model's 6 crack divisions (yes, consciously going into -4 CP deficit with Model to have 2 stacks of 3 divs if need be for the toughest assaults).

Now in T6 broke through the Luga line but couldn't quite create a pocket SW of Leningrad, no matter, they can't go far.


[image]local://upfiles/57515/950A38B5654C4531B3FE34E0D4A2FE89.jpg[/image]



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (8/31/2017 5:23:21 PM)

Then Heeresgruppe Mitte. Strong resistance from VL to Vitebsk across the landbridge and along the Dnepr. I managed to crack it open in T5 between VL and Vitebsk, which resulted in the Soviets wisely retreating about 80 miles. Now in T6 I cracked that new line and achieving a loose pocket that I'll probably need to secure properly next turn.

[image]local://upfiles/57515/7E405AAF4CCB4BC9BEBC725F0737DD94.jpg[/image]



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (8/31/2017 5:35:05 PM)

XIV Pz Corps has been standing there around Kiev out of fuel for 2-3 turns already. Now finally the infantry caught up to receive the defenders of Kiev as PoWs. The screen a bit to the east does it's job as I'm still too out of fuel to progress further there. South of Cherkassy the Red Army is still strongly defending the Dnepr, D-town and Z-town and following the lower Dnepr all the way to the Black Sea. I'll just have to be patient and keep peeling it back as my supply improves. Infantry was quite delayed due to huge pockets that were in the way and needed to be eliminated.

[image]local://upfiles/57515/C0BD3739A9D046868F41BFA8B48B7ECB.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (8/31/2017 5:37:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Psych0

Then Heeresgruppe Mitte. Strong resistance from VL to Vitebsk across the landbridge and along the Dnepr. I managed to crack it open in T5 between VL and Vitebsk, which resulted in the Soviets wisely retreating about 80 miles. Now in T6 I cracked that new line and achieving a loose pocket that I'll probably need to secure properly next turn.




In the last few photos the Soviet defense has no defense in depth :( Or maybe I'm just not seeing it from the German point of view of the Russian units rendering. Someone is going to learn the hard way....



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (8/31/2017 5:37:58 PM)

And the far south where you see the finally rapidly approaching railhead. But still quite far away, so patience is in order. Let's see if I can get to Stalino and Kharkov, I think it should be ok. Rostov will be too far I reckon.

[image]local://upfiles/57515/3961B38E990E4863B6C88680672B5F63.jpg[/image]



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (8/31/2017 5:42:37 PM)

Ground losses are considerable at just over 2m, so a rate of more than 300k per turn. It'll slow down now but still some 30-40 units caught in pockets so my aim is to not let it slow down enough.

[image]local://upfiles/57515/C612DEB8850A44BFA16260C55E55CCDC.jpg[/image]



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (8/31/2017 5:44:03 PM)

Air losses, nice but fairly normal it feels.

[image]local://upfiles/57515/DC464BEA0AF144C8A3CB6421DABE29B0.jpg[/image]



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (8/31/2017 5:45:42 PM)

Destroyed units at almost 300 matches with the 2m+ casualty count.

[image]local://upfiles/57515/3B9A0C6AD1DF4D5F913CBB4D91A2567A.jpg[/image]



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (8/31/2017 5:48:10 PM)

And OOB tells the same story... trading bodies for time & space. Will the bodies run out first or the time & space??

[image]local://upfiles/57515/AA61A903FF3E4144A7233ACF2EE81AF9.jpg[/image]



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (8/31/2017 5:49:45 PM)

As it's a scenario game, the VP count. Inconclusive still at this stage.

[image]local://upfiles/57515/446D70070773452980302A43C9CCC7F2.jpg[/image]



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (8/31/2017 5:56:21 PM)

And lastly, the CP deficits of German HQs. I kept spending AP on reducing this deficit. Mostly done now, for example AGN now has +1 CP only. And barely any Corps CP deficits, I corps is intentional as said. Army deficits I can still have a look at next turn.

Total deficit of -71 (of which more than half is at AGC and AGS) compares nicely with -113 at start. And the -71 includes a fair few regiments causing temporary CP deficits.

[image]local://upfiles/57515/9BB9A8142508477EB16713169D713CCC.jpg[/image]



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (8/31/2017 6:00:30 PM)

I won't be posting such an extensive report of this 'comparison' game every turn. I'll post an update if something interesting happens and then a full report just before mud. And Felix, feel free to chime in with some Bolshevik propaganda [;)]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (8/31/2017 7:57:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Psych0

And OOB tells the same story... trading bodies for time & space. Will the bodies run out first or the time & space??



The Soviets have a serious lack of units the early game. The more you make disappear the easier it is for you. At this point the Soviets are at the breaking point, if they haven't already crossed it, this early in the game.



galex -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (9/4/2017 2:38:51 AM)

I think this ARR proved again that defending heavily in west Ukraine is never a good idea.[:-]



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (9/4/2017 4:10:35 PM)

Anybody assigned 22nd Fallschirmjaeger to Model's crack I Corps? They have 95 basic morale but less artillery. So I'm staying with 6 normal 90+ morale divs for Model. But interested to hear your thoughts.



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (9/6/2017 5:26:45 PM)

Now a little about my approach to rail conversion. Playing without HQ BU one MUST do everything to optimize the speed of conversion. Couple screenies to follow, but in summary:
- Use 3 FBDs in the north and only 1 in the south (with support from the Rumanian FBD which only has 10 MP)
- Two rail lines to convert really in the north (1 to Leningrad & 1 to Moscow) so the 3rd FBD there ensures the max 4 hexes are converted (6 in Baltics)
- Clear the rail lines they need to convert 1 turn in advance

Here the first screenie for the north T1-3 to Riga and T1-5 to Drissa towards Smolensk...

[image]local://upfiles/57515/029F8C1FB28D444BBD2C82CFB3ECA824.jpg[/image]



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (9/6/2017 5:27:57 PM)

Next screenie for T4-11 towards Pskov and beyond...


[image]local://upfiles/57515/3EFC7C4CB6854F908AFE0EFDC49891C4.jpg[/image]



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (9/6/2017 5:29:24 PM)

That's the easy track, the middle T6 onwards is a little trickier and really needs 2 FBDs to maximize progress on 1 line or split to 2 lines to Moscow and to Tula...

[image]local://upfiles/57515/52143814D5324665B09A6F5F21F29EDF.jpg[/image]



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (9/6/2017 5:31:21 PM)

And the south for T2-9, assuming you activate Rumania as early as possible...

[image]local://upfiles/57515/B2271FDB866D4E74BFA6A643FAE81FB5.jpg[/image]



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (9/9/2017 5:08:43 AM)

I think there might actually be a bug here to execute this rail conversion in the south. I was of the understanding that the limit is 4 hexes as the crow flies. So, that's why I drew the line from Ungeny NW to Beltsy E, which is 4 hexes from Ungeny. Even 2 further hexes along the rail line would be eligible but not enough MPs to convert those across the Rum FBD and the 4th German FBD.

Note: Ungeny is converted by the Rumanian FBD on T2 while the 4th German FBD is railed in.

Then in T3 the Rumanian FBD converts Ungeny NW and Faleshty for 9MP (1 spare). And FBD1 (starting T3 in Ungeny NW) converts Faleshty NW, Beltsy and Beltsy E for 13MP (3 spare). BUT, to my surprise I was not allowed to convert Beltsy E. Anyone know why? Is this a bug somehow?



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (9/9/2017 5:16:56 AM)

Quick update on the game with FeliceAndrea45. We reached T11 and indeed his Red Army's forward defence was very costly:
- Total Red Army losses at 3.1m of which 2.5m captured
- 423 units destroyed
- OOB of 3.6m Germans vs 2.9m Soviets
- Leningrad fell T7-8
- Moscow engaged and September left to take it

So, like this HQBU are not needed but Felix learned a lot and I expect a potential next game against him to be MUCH tougher.

Screenies to follow...



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (9/9/2017 5:23:27 AM)

Leningrad fallen and Finns advancing to Cherepovets...

[image]local://upfiles/57515/0FC2637B5F634D0F8D138B0E290BE69B.jpg[/image]



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (9/9/2017 5:25:33 AM)

Inching around Moscow while waiting for the railhead to get closer (15-20 hexes away still)...

[image]local://upfiles/57515/9E0EC11CC00C426A93C5E9F31E0BF2BC.jpg[/image]



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (9/9/2017 5:27:17 AM)

Kharkov fallen and Stalino to follow soon. Railhead some 20 hexes away still as you can see...

[image]local://upfiles/57515/50C0217D6347408DB236BE9D9928F69D.jpg[/image]



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (9/9/2017 5:32:02 AM)

And the CP deficits of the German HQs completely minimized now...

- Total of 35 deficit on Army Groups
- Conscious 4 deficit on I Corps to have 2 stacks of 3 crack, assault divisions
- 2 temporary deficit for LVI Pz Corps / 4PzG due to Totenkopf SS Mot in regiments at the moment

[image]local://upfiles/57515/D51BB95091364DD88ACFC574CA17DF87.jpg[/image]



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (9/25/2017 2:37:54 PM)

Overview of the games I played thus far WITHOUT HQ BU against Soviet players (and my only games against humans):
1. mitch1495 - win in T3 (resigned - super Lvov/Vinnitsa pocket demoralized him)
2. feliceandrea45 - win in T13 (resigned - Moscow and Leningrad taken)
3. sil01 - ongoing from T3 (this AAR is originally about this game - resuming soon after extended holiday break)
4. drakken - win in T6 (resigned - or maybe continuing, hopefully)
5. xalinas_slith - ongoing from T2

I feel as ready as I can be at this stage for a somewhat more experienced Soviet player, who might hand me my behind but I'm willing...



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (9/25/2017 2:38:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Psych0

I think there might actually be a bug here to execute this rail conversion in the south. I was of the understanding that the limit is 4 hexes as the crow flies. So, that's why I drew the line from Ungeny NW to Beltsy E, which is 4 hexes from Ungeny. Even 2 further hexes along the rail line would be eligible but not enough MPs to convert those across the Rum FBD and the 4th German FBD.

Note: Ungeny is converted by the Rumanian FBD on T2 while the 4th German FBD is railed in.

Then in T3 the Rumanian FBD converts Ungeny NW and Faleshty for 9MP (1 spare). And FBD1 (starting T3 in Ungeny NW) converts Faleshty NW, Beltsy and Beltsy E for 13MP (3 spare). BUT, to my surprise I was not allowed to convert Beltsy E. Anyone know why? Is this a bug somehow?


Anyone any idea about this potential bug or shall I post it in the bug section?



Psych0 -> RE: The NO HQ BU experiment (sil01 welcome) (9/25/2017 3:06:13 PM)

Not much point posting any screenies from the Drakken game, just refer to his AAR. What I have to add is my plans.

North; In T6 I just fell short to be able to cut off the rail line to Leningrad, just no MP left. With BU this would have been very different. My panzers had 25-30MP at the start of the turn in Novgorod. Infantry 12-14MP. Model's crack corps of 6 high CV divs did a good job opening up the hole which Von Manstein's LVI PzC and Reinhardt's XXXXI PzC could then deepen along the Volkhov. Next turn should see them advance the final 2 hexes to Lake Ladoga. Just a question how many units Drakken wants to / can save I think. Railhead has reached 1 hex west of Pskov this turn so only 17 hexes from my most advanced panzer (8th). I wonder if a stronger eastern flank would have halted me in my tracks, but with what units? There's always some weaker point to find on a 15 hex front unless you strip Moscow?

Center; I was offered a front of about 25 hexes from NW of Rzhev to SE of Smolensk. In places 4 units deep and mostly behind rivers. I didn't quite know what to do with it. Too big to try to envelop. Too much of a carpet to cut a piece of or to punch through decisively. I chose for the latter in a much less decisive way. Direct road to Moscow hoping to split his front in half and forcing him to move and thus be fatigued and not much dug in. 2nd PzG got near Vyazma so partial success, at least makes him react. And most infantry is at the front now, as well as the 2 PzC loaned to AGS on T1 are now back in AGC and pulling their weight at the front. Railhead has passed Polotsk this turn (NW of Vitebsk)

To be continued with thoughts on South...



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