RE: Setting Minimum Requirements for AD's (Full Version)

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IslandInland -> RE: Setting Minimum Requirements for AD's (8/17/2017 8:53:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MemoryLeak

Hi XXXCorps

I have watched practically all of the videos, printed and read several times the Handbook. And constantly
try to plow through as much of the manual each day that I can without going insane from the unnecessary complicated
nature of it.

I am at the total confusion phase right now. I am on turn 7 of Husky(many play throughs) and still can't get the
option to build a damn depot. Of course, even if I could build a depot I have no idea why I would want to. or
move an airbase or put an HQ unit on a certain hex, or change a commander or ANYTHING.

I feel cheated because I am going to have to play this game on a reduced level of understanding
because no one can possibly comprehend all of the factors that effect every thing you do. And I hate that
because that means there are so many things happening that could have been done to change the outcome of
any given turn, but I just go merrily on my way oblivious to 311 pages in the manual of calculation, and rules, and if's
and percentages, and distances except when there is an eclipse or earthquake less than 55 hexes distance from a truck
on a mountain hex near a stream that is more than 200' across etc...that a Cray Computer couldn't figure out
let alone a human being.

There is a limit that Gary isn't aware of.


You don't need to figure it out. Or at least not right now and certainly not all at once.

I have owned the game for nearly three years and there are still parts of it that I don't fully understand. It doesn't bother me in the slightest and equally doesn't impact my enjoyment of the game.

When I bought it I played the Husky scenario without reading a single word of the manual. I just wanted to get a feel for the game and just teach myself how to move the ground units and how to conduct an attack through trial and error. Mostly error. [:)]

It was only after playing around with it for a few hours that I first looked at the manual. Even then I read it in bite-sized chunks and didn't try to learn it by rote. I copied and pasted useful passages from the manual into text files. Most of the time I was just playing the game and having fun with it. If there was something I didn't understand I might look it up in the manual. Sometimes I didn't and just ignored it.

The game is complex but you don't need to understand all of it immediately in order to play it. It can be played (and enjoyed) with a minimal understanding of many of the deeper mechanics.


If you automate the air war then you really just need to know how to move and attack with ground units and have a rudimentary grasp of the logistical side of the game. Build depots in ports and then more depots towards and near your frontline. Also repair the rail lines between your ports and the frontline. Add some support units to your divisions and really you are good to go.

All the other more complex stuff you can learn as and when you feel the need to at your own pace. The game will always be there but in the short term you just need to learn the basics.


To change a commander left click one of your HQ units. The unit detail box will appear on the bar at the right of the screen.

You can also left click on any of your units and then left click the name of the HQ they report to which will appear underneath the name of the unit in the unit detail box.





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IslandInland -> RE: Setting Minimum Requirements for AD's (8/17/2017 9:05:45 AM)

Once you have right clicked it you should see something like this.

The commander of the Afrika Panzer Corps is Gustav Fehn. To replace him left click his name.







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IslandInland -> RE: Setting Minimum Requirements for AD's (8/17/2017 9:10:12 AM)

Once you have clicked his name you will see this screen. Click Dismissal Cost. You will need to have enough Admin Points in order to change a commander. You can see your current number of AP at the top right of the screen.



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IslandInland -> RE: Setting Minimum Requirements for AD's (8/17/2017 9:20:36 AM)

Once you click Dismissal Cost you will be greeted with this screen. Here is where you actually select your new leader for the Afrika Panzer Korps.

1+16 means you will need 17 admin points in order to appoint that general.

I hope this helps. See Section 11 on Page 101 in the manual for more info on Leaders.



[image]local://upfiles/50613/C7B971F093EB46988F8B553F1B8425AD.jpg[/image]



HMSWarspite -> RE: Setting Minimum Requirements for AD's (8/17/2017 7:23:37 PM)

I would go further in advising on 4E bombers. Do NOT move them to Sicily until the army is finished and moved out. Likewise (when you get to it, France prior to really sorting the ports out, if then). They eat huge loads of supply and they will inevitably starve your troops (and themselves) until you have prodigious amounts of supply on hand and landing. Think twice about 2E bombers too (you can move them forward but have a reason to do it). I only put 2E on Sicily for baval patrol until the Germans have left. I will fill the island with FB because they use much less supply and haven't the range to attack the mainland otherwise...



MemoryLeak -> RE: Setting Minimum Requirements for AD's (8/17/2017 7:28:52 PM)

To Loki100 and XXXCorps,

Thanks to both of you for taking so much time with very easy to understand
information. I wish we lived in the same town because I know with hands on help
like you guys can give , I could much more easily grasp a lot of the
concepts of this game.

I copied the information in your posts and saved in it documents so I can refer back to it. I have already printed the
Handbook and lots of pages from the manual. And other posts also.

I will take your advice, take a step back, let the AI do the air war for awhile and try to
learn some logistics, command info and combat factors .

I will have to learn to live with the fact that there are a lot of things I should be doing, but don't even know what
they are.

Thanks again.



HMSWarspite -> RE: Setting Minimum Requirements for AD's (8/17/2017 7:42:03 PM)

Set yourself goals. Win Husky. Then win it one turn quicker. Learn how to isolate a port with NI (on purpose!)... It may seem boring but I bit off more than I could chew too early, and abandoning the 43 campaign at the end of '43 about 3 times because of poor early decisions is much worse. Husky is short and a good playground - I went back to it, and had fun learning...



MemoryLeak -> RE: Setting Minimum Requirements for AD's (8/17/2017 10:57:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

Set yourself goals. Win Husky. Then win it one turn quicker. Learn how to isolate a port with NI (on purpose!)... It may seem boring but I bit off more than I could chew too early, and abandoning the 43 campaign at the end of '43 about 3 times because of poor early decisions is much worse. Husky is short and a good playground - I went back to it, and had fun learning...

quote:

Then win it one turn quicker. Learn how to isolate a port with NI (on purpose!)...


I can't figure out what NI is???



Joel Billings -> RE: Setting Minimum Requirements for AD's (8/17/2017 11:40:26 PM)

Naval Interdiction.



MemoryLeak -> RE: Setting Minimum Requirements for AD's (8/17/2017 11:51:55 PM)

Thank you.

And I seem to be regressing.(or overloaded)

This is Breakout turn one . Do I want to do anything with Ground Attack North or Ground Attach South?
And if so what is it different than just the regular Ground Attack? I'm confusing myself on this.



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loki100 -> RE: Setting Minimum Requirements for AD's (8/18/2017 5:58:59 AM)

This tells the AI how to use any spare Strategic bombers in a ground attack role. In the scenario you get assets of the US 8 Air Force. Here you don't need to worry about the strategic airwar but you are telling the AI how to allocate these planes for tactical missions.

Since the same screen does its bit for both the scenarios and the campaigns there is some redundant information.

In this case, the 'south' references do not matter at all (refers to the Med etc). 'Night' will give orders to Bomber Command. You don't have this in game as the British were firm on the matter of planes for roles (or less generously Harris was a total prima donna who wouldn't release his strategic bombers even to help in an attack critical to the future of the War in the West).

So what you are saying is that you want the AI to give high priority to ground attack missions with 8 Air Force. You then tell it what to bomb.

Now your bombers are a mix of B-17s and B-24s. All these are 4 engined. To me this means they are at their best when hitting things that stay still. So interdiction (moving units), ferries (moving boats) and railway (moving trains) are really not their thing.

Given the scenario, wasted on airfield bombing (the Luftwaffe is not a problem and your numerous fighters will deal with any axis air effort). Unit is good, basically telling them to go and bomb known enemy locations (the historical mission at the start of Cobra). Ports - no point, you will cut axis sea supply easily enough. Railyard is worth thinking over. This reduces axis supply and movement capacity - as in the earlier discussion rail is the bedrock of the supply system. Bombing these reduces the total rail capacity of the Axis (ie they run out more quickly and find it harder to shift units and supply).

As its T1, and you want to get the front broken open, I'd take the default suggestion. For T2, maybe worth thinking about adding railyard to the list.



MemoryLeak -> RE: Setting Minimum Requirements for AD's (8/18/2017 3:19:13 PM)

Loki100,

Many thanks again.

It's too bad Matrixgames didn't hire you and HMSWarspite to write this game manual in a
language humans could understand.

I was examining the target results and couldn't figure out the column headings in the report. I finally found them
in the manual, but they made no sense at all. What I really need to know is how many
planes were destroyed.

Here is what the manual said:

DAM: The number of damage points inflicted on the aircraft in the flight.
Aircraft damage points are measured against the aircraft durability rating to determine
if the aircraft is destroyed or just damaged.
DAMD: The number of damage points the aircraft flight inflicted on the enemy aircraft flight.

What possible use is this gibberish to me?

Just give me the number of kills.



Joel Billings -> RE: Setting Minimum Requirements for AD's (8/18/2017 3:52:47 PM)

Number of kills is what is listed in the basic combat window display that comes up during a ground attack if you have combat detail set to at least 1. For the air phase, there are a number of ways to see this after the air phase without having to watch every air strike. One is to click on the Show Battle Sites and then go around and click on the battle sites to see the combat detail window with the losses shown at the top (BTW, you won't see many enemy air losses as there is little German air force in this scenario). The other way is to press C and go to the CR screen. Then go to the Battle tab, click on Air to see the air results, and then look at the losses in the list (you can sort by any of the columns, so you can see in what battle the most planes or men on the ground were lost).

The info you are describing from the manual, IIRC, is from some of the panels in the full combat details. You don't need to go that far down, and can just stay on the basic combat window display that shows the losses you are looking for for each battle.



MemoryLeak -> RE: Setting Minimum Requirements for AD's (8/18/2017 4:12:56 PM)

Hi,

I was on the target results screen, or something like that. It is the one that puts little circles on
every hex that was involved in combat during the turn. I clicked on one of the circles and a results table
was displayed. And it had all of that info that fries your brain. Since it is in the display, a normal person would have to
assume it is important, otherwise why include it?

So after a lot of searching in the manual I found the explanation and, as usual, was totally unhelpful. Whatever.

If I was doing it I would only include data that would further the playability of the game yet provide the
necessary statistics instead of artificially increasing the complexity of the game.

I'm referring to the columns DAM and DAMD. Make your case for that info being vital and how it is data
you can't do without to plan an air war.






[image]local://upfiles/1938/87FC4A69625F4B18BA515636AC771E43.jpg[/image]



IslandInland -> RE: Setting Minimum Requirements for AD's (8/18/2017 5:28:46 PM)

If the air war is "frying your brain" then just let the AI handle it. Click "Execute" on the Automatic Air Directive Creation screen at the start of your turn and then forget about it. Focus on the ground war and come to terms with that first.

The Commander's Report (CR) is a huge help in allowing the player to get an overview of all of their forces. You should acquaint yourself with that. Each column in the CR can be sorted and there are also filters at the bottom. The CR is a very powerful tool and vital when playing game.

I highly recommend you just learn the basics of the ground war for now. As I wrote in a previous post you can learn the rest of the game if and when you feel like it. It's perfectly possible to play the game and win without knowing all of the ins and outs. I would also suggest that you set the difficulty to Easy whilst you are learning the game.





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loki100 -> RE: Setting Minimum Requirements for AD's (8/18/2017 7:33:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MemoryLeak

Hi,

I was on the target results screen, or something like that. It is the one that puts little circles on
every hex that was involved in combat during the turn. I clicked on one of the circles and a results table
was displayed. And it had all of that info that fries your brain. Since it is in the display, a normal person would have to
assume it is important, otherwise why include it?

So after a lot of searching in the manual I found the explanation and, as usual, was totally unhelpful. Whatever.

If I was doing it I would only include data that would further the playability of the game yet provide the
necessary statistics instead of artificially increasing the complexity of the game.

I'm referring to the columns DAM and DAMD. Make your case for that info being vital and how it is data
you can't do without to plan an air war.



Does it matter .. well yes and no.

As you go into the campaign game - or the strat airwar scenarios, you can find this incredibly useful. One aspect of the night war between the Luftwaffe night fighters (NF) and Bomber Command is that at first sight nothing gets shot down. You can look at interceptions between the night fighters and the Lancasters and their escorts and nothing ..

Now if you play the Allies what you notice is the big bit of friction against a sustained bombing effort is low morale. You don't lose many planes in combat but ...

and ... damaged planes do 2 things. They are (realistically) more likely to crash elsewhere in the mission = operational losses. Also planes that get shot up lower squadron morale. So damage = lower morale.

So when does it matter, well if I am playing the Germans I want to know where my NFs did some damage so maybe I should concentrate there? As the Allies I want the same information - it tells me where the NFs are.

For No, well its not a screen I look at very often unless I feel things are wrong - too much sustained bombing or too little? It gives you valuable information for when you want to access it.

In this scenario - does it matter .. no. You have the Luftwaffe under the cosh and your battle report supports that. The P-47s escorting your bombers wrecked the enemy and the few Fws that made it back to base are damaged. As above, you'll not be seeing them in the skies for a few weeks. If you look at your 366 FB squadron I suspect you'll find it has more damaged planes and lower morale than the others? 367 might be in a bit of a mess too. esp compared to 358. Note that 358 won big and was at the highest altitude? Interesting? Something to bear in mind later on when you start managing all this stuff manually?

The combat screens are actually well designed. 95% of the time all you need is the top panel. Did I win? Is it unexpected? The remainder helps when the answer is no. What shot me up, why did I win when I only attacked to cause attrition? Different weapon systems in this game really do have different effects.

But crudely, you put 3-1 odds in your favour, using a good fighter and yes you got the result you deserved. Equally on land, hit a regiment with say 6 divisions and a load of artillery plus airpower and you'll win .. most times. Its the oddities where all this supplemental information can really help.



MemoryLeak -> RE: Setting Minimum Requirements for AD's (8/18/2017 11:08:25 PM)

Okay Okay I surrender...

It is information you can use. I doubt if I would ever be able to be that precise and analyze every hex.

Thanks , I will keep it in mind. But without you telling me what I am seeing I will never be able to use the data.
I just can't get that deep into anything. Main reason is I can't grasp so many interconnected relationships.

For instance I don't I understand the supply system and I never will. Look at the Handbook "one page guide #8"

Have you ever seen anything like it in your life? And supply is buried somewhere in there. I have not been able to find
anywhere in the manual the relationship between all of the numbers having to do with logistics. Received, shipped, stored
rail usage, I'd like to see just one number telling me if the unit is good to go if I was to move it to any given hex.
But that isn't enough in this game because if I move it I might be eating bread and water instead of spam the next turn.
See what I mean? I can't figure out if a unit is worth a damn or if I should build a depot on top of it...
or if I by moving it someplace or adding support units to it might be a good idea or a bad idea. ANd no matter how much I
automate things there is simply no way to understand enough about it to do an intelligent turn.


I switched back to OOB:WWII for awhile. I purchased the latest DLC: Burma. Now that is a supply system I like.

Hell, I have been playing the Strategic Command series from the very beginning. I have all of them up to SC3. And
I just play it without a clue how that supply system works.

I'm heading up to Oregon for a few days and I will take my gaming laptop with me. Give the remnants of my brain
a break from WiTW.



loki100 -> RE: Setting Minimum Requirements for AD's (8/19/2017 6:35:25 AM)

Have fun

but here's a terrible confession. I mostly play without the detail. If I am getting what I expect I don't look any deeper. Say there was an airbattle in June 1944 where the Luftwaffe really beat me? Well that I'd look at. The Commanders Report battle tab allows you to do this at a glance and a single sort.

Supply, some simple rules apply. And again I only dig when it goes wrong. When you are fighting near the landing sites, all things being equal supply is not too much of a constraint. The Mulberries plus other beachheads plus any ports you take will supply your army. You don't even need to bring over many planes - perhaps the shorter range single engined fighters.

Now as I push east, this happy state will start to end. Mainly its distance to rail head that will cause the problem. But increasingly you get into a situation where its not just delivery its capacity. You will have almost all your single engined planes and a growing number of the 2 engined planes in France etc.

So I guess I could sit down, calculate the supply demand of everything and the supply capacity of every port. Or, pragmatically, once I start to notice this (and it shows most obviously as lower combat value) stop sending fresh units to France. I might start to pull air units that are very low on morale (so likely to need a few turns of rest) back to the UK. I might even pull out a particularly battered combat formation so it can refit in the UK.

I'll then decide whether I can maintain the historical allied broad front or go for a more localised approach. If so, I'll identify say 3 corps and put these at #4 for supply. The rest to #2, perhaps units facing the Vosges to #1. Next turn will tell me if I now have a small but well supplied core. If not, reduce it to 2 corps at #4, if so, can I risk 4 corps at #4.

In several years of playing WiTW, I have never ever checked every air combat. Playing PBEM, I'll look at where they are when I get the turn back. That tells me where the Strategic Bombers and the German fighters tangled. I might look at one or two to see where the Allies bombed at day or night. This might tell me how/where to redeploy my defensive fighters or to avoid certain areas where there are a lot of fighters.

Here's another terrible confession. I got into this via War in the East. I spent a while opening it up and panicking and closing it. Played the Road to Minsk scenario and won - without understanding why. Played most of the short opening scenarios. After a while started to understand why I was winning or losing. Then started to try and work out why this was happening. At times I was deep in the manual and/or forum posts, at other stages I just concentrated on game play.



HMSWarspite -> RE: Setting Minimum Requirements for AD's (8/19/2017 2:57:27 PM)

Me too. I don't even look at the detail screen to try and hunt NF (as given above). I have looked when doing specific experiments in test and learning turns (for instance, should I bomb Airfields with big bombs or little bombs, and what is the optimum altitude). In game I set broad policies and stick to them. For instance, 8AF bombs from 25,000 on average but I randomly juggle it about by a few thousand feet. Then I just monitor active squads (due to morale) and if I am losing too many aircaft (in total) or morale is suffering, I would go up to say 28000 (with a few thousand feet variation).

Medium bombers bomb low flak targets under 15,000 and high flak at 18-20... again, on average is this working? I don't try to be more complex than that.

FBs don't get used for airfield attack (except in extremis) due to likely flak losses. And so on

Play the game as Chief of the Air Force, not Group commander or Force bombing leader.

Oh, and I haven't had your trouble with the manual - I leaned the game very well starting from there. Maybe 40 yrs of wargaming has given me a head start.



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