RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (Full Version)

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Stelteck -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/17/2018 12:39:29 PM)

It is funny how the normal, by default blizzard is now considered as "extreme blizzard" [:D].
Just a remark.



GamesaurusRex -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/17/2018 12:53:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

It is funny how the normal, by default blizzard is now considered as "extreme blizzard" [:D].
Just a remark.

Agreed... but then the same people that think that also think the Germans winning WITE should be normal. [:D]



morvael -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/17/2018 1:19:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex
+5 for the Russians and -5 for the Germans as a starting point


That is the easiest solution to implement, without touching other parts of the code.

Perhaps seeing how NM is the crucial element used to balance the game it has some merit, the difference between both sides NM at the extremes (1941/2 - 1944/5) should be slightly reduced.



GamesaurusRex -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/17/2018 1:23:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael


quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex
+5 for the Russians and -5 for the Germans as a starting point


That is the easiest solution to implement, without touching other parts of the code.

Perhaps seeing how NM is the crucial element used to balance the game it has some merit, the difference between both sides NM at the extremes (1941/2 - 1944/5) should be slightly reduced.


I'm thinking you are correct. (As usual... [&o][&o][&o] )



MarauderPL -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/17/2018 2:15:28 PM)

The game works best when it follows the historical flows of the war. When one side is doing dramatically better, the game has no tools to adjust to the current situation on the board (i.e. Soviets successful in 1941 and on the offense - no tools to repair rail, no effective mech units; Germans successful in 1943+ - artificial crumble in unit quality that are defending the Volga).

The game has also very limited tools to manage this tide flow of each game, with the exception of 1941, with very interesting mechanics of turn 1, blizzard, and some others (+1 att?). After March 1942 the playing field evens out, there are no scheduled scenarios/game changers that players need to take into account in the future. The only (effective) tool that the game has to nudge the players to the Battle of Berlin 1945 is the National Morale changes. For me it feels very forced and artificial, the best part of the game is the extended Barbarossa.

As much as I would like to get rid of the NM system and give control over the gameflow to something the players can manage (manpower/equipment availability? - a huge topic for another discussion), right now changing the NM could have a huge and unknown impact on the game.

Basing the game rules on subjective premises like "The Soviets should win everytiem cuz they won irl" or "The Germans should win everytiem cuz it was Hitler who dragged them down" (and many more) does not lead anywhere. The game is supposed to be fun and have about 50% winrates for either side. The history is a great inspiration for WITE, but sometimes is also its biggest burden.




thedoctorking -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/17/2018 4:18:18 PM)

Gamesaurus, we should play. I'm getting the impression that the Germans have too tough of a time of it in 1942 if the Soviets put up a good fight forward in 1941 and preserve their manpower production, at least under the current beta patch.

Maybe wait until the next patch comes out and see if there have been some modifications?



GamesaurusRex -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/17/2018 5:44:07 PM)

@ thedoctorking :

"Put up a good fight forward in 41 and preserve their manpower..." ??? [:D][:D][:D] You haven't played a Panzer Baller yet, have you...

One GC game with Wheat as Germans will teach you why that is wishful thinking. The only fighting you will be doing in 1941 are battles that cannot be avoided because you can't retreat fast enough.
The only other battles will be at certain places you have to sacrifice troops to delay German advance in order to buy time to evacuate your factories.

Other than that, you will be running for the Urals and Baku to buy time to convert to Corps and organize the Russian Army 2.0.
There simply is no "good fight forward in 41" for the Russians... unless by "good fight" you mean trying to maximize the length of time it takes for the Russian Army to die in a pocket.

As for "manpower production" ? ... Other than possibly the Crimea and the Caucasus, everything west of the Volga will be in German hands by mid-42. Until you get Corps level combat units in the field in high numbers, the Russian Army will not be doing anything on the field other than retreating or dying in pockets. There are no hex defense arrangements or combat unit combinations that can prevent the Panzer Ball from taking any hex it decides to seize, prior to stacked Russian Corps in fortified hexes. Attempting to defend positions with anything less than Corps is just a pocket waiting to happen. (and yes, I know you can get away with Divisions in the North, but there the terrain is defending you more than the troops and the Germans have no real incentive to go any further than the defensible terrain east of Leningrad around the Onega and Beloe Lake area anyway.)

[Edit: After I posted this, Wheat has just proven that under this latest patch, the Russians can't even hold a line in the dense North terrain without Corps level units. For all the talk about balance improvements, the latest patch has apparently made things even worse for the Russians. I guess I'm just going to have to give up and start playing only the German side.]




Stelteck -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/17/2018 7:31:55 PM)

Very few named elite player may be able to defend better with the soviet union, but for most soviet players even experimented i fear it will happen as the previous post describe.



thedoctorking -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/17/2018 7:46:28 PM)

The "panzer ballet" got a lot more difficult with the newest patch, and rightly so, I think. The German allocation of 50 AP per turn is about enough for one HQBU for one panzer corps. You aren't doing any for the first couple of turns, but you have some re-allocation of corps to different panzer armies and some really lousy corps commanders to replace. Turns 6-16, you can do about one per turn or lay up for a couple of turns and do three or four at a time, which is the preferred method, I think.

No game can reasonably claim to simulate the Soviet-German War of 1941-45 if the Russians have no choice but to sprint for the Urals in summer, 1941, surrendering Moscow and Leningrad without a fight.



morvael -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/17/2018 8:16:37 PM)

Thinking about this:


[image]local://upfiles/22250/0361A2188C5A4EB5B7BBFABD25AD8F10.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/17/2018 8:57:43 PM)

Nada



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/17/2018 9:01:48 PM)

Nada



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/17/2018 9:06:22 PM)

Coming out of the forum retirement to make this one post:
I am VERY sceptical about the proposed changes here.

I 100% agree that Panzers take to few losses in the early phase, but does this really matter in the great context of the game? The Soviets have some OP elements as well to counter this.

Re the NM changes: The balance shift of the proposed changes can't be overstated.
70mrl instead of 75 morale is -15%CV, while the +5 for the Soviets gives tehm aroun d 20% more CV (always assuming exp=morale).
And this is before taking losses/attrition etc. into account.

With 70NM panzers will have a NM of 80 and it will be very hard to get to >85 so they pay 1MP less to enter an enemy hexagon. Many panzers therefore will pay 50% more MP to move over clear hexagons. Getting infantry to >80mrl for reduced cost is already difficult (thats fine), but will get impossible with this change. This alone is huge.

This is not shooting at a sparrows (panzers taking too few losses, while balance measured in "when will Soviets enter berlin" is somewhat ok) with cannons, its like bombing them with a nuke. Unless you also plan allot of other changes as well, that would be a game I would neither play as Axis nor as Soviets. Needless to say, all balance done so far will be naught.

Yes, late war German NM declines slower, but Soviet rises quicker as well so I guess even late war Soviets will benefit, especially from reduced costs to enter enemy hexagons.

Only you morvael know the inner workings of the game, but is there no way to fix the problem in a localised way by increasing overall combat losses for Axis&Soviets, so there is some space for finer granulation in losses at the very high morale levels?
Another idea would be to add extra retreat attrition to German units with low ammo/fuel levels or when attacked with great superiority in numbers in 1941/early 1942 ONLY with the goal to raise the losses to strung out divisions by, say, 50% (exact numbers to be discussed), similiar to the combat events? Well supplied units would still be quite safe which is very fine for 1941 imo. Maybe others have an idea how to fix this with a minor change too.

I hope the lines above do not sound too blatant, as always thanks for your continued support of course which is highly appreciated.

To summarise, I think that the answer to a local and minor issue should be a small change as well.




morvael -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/17/2018 9:18:32 PM)

Usually the stronger attacking side has morale above NM and the weaker defending side has morale below NM. Also remember that starting morale would not be changed so many German units would retain their higher morale until exhausted by bad supply, losses and counterattacks.

Possible less brutal approach is to start with German NM at 75 in June 1941 with immediate decline by 1 point per month to 70 in December.

And new table has Germany stronger starting with 1943. Soviets only get a bonus in 1945, which could be taken away though (assuming they peaked their abilities in 1944).



Sammy5IsAlive -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/17/2018 9:38:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Thinking about this:


[image]local://upfiles/22250/0361A2188C5A4EB5B7BBFABD25AD8F10.jpg[/image]


My gut feeling is that the proposed NM changes would create a more 'hard fought' campaign with less retreats away from contact in 41-43 and you'd see more games between evenly matched opponents end early during this period. You might need to change the 1945 VCs though as in the event of a 'drawn' 41-43 period I think the Soviets might struggle to get to Berlin with those NM settings.

With regards to the more specific issue with the Panzers at the moment it feels like in the early game fuel alone is the limiting factor on where they can go. So one possibility would be to allow the Panzers to get more fuel/mobility and perhaps go back to the previous HQBU points costs but at the same time significantly increase their retreat losses and the fatigue/attrition they take from going through enemy hexes. The 'sweet spot' is one where the Panzer units have the fuel to continue attacking and form pockets but only at the risk of getting worn down very quickly if it is misjudged. Similarly the Russian player would lose too much ground if they simply run away but would have more chance of causing significant damage if they stand and fight and judge it correctly.



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/17/2018 9:42:23 PM)

I have not all numbers in my head but IIRC at least a third, more like 50% of all german mot units start below 86 morale in 1941. So the effect of the change on panzer movement will be huge.

Even if the starting values are not altered, the morale growth of German units will be stopped earlier (many inf divs start at 70 and grow to some 78-79 unlkess you are lucky, now they will get to 73-74) and defeats will hurt even more.
The suggested changes are like reducing the Axis OOB by a few 100k men and increasing the Soviet OOB by a few 100k up to a million depending on the time if you calculate the effect different morale will have on CV late term and calculate the OOB changes that would have the same effect CV wise.

After blizzard 1941 all soviet units have NM or greater if done correctly.

According to your new table, Soviets get to 50 much earlier (early 1942) and the trend continues late war.
at 1943-03-02 they are at 55 instead at 50 for example.




EwaldvonKleist -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/17/2018 9:45:45 PM)

quote:

period I think the Soviets might struggle to get to Berlin with those NM settings.

I believe exactly the opposite will be true.



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/17/2018 9:47:35 PM)

The thing might got lost a bit in my first post: Is there a possibility to work on the combat engine directly if the problem is situated there?



thedoctorking -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/18/2018 4:22:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

The "panzer ballet" got a lot more difficult with the newest patch, and rightly so, I think. The German allocation of 50 AP per turn is about enough for one HQBU for one panzer corps. You aren't doing any for the first couple of turns, but you have some re-allocation of corps to different panzer armies and some really lousy corps commanders to replace. Turns 6-16, you can do about one per turn or lay up for a couple of turns and do three or four at a time, which is the preferred method, I think.



These are VERY good points in the current patch that thedoctorking makes.


My point was that you can fight forward now as the Soviets. And if you do, you will preserve your manpower centers and therefore your army will be nearly at full strength in the spring of 1942. And it is damn difficult to break your front.

Soviets are getting something like 170k a turn in June 1942 if they play their cards right.



morvael -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/18/2018 5:48:10 AM)

This game is not forgiving if player skill levels are mismatched.



chaos45 -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/18/2018 6:33:40 AM)

IDK where this magical 170k soviet replacements per month in 1942 comes from......The Average against a German player that does anywhere near historical/normal in WiTE should have the soviet player around 100k replacements per week in 1942.

If the Soviet player was getting 170k per week in 1942 the game would be alot easier for the soviets to win lol.....and if the German player failed so bad in 1941 that the soviet player was somehow generating 170k per week in 1942 its game over for the Germans for almost a certainty.

Its what makes 1942 hard as the Soviets as your factories are just getting back to 100% operation from the 1941 moves, and your only getting around 100k replacements while a good german player can chew up around that many a week esp when you consider how high soviet attrition losses are due to low morale/exp in 1942.



Stelteck -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/18/2018 7:30:14 AM)

I have the impression that all these initial values of national morale have already been tested. Some time ago soviet was already at 45 or 50. It was reduced to 40, then now we are in increase trend.

It is a neverending loop.

Personally, i would try something different. I would not change national morale, but :

- Greatly increase the initial morale and experience of on map soviet troops in june 1941. (Probably something like +10). The initial soviet troops were professional and trained soldiers. There is no reason for them to be so bad. Of course a large part of them will be captured in initial encirclement, but it will help.
- Increase the damage done during battle phase by well supplied artillery and mortars of enough caliber. Increase the damage done during battle phase by anti tanks guns. For All side. It will be a boost for support units currently not so usefull.
- Increase logistic/fatigue attrition for tanks and heavy equipment, relative to reliability for all side. (German will be affected more as their tanks are usually less reliable).
- Allow a part of "surrendered" soldiers in pocket to go into hiding and return as disabled.
- Allow rocket trucks support units to be added to soviet corps. Currently they are considered as artillery and not allowed.

These sorts of things.



SpeedKat -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/18/2018 7:50:54 AM)

Well the German Army had more tanks in Summer of 42 than it did in 41 and more manpower in the field in the summer of 42 than it did in 41. The concept that the Germany army bled out all its equipment and manpower during Barbarossa is a myth.



morvael -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/18/2018 8:37:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck
- Greatly increase the initial morale and experience of on map soviet troops in june 1941. (Probably something like +10). The initial soviet troops were professional and trained soldiers. There is no reason for them to be so bad. Of course a large part of them will be captured in initial encirclement, but it will help.
- Increase the damage done during battle phase by well supplied artillery and mortars of enough caliber. Increase the damage done during battle phase by anti tanks guns. For All side. It will be a boost for support units currently not so usefull.
- Increase logistic/fatigue attrition for tanks and heavy equipment, relative to reliability for all side. (German will be affected more as their tanks are usually less reliable).
- Allow a part of "surrendered" soldiers in pocket to go into hiding and return as disabled.
- Allow rocket trucks support units to be added to soviet corps. Currently they are considered as artillery and not allowed.


1. Their performance do not support this thesis. They were professional and trained soldiers on paper only IMHO. At least those that came after them were full of zeal and motivation. Also, it's no use to set their morale in scenario file, as it is randomized by the game at start and this routine was never changed by me, so the values come from original developers.
2. Yes, there is the option to stop the German offensive not by reducing morale and access to fuel by but gutting their army. But altering the combat system requires even more care than altering morale or logistics system. It's a minefield of unintended consequences.
3. Some German designs were less reliable, some were simply not hardy enough for fighting conditions in the USSR, they lacked spare parts due to logistics constrains BUT their service was top notch (qualified mechanics, proper organization) whereas Soviet system was very poor (actually not existent in the first weeks). IMHO Germans did return more tanks to service than Soviets, who prefered to get new tank from the factory. Every operational pause should let the Germans rebuild their tank inventory (which happened IRL, like growing back from 20 tanks to 100 purely from repairs).
4. Disabled are of little use, the return rate is too low. It would be better to get delayed transfer of ready men, but we only have a maximum 1 turn delay which is not enough.
5. Would it be good to allow artillery attachments to Soviet Corps units? As I see it historically it's OK but technically may not change much seeing how the Soviets easily saturate 40 unit limit in battle during later years of the war.



Stelteck -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/18/2018 11:28:59 AM)

WITE have a very interesting combat system, but the more you play the game, the more you discover that this combat system have little importance relative to pure CV calculation.

I would really love to see the combat system be more important for battle results. It would increase the interest of large part of game (such as support units, element productions, etc....) that are currently somewhat cosmetic.

But i understand that it is quite tricky to modify.

Relative to my last remark to soviet rocket trucks, there is a specific problem with this piece of equipment. The soviet have a huge production, but nearly zero TOE that use them.




morvael -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/18/2018 12:38:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpeedKat

Well the German Army had more tanks in Summer of 42 than it did in 41 and more manpower in the field in the summer of 42 than it did in 41. The concept that the Germany army bled out all its equipment and manpower during Barbarossa is a myth.


They did in 41 because of politics (spare engines for tanks for example, or new tanks in general, or what was ordered to be produced while Barbarossa was underway) or logistical constrains (fuel and ammo had priority over food and replacements) or actual physical constrains (not enough men in the replacement army).
Also, fast moving units tended to leave men and equipment (wounded, lost, delayed, damaged) along their trail, and these became unavailable for the "final push", unless there was time to rest and refit and wait for stragglers to rejoin.
That's one of the reasons the Germans ran out of steam at the crucial points.
This is not simulated well in WitE, temporary strength loss is too small, and everything is balanced around permanent strength losses (lower than temporary but final). So it's easier to push, push, and push without end.



morvael -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/18/2018 12:44:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

WITE have a very interesting combat system, but the more you play the game, the more you discover that this combat system have little importance relative to pure CV calculation.

Relative to my last remark to soviet rocket trucks, there is a specific problem with this piece of equipment. The soviet have a huge production, but nearly zero TOE that use them.




Yes, the combat system is just producing some losses, and then the CV rolls (morale, experience, leader skill) decide who will win.

What about on-map rocket artillery units? Why not build support rocket units in the early war as well? I did.



elloboloco -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/18/2018 4:46:16 PM)

If you want to balance the game why not stop the gamey and a-historical use of 2nd panzer army units in the south to create a pocket all the way to the Romanian border. Read any accounts of the fighting on Army Group South's front and it is full of the fierce fighting in this sector. It took the Germans a few days just to break through the frontier defenses. The battle of Brody (look it up) held up the German advance from June 26th to June 30th. Many historians consider this the largest tank battle of the war. In addition, German battle reports speak of early summer rain's turning the roads into quagmires. My point is, the game would be much more balanced if the Russians were able to save some of the units that are just written off on the first German move before the Soviet has a chance to do anything. While large battles of encirclement happened in the center, the first in the South did not happen until 15 July to 8 August at the battle of Uman. Where the 6th and 12th armies were captured anyhow. Sorry about rambling on. It has always bothered me that the Germans are able to make that move.



Crackaces -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/18/2018 6:11:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: elloboloco

If you want to balance the game why not stop the gamey and a-historical use of 2nd panzer army units in the south to create a pocket all the way to the Romanian border. Read any accounts of the fighting on Army Group South's front and it is full of the fierce fighting in this sector. It took the Germans a few days just to break through the frontier defenses. The battle of Brody (look it up) held up the German advance from June 26th to June 30th. Many historians consider this the largest tank battle of the war. In addition, German battle reports speak of early summer rain's turning the roads into quagmires. My point is, the game would be much more balanced if the Russians were able to save some of the units that are just written off on the first German move before the Soviet has a chance to do anything. While large battles of encirclement happened in the center, the first in the South did not happen until 15 July to 8 August at the battle of Uman. Where the 6th and 12th armies were captured anyhow. Sorry about rambling on. It has always bothered me that the Germans are able to make that move.


I have commented many times in threads about the battle of Brody, and it is impossible at this point to duplicate these results. The battle engine matches up a device at a range (that decreases) with a random opposing device and the combat resolved. If you want to watch this in action set message level to 7. The Battle of Brody would be Soviet squads and devices matching up against German armor most exclusively leaving behind 100 damaged AFV's. I do not know how difficult the changes would be for Soviet anti-tank SU's and on a die roll Soviet devices to match up on armor rather than a random device. You would see a change in battle results.
One problem with any game is a constant insistance on "Historcally replication" vs. "I want to see what is possible -- could the German's have won?" I might propose this only leads to dissatisfaction. Choose your opponents wisely.

I would propose that WITE 1.0 is the most briallant representation of WWII German vs.Soviet at an operational level yet to be designed and published. Although maybe not perfect, the fundamental concepts of combat during the movement phase combined with "loose" ZOC reproduces the huge encirclements of the era. Having played all the "monster" WWII games -- this is the best IMHO.
My hat off to the Matrix development team! I can say that WITE consumes all my free time these days. No other game I have I engaged in has taken this long to advance from novice to beginner and keep my interest for so long. All for less than $100 bucks -- dinner and a scotch [8D]



SparkleyTits -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/18/2018 6:14:07 PM)

Well if I may I would say that isn't an issue of balance and more a design choice on allowing players to have more creative control over their forces as that kind of thing works the same for both sides

Later into the game Soviets can pour every single available mobile & armour element they have into one point which was never done by the USSR, that can & does create havoc for Axis too but it's up to the players to adapt to those kind of choices in a game like this while the mechanics under the hood are where the balancing should/would/could/does occur



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