RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN

RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (Full Version)

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SparkleyTits -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 11:12:50 AM)
Regiments definitely make Axis winter much easier than it should be and have many more benefits beyond that so definitely hope this one gets sorted I feel the problem with balancing though is that different level of players clearly have different issues on how the game is played and the problems resulting from that balancing for everybody is all but impossible I imagine Me and Telemecus had a chat about that same problem and he had the brilliant idea of interchangeable options akin to +1, mild blizzard etc With the morale changes you are thinking about I personally think it would be a great start off change for most of the players on the forum but would it at all be possible to put all of these options into selective ones like mild blizz and +1 etc? If you could build up the options with that people could find what makes them comfortable and suits their playstyle and level

Telemecus -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 11:39:32 AM)
Just to carry on from what ST said I honestly find it quite difficult to disentangle some objective assessment of the balance of the game from the balance of skill levels who those who play it. Players who play both sides often against the same opponent either way might be the only ones to get close to an objective assessment and I have to rely on what they say here. Also the balance is very dependant on the "meta." If I am right that the right "meta" for the Soviet air force is that it should be deployed in the rear to defend its industry in 1941, not to support its army, then the Soviet airforce could no longer be considered overpowered for instance. Would that be because the objective balance has changed, or because one player was good enough to spot an opportunity and so represents who plays it? Perhaps it is not only difficult to have an objective measure of game balance, but one conceptually could never really exist? It may also be that the objective balance is not independent of skill levels even when they are matched. Two noobs playing will have the balance more in favour of the Soviet side and two experienced players I guess more on the Axis side. A lot of the forums discussion here is about experienced players. Overall for most players, who are new, the game is still very unforgiving on Axis players. I am struck though how little discussion there is on the other options. The "normal", "challenging" and so on options can be used in a person versus person game too - and make a difference to combat results. I assume putting the game option to challenging would help the defending side - Soviets in 1941? The changes in supply can easily be reversed or increased with the logistics level setting. And so on. So why, given all the discussion about supply and fortification changes and so on with each version, do players simply not make those changes as part of their game options instead? I know the choices are more varied and not as discrete as +1bonus or not and mild/normal blizzard. But I would have thought some standards would have emerged. For instance would a balanced game for newbies have logistics on 120% as standard but for experienced Axis players 80%? HLYA's earlier challenge in fact is precisely an example of this. But rather than going to very complicated house rules for on map action, why not just use the options we already have?

thedoctorking -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 2:44:36 PM)
I had no idea that those balancing options worked other than with the AI. Can you fill us in on the effect of the various options? This might well be a good balancing mechanism.

Telemecus -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 2:52:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thedoctorking I had no idea that those balancing options worked other than with the AI. Can you fill us in on the effect of the various options? This might well be a good balancing mechanism. Well I suppose the thing to remember is even in a game against the other person the AI is still very much a participant. So for example during your turn the AI does decide whether to intercept or not and is only guided by the air doctrine of the other player. This is an inevitable feature of WeGoYouGo games. I did play a game with another on harder settings - and just felt I needed more units to get a successful attack. So I assume, without testing, that harder settings helps the defender while you are attacking. The logistics, admin, production settings etc are more straightforwardly mathematical. Whoever gets 80% on the admin setting for example will only have 40 points every turn.

GamesaurusRex -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 7:53:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits That statement might be just a tad lopsided buddy [:D] My take on the whole balance debate is that if you look at the trend from AAR's of which player wins as which nation the pattern is that comparatively the more experienced a player the higher chance of them winning as either team How many of the AAR accounts reflect games where the German player was the more skilled ? How many where the Russian was more skilled ? Under what patches ? Until you adjust for that, the AARs tells you nothing about win-loss ratios for the GC.

STEF78 -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 8:00:02 PM)
Not sure what will be modified with the next patch but changing morale rules has a huge impact on the game. Be careful... Personnaly, I find that the game is well balanced under 1.11.01

GamesaurusRex -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 8:03:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thedoctorking No morale losses for failed attacks might lead to more "soak-off" attacks. How about increasing the morale gain for successful attacks in 1941? They're so rare that you get a bigger payoff. Attacking already has a good payoff for the Soviets if you can isolate a German panzer spearhead. "Attacking already has a good payoff for the Soviets if you can isolate a German panzer spearhead." How do you propose to do that when your units can barely move one hex into the German controlled hexes due to low morale ? Wheat will have two or three controlled hexes protecting everything he has. You won't get near his troops.

GamesaurusRex -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 8:11:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thedoctorking Like I say, man, we need to play. Put the challenge up on the multiplayer server, I have a space on my dance card now that another German opponent has taken a look at his position in December 1941 and packed it in. Full blizzard, no Soviet attack bonus, random weather, better CV calculation, art and su +1 are my preferred options. It's not me you need to play as the Germans. I'm not practiced as the German. It is Wheat who can show you why resistance is futile...

thedoctorking -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 8:22:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex quote: ORIGINAL: thedoctorking No morale losses for failed attacks might lead to more "soak-off" attacks. How about increasing the morale gain for successful attacks in 1941? They're so rare that you get a bigger payoff. Attacking already has a good payoff for the Soviets if you can isolate a German panzer spearhead. "Attacking already has a good payoff for the Soviets if you can isolate a German panzer spearhead." How do you propose to do that when your units can barely move one hex into the German controlled hexes due to low morale ? Wheat will have two or three controlled hexes protecting everything he has. You won't get near his troops. Yeah, if you are cautious and methodical as the Germans, you can prevent the Russians cutting off your spearheads and breaking your pockets. Of course, you will have fewer pockets and your advance will not get as far. And the Soviets will be cranking out 150k +/- new soldierboys a turn. They sit back behind the lines getting experienced at 1-3 points a turn, and by the end of winter they will be at 45 EXP and ready to rock and roll.

GamesaurusRex -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 8:24:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thedoctorking quote: ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex quote: ORIGINAL: thedoctorking No morale losses for failed attacks might lead to more "soak-off" attacks. How about increasing the morale gain for successful attacks in 1941? They're so rare that you get a bigger payoff. Attacking already has a good payoff for the Soviets if you can isolate a German panzer spearhead. "Attacking already has a good payoff for the Soviets if you can isolate a German panzer spearhead." How do you propose to do that when your units can barely move one hex into the German controlled hexes due to low morale ? Wheat will have two or three controlled hexes protecting everything he has. You won't get near his troops. Yeah, if you are cautious and methodical as the Germans, you can prevent the Russians cutting off your spearheads and breaking your pockets. Of course, you will have fewer pockets and your advance will not get as far. And the Soviets will be cranking out 150k +/- new soldierboys a turn. They sit back behind the lines getting experienced at 1-3 points a turn, and by the end of winter they will be at 45 EXP and ready to rock and roll. LOL ! Yes... and those 45NM troops will melt like snowflakes in the blowtorch of the Panzer Ball... and Wheat WILL own Leningrad and Moscow before 42 and, if you're not careful, he'll bag huge chunks of the Russian army in the process. You will be able to retake Moscow in early 42, but Leningrad will be out of reach. He'll hide hide his Panzer's and Mechanized in Poland for the winter and chase you back to the Volga in 42. So much for a 1941-42 that looks anything like reality. I'd love to see any of you play Wheat. If you can beat his Panzer Ball, it would show me what you seem to think I've missed about the Russian potential. I'd love to see you do this without extreme blizzard and 1-1=2-1, since you all seem to think it is unnecessary. (The house limits we have routinely used is no Russian airdrops and he uses some limit on Russian beach landings.)

thedoctorking -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 8:51:58 PM)
All right, put me in touch with your friend. I'm seriously interested in playing. Your perception of how this game works is so different from mine, I think the only way we are going to resolve this argument is by trying it out. BTW, I tried to pull my armor off the front for refit against Sparkleytits in winter 41-42 and had to bring them back because he was bum-rushing my infantry across the front.

lowsugar -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 8:54:50 PM)
Gamesaurus, maybe you should try a game against someone else?

GamesaurusRex -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 9:07:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lowsugar Gamesaurus, maybe you should try a game against someone else? This is exactly why I am certain there is an issue. Wheat and I have played nearly every game simulation of the East Front that has existed since Game Design Workshop published Drang Nach Osten in 1973. He and I have routinely beat each other in games of this nature for years. WITE is the one exception. If this was simply a situation where he knew something about the game mechanics that I didn't, it could be fixed by me applying whatever it was... but I don't think that is the case. I think there is an issue here with balance at the standard settings. Certainly, the 41-42 period has major issues. In any case , I will be acquiring WITE 2.0 when it is out... this particular piece of history is too compelling to resist. [:)]

Telemecus -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 9:19:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex quote: ORIGINAL: lowsugar Gamesaurus, maybe you should try a game against someone else? Wheat and I have played nearly every game simulation of the East Front that has existed since Game Design Workshop published Drang Nach Osten in 1973. He and I have routinely beat each other in games of this nature for years. WITE is the one exception. If this was simply a situation where he knew something about the game mechanics that I didn't, it could be fixed by me applying whatever it was... It could be that playing each other mostly has not exposed you to other metas of playing the game that would break the winning streak? Knowing the mechanic would mean you could then make the fix?

GamesaurusRex -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 9:25:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thedoctorking All right, put me in touch with your friend. I'm seriously interested in playing. Your perception of how this game works is so different from mine, I think the only way we are going to resolve this argument is by trying it out. BTW, I tried to pull my armor off the front for refit against Sparkleytits in winter 41-42 and had to bring them back because he was bum-rushing my infantry across the front. When I did that in the patch before 1.11.0, (during extreme blizzard and with 1-1=2-1) although I gained a number of Guard units and must have done some damage to the German troops, I never saw any of his Panzers... and in spring of 42 I made the mistake of attempting to defend. Two major pockets later the Russian army was down to like 3.9 million and disappearing. At the standard settings in 41-42, the Panzer Ball is untouchable and cuts through the Russian lines like a hot knife through butter.

GamesaurusRex -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 9:38:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus quote: ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex quote: ORIGINAL: lowsugar Gamesaurus, maybe you should try a game against someone else? Wheat and I have played nearly every game simulation of the East Front that has existed since Game Design Workshop published Drang Nach Osten in 1973. He and I have routinely beat each other in games of this nature for years. WITE is the one exception. If this was simply a situation where he knew something about the game mechanics that I didn't, it could be fixed by me applying whatever it was... It could be that playing each other mostly has not exposed you to other metas of playing the game that would break the winning streak? Knowing the mechanic would mean you could then make the fix? What would be instructive would be for Wheat to play the "expert" Russian players here to test the validity of game impressions. If somebody here can thwart his methods, I would know there was something yet to learn. Me playing another "expert" German will only result in my getting trounced yet again and that would not provide me with a solution. If there is a Russian solution that can hold either Leningrad or Moskow in 1941, it has completely escaped me.

Stelteck -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 9:56:22 PM)
Before changing NM which have a huge impact on the game as steph said previously, maybe we should try to give all blizzard and attack bonus options to the soviet first. We can all agree that +1 attack bonus is not too strong for the soviet during summer. And that Full blizzard is ok for the german during winter. Some say there is a problem when we use both at the same time during winter. Never tested it but maybe true. Perhaps it is this we can try to modify. (Such as ending the soviet +1 attack bonus when the blizzard start instead of waiting for spring 1942). We can also try to balance combat looses, manpower and tank production, etc...

thedoctorking -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 10:02:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus quote: ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex quote: ORIGINAL: lowsugar Gamesaurus, maybe you should try a game against someone else? Wheat and I have played nearly every game simulation of the East Front that has existed since Game Design Workshop published Drang Nach Osten in 1973. He and I have routinely beat each other in games of this nature for years. WITE is the one exception. If this was simply a situation where he knew something about the game mechanics that I didn't, it could be fixed by me applying whatever it was... It could be that playing each other mostly has not exposed you to other metas of playing the game that would break the winning streak? Knowing the mechanic would mean you could then make the fix? What would be instructive would be for Wheat to play the "expert" Russian players here to test the validity of game impressions. If somebody here can thwart his methods, I would know there was something yet to learn. Me playing another "expert" German will only result in my getting trounced yet again and that would not provide me with a solution. If there is a Russian solution that can hold either Leningrad or Moskow in 1941, it has completely escaped me. I have a pretty high opinion of my skills, as you can see. I'm happy to play your friend. I loved DNO/Untenschnieden. We actually set up the whole GDW series, from Poland on, and played up to the first months of Barbarossa. Took about four years. I would totally pay a hundred bucks for a WitE/WitW combined game that starts in 1939. Or even better, 1936 with production options.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 10:47:16 PM)
Nada

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 10:52:09 PM)
Nada

GamesaurusRex -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 10:59:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thedoctorking quote: ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus quote: ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex quote: ORIGINAL: lowsugar Gamesaurus, maybe you should try a game against someone else? Wheat and I have played nearly every game simulation of the East Front that has existed since Game Design Workshop published Drang Nach Osten in 1973. He and I have routinely beat each other in games of this nature for years. WITE is the one exception. If this was simply a situation where he knew something about the game mechanics that I didn't, it could be fixed by me applying whatever it was... It could be that playing each other mostly has not exposed you to other metas of playing the game that would break the winning streak? Knowing the mechanic would mean you could then make the fix? What would be instructive would be for Wheat to play the "expert" Russian players here to test the validity of game impressions. If somebody here can thwart his methods, I would know there was something yet to learn. Me playing another "expert" German will only result in my getting trounced yet again and that would not provide me with a solution. If there is a Russian solution that can hold either Leningrad or Moskow in 1941, it has completely escaped me. I have a pretty high opinion of my skills, as you can see. I'm happy to play your friend. I loved DNO/Untenschnieden. We actually set up the whole GDW series, from Poland on, and played up to the first months of Barbarossa. Took about four years. I would totally pay a hundred bucks for a WitE/WitW combined game that starts in 1939. Or even better, 1936 with production options. [:D]Yes DNO / Unentschieden was a monster, wasn't it ? I still have my copy of them (hidden in the closet where it belongs![sm=00000289.gif], thank Grigsby for a computerized version.) A combined European Theater game would be interesting, or even German production options in WITE 2.0. Anyway I'm going to point out this thread to Wheat and see if he takes the bait. He's very busy and normally we only play within our "Old Guard" circle, but maybe he could find the time to do it. It would definitely be instructive for me.

SparkleyTits -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 11:13:46 PM)
I do find that if players only play Soviets there are a lot of disadvantages that come with that I do think playing both sides has a lot of advantages but I would say it is more important for Soviet main players especially to play Axis atleast a little bit otherwise there are a lot of nuances that are missed and sometimes it can be detrimental to understand and properly defend from the the capabilities of a capable Axis player I would advise all players try a little of both teams at least a little so they can understand the advantages and disadvantages of both and adapt accordingly otherwise from my very humble opinion there is a hefty part of the game you will struggle to understand properly even with a lot of losses under the belt to try and compensate for the lack of experience with both sides capabilities

SparkleyTits -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/20/2018 11:16:30 PM)
I would also love to see Doctorking vs Wheat game Doctorking is a progressively minded and competent player and I would happily bet that he would give any old guard player at least a very good run for their money or better

tyronec -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/21/2018 7:21:38 AM)
quote: When I did that in the patch before 1.11.0, (during extreme blizzard and with 1-1=2-1) although I gained a number of Guard units and must have done some damage to the German troops, I never saw any of his Panzers... and in spring of 42 I made the mistake of attempting to defend. Two major pockets later the Russian army was down to like 3.9 million and disappearing. At the standard settings in 41-42, the Panzer Ball is untouchable and cuts through the Russian lines like a hot knife through butter. If you posted an AAR of your game it would be possible to assess how much validity what you write has. Without that just can't tell if you are making a lot of mistakes or if your opponent has a winning game plan. quote: Before changing NM which have a huge impact on the game as steph said previously, maybe we should try to give all blizzard and attack bonus options to the soviet first. We can all agree that +1 attack bonus is not too strong for the soviet during summer. And that Full blizzard is ok for the german during winter. Some say there is a problem when we use both at the same time during winter. Never tested it but maybe true. Perhaps it is this we can try to modify. (Such as ending the soviet +1 attack bonus when the blizzard start instead of waiting for spring 1942). We can also try to balance combat looses, manpower and tank production, etc... Great idea, ending the '+1' before the blizzard would be a definite help. Think it adds a lot of interest to the first summer to play with the '+1'; however IMO the '+1' during the blizzard is almost too strong even on 'mild blizzard'.

STEF78 -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/21/2018 8:25:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tyronec quote: Before changing NM which have a huge impact on the game as steph said previously, maybe we should try to give all blizzard and attack bonus options to the soviet first. We can all agree that +1 attack bonus is not too strong for the soviet during summer. And that Full blizzard is ok for the german during winter. Some say there is a problem when we use both at the same time during winter. Never tested it but maybe true. Perhaps it is this we can try to modify. (Such as ending the soviet +1 attack bonus when the blizzard start instead of waiting for spring 1942). We can also try to balance combat looses, manpower and tank production, etc... Great idea, ending the '+1' before the blizzard would be a definite help. Think it adds a lot of interest to the first summer to play with the '+1'; however IMO the '+1' during the blizzard is almost too strong even on 'mild blizzard'. I played full blizzard and +1 several times on both sides while mild blizzard wasn't yet set up - as german, against a good russian player, it's hell. Not because of the losses but as the morale of your inf units can easily fall below 65, it prevents an efficient offensive in march. - as russian, against an average german player, it's a cakewalk. I managed to trap up to 40 german units... I definitely prefer mild blizzard and +1. The game is far more intense.

VigaBrand -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/21/2018 9:19:32 AM)
For all the discussion about balancing, I think Stef78 is right. You could work with the settings. I actual had one game as soviet without +1 und mild winter and non-random weather. Reason was, we had different skill sets, so we play with rules where the axis side get some benefits. You actual had three options with give you eight different setups for balancing. With the right settings and the right players it is a lot of fun! And you could work with the alternate cv, which gives the artillery some cv. That could help, too. I read about some people with house rules. Example: No lvov pocket and than the soviets gets less rail transport. You could balance the current game with options and communication with your partner (don't call it opponent, this could destroy much).

morvael -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/21/2018 11:27:49 AM)
I think experimenting with giving artillery elements CV of 1 and support elements CV of 0 (opposite of default settings) not only makes great sense (gun crews are armed, support squads are not) but would help Soviets a lot (they have a lot of mortars and other guns while they are low on support).

Telemecus -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/21/2018 12:24:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VigaBrand You actual had three options with give you eight different setups for balancing. With the right settings and the right players it is a lot of fun! Plus several hundred logistics, admin, fortification and production settings for each side.

morvael -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/21/2018 12:33:55 PM)
Finally there is an option to make a custom scenario with morale adjustments (one per year per nation).

GamesaurusRex -> RE: Panzer Division = SUPER MAN (4/21/2018 3:47:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain Seems this has degenerated into an �epeen� match with wheat through a third person. Interesting development but it seems to have been set up from the beginning. So, you see the method in my madness... [sm=00000612.gif] I think Wheat's German approach is near perfect. If there is a Russian way to break it... I want to know what it is.

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