RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI

RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (Full Version)

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Itdepends -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/9/2017 6:13:50 AM)
Yorktowns detection limit would have been elevated as a result of the strikes she flew the previous day- best if you're unspotted when taking on enemy carriers (again so you can do unto them first).

Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/9/2017 8:43:00 AM)
Thanks everyone for your helpful tips and advice. It is all duly noted. As you can tell, I still have a lot to learn, but as I wrote earlier - I fight on!

Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/9/2017 8:52:45 AM)
So as we enter Day 03, what options do we have? CV Yorktown and CA Chester will attempt to escape SW towards Brisbane overnight. The CAs will stick around for now but will detach and form a Surface Combat TF once the damaged ships are out of range. CV Lexington will move further west so as to keep one enemy CV TF out of range while it takes on the other approaching Milne Bay. The Australian TF will go on a southerly course and then turn towards Port Moresby to intercept any enemy Transports heading there. The Oilers are well to the south. Sub ops will continue to concentrate on the 'bottlenecks' near Milne Bay, Rabaul and Tulagi. There's a handful of aircraft (and pilots) still aboard CV Yorktown. I am hoping that once docked these can be unloaded and transferred elsewhere as replacements. Meanwhile CV Lexington is crammed to capacity with refugee aircraft. Can I chuck any of these overboard? Can I disband Air Groups and add their aircraft and pilots as replacements to Lexie's inherent Air Groups? Since it now seems likely the enemy will succeed in landing near Port Moresby, we may need to get some more troops there. [image]local://upfiles/57059/E675670F102843D7BFA0C045F0BE61E9.jpg[/image]

Aurorus -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/9/2017 9:51:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bif1961 I have learned, in order not to have one of my separate CV TFs, not to over-react and end up in a different hex then anohter is to set their reaction at zero and have the faster CV TF follow the slower. Until I did that I would frequently have one commander of a CV TF react more than another, setting them to reaction 0 stopped that. I have been using multiple CVTFs in the same hex for years and over many games, and I have never had it happen to me. Others have reported that their CVTFs have become separated by reacting, including you, and I have no reason not to believe you, which is why I warn about the possibility. I never set a reaction range for my CVTFs, as I hate to give them any extra possibility of leaving command control. I make enough mistakes on my own, without commanders making additional mistakes for me by acting on their own initiative... lol.

BBfanboy -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/9/2017 1:44:52 PM)
I recommended this scenario since the carrier clashes are guaranteed, as opposed to the Aleutians scenario where the IJN carriers never engaged the USN CVE. A carrier battle is a real dance to get the best position for your own aircraft while the enemy is not yet aware of your position. Luck plays a part but knowing your strengths and vulnerabilities vis-à-vis his gives you the ability to estimate your best options. Any aircraft left on Yorktown can be flown off if damage is less than 50. Port Moresby can use the aircraft if it has a high enough level and air support. If Lex has more than five air units or fragments thereof, it will not be able to operate aircraft but you might be able to fly off some of those units to a land base. I guess Sydney in not available in this scenario? If it was, that would be the only shipyard large enough to dock Yorktown to repair the flood damage. As it is, Brisbane SY is not large enough to drydock her but if you put the ship in Pierside repair and the SY is empty it will contribute some of its points to repairing minor flotation and system damage. Good luck!

Bif1961 -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/10/2017 12:30:43 AM)
I would fly them to a nearby land base airflied and have them combine there, instead of cluttering your flight deck with Yorktown squadron fragments.

BillBrown -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/10/2017 4:20:39 AM)
My 2 cents. In this scenario the only thing that is important is to not lose Port Moseby as the Allies. What happens around Guadalcanal is unimportant. I move all three of the TFs( 2 CVTFs and the SCTF ) into one hec. I then have both of the CVTFs follow the SCTF and move to the West of Milne Bay. What you want to do is to get at least one strike on the invasion TF. If you can do that, there will not be enough force left for the Japanese to take PM.

Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/10/2017 8:34:20 AM)
Thanks again, guys All very useful insights. CV Lexington gets some attention today as you will see shortly.

Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/10/2017 9:14:10 AM)
May 06 - Day 03 As it happened:- Our Sub S-44 near the Milne Bay bottleneck identifies and attacks a small enemy Transport TF (2x xAK + minesweeper escorts only) but without success. The enemy escort is small and ineffective and the S-44 escapes unscathed. Then occurs the turning point for the day. The Commander of CV Lexington disregards orders which were to loop to the south before heading towards Port Moresby and flees in the face of the oncoming enemy CV. Thus the Australian Surface Combat TF which proceeds as planned is left with no LRCAP! As it happens we escape with less damage than we deserved. Our 15xWildcat CAP is effective when CV Lexington is attacked by 9xKates and 8xVals escorted by 6xZeros. Half the Kates and a couple of Vals are shot down but CV Lexington is hit by 5 bomblets that start fires which are soon extinguished. She heads for Noumea. Damage is minimal. Two pin-**** retaliatory raids are mounted with 6xDauntless apiece. Both raids are entirely ineffective and take 50% losses. Left to its fate, the Australian TF is pounded by two raids with Vals and Kates. The enemy, too wise by far, does not even provide an escort! In the event, only CL Hobart is hit, but the damage is quite severe. And, not surprisingly, 17xNells, land-based aircraft, attack Port Moresby. Damage is fairly light. Land-based aircraft on the Australian mainland are moved north in stages. It is hoped to mount an air campaign against any lodgement the enemy gain near Port Moresby. Worryingly, Japanese Recon aircraft are spotted along the Australian coast from Cooktown to Townsville. Time to lick our wounds and think again! [image]local://upfiles/57059/CF6ACECB2F1A459EBE984C5BB3FA1941.jpg[/image]

Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/10/2017 11:02:41 AM)
May 07 - Day 04 Today's plans; effectively it's 'Runaway!'. Well, not quite. Certainly, the Surface Combat TF cannot operate without air cover from Lexington so a move away to the SW is indicated. CV Lexington must use its damage as a ruse and feign withdrawal, lose her pursuers, then return to have another bite. Every sub we have will now concentrate on the Milne Bay bottleneck. It seems I can neither resupply nor reinforce Port Moresby with LCUs because I have zero Freighters along the whole of the Australian coast! We now have Warhawks operating from Port Moresby, and Mitchells from Townsville. The Wirraways may try their luck against the approaching Transports when CV Lexington returns to the scene. [image]local://upfiles/57059/C92ED5DCBAD2430C8EE7650EA373E205.jpg[/image]

Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/10/2017 11:40:02 AM)
May 07 - Day 04 A comparatively quiet day results. All our TF successfully disengage without further air assault and by day's end they have probably evaded detection also. But we no longer know for sure where they are either! The small enemy TF bombards Port Moresby overnight to little effect. During daylight hours Wirraways from Port Moresby make a brave but ineffective strike against the approaching enemy Transports. They experience 50% losses. There's no land-based air strike so our Warhawk CAP is untested. [image]local://upfiles/57059/442723002C074FB98B9BE9FBC65BD188.jpg[/image]

Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/10/2017 4:01:01 PM)
May 08 - Day 05 With CV Yorktown and CA Chester seemingly out of range of air attack, the heavy ships are detached to form a Surface Combat TF which will move towards Port Moresby by a westerly route covered where possible by coastal based fighters. The Australian TF will be ahead, well ahead and supported by fighters from Cooktown and Port Morseby, CL Hobart although damaged significantly has its damage under control and is still operable. It will stay and fight unless damaged further. All subs will concentrate around Port Moresby whose remaining Wirraways will try a final attack against the transports. [image]local://upfiles/57059/7E98FFFFAE204BF6B267B544838AC352.jpg[/image]

Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/10/2017 4:37:07 PM)
May 08 - Day 05 Eleven Vals make a night raid on Port Moresby. Damage is very limited and casualties low. Then the invasion begins. There's a brief ineffective bombardment (by a minesweeper!) and then troops are ferried ashore all day. Artillery fire from the shore causes some casualties but gains no hits on ships. The Wirraways and Warhawks make three strikes at the anchored transports but score no hits either, but neither are there any losses. Have the Japanese CVs retired already? No CAP? Maybe we have an opportunity? CV Lexington and our undamaged Cruisers head north along the Australian coast unmolested and seemingly undetected. Our defending force bombard the freshly landed enemy troops and hunker down to sit out tomorrow's expected attack. [image]local://upfiles/57059/A8E84B64A5B54D1696CA2C921C0F0924.jpg[/image]

BillBrown -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/10/2017 5:49:59 PM)
If they have started landing, then you probably have lost PM.

Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/10/2017 8:31:03 PM)
Hi Bill Brown. True, but after what happens next I've probably lost the War not just this operation!

Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/10/2017 9:20:48 PM)
May 09 - Day 06 Enemy troops continue to disembark at Port Moresby overnight and throughout the day. They take routine casualties from our counterbombardment but nothing that could deter them. However we get a lucky hit at 11k yards on xAKL Noshiro Maru which sets her on fire. Then our subs begin their attacks; S-38 attempts to finish off Noshiro Maru and strikes her with a torpedo which causes heavy damage and she burns from stem to stern; then having eluded the ASW search,she attacks again, hitting xAK Asakaze Maru and causing heavy damage. In the latter attack S-38 is damaged by depth charges. Our coastal batteries have found their range and hit another Transport, xAK Canberra Maru, at 9k yards. At least the disembarkation is meeting some resistance. Surely, all we need now is for CV Lexington to put in one good attack to be followed up by our Cruisers and we can still save the day? It is not to be. The Japanese CVs have not left the scene. They have evaded our land-based Naval Search aircraft, and those from CV Lexington and her Cruisers. The Japanese Carriers have, surprisingly, left the Transports without CAP, but they've gone hunting CV Lexington. She is discovered early in the morning, we send off an attack and await the inevitable enemy strike. Again it is almost overwhelming with 23xKates, 22xVals and 10xZeros opposed by 11xWildcats. Japanese losses are heavy, 14xaircraft to our 2xWildcats, but 30xaircraft remain to attack and damage the CV Lexington (torpedo hit), CA Minneapolis (bomb hit), and CA New Orleans (bomb and torpedo hit). The enemy CVs have held back the larger part of their Zeros as CAP and when our Dauntless and Devastators show up they're hit hard experiencing nearly 50% losses. We get no hits on the unidentified CV(s) or the escorts. The Wirraways again attack the Transports but cause no damage. Then the enemy CV(s) administer the coup de grace! An afternoon raid finds CV Lexington again and 18xKates, 18xVals and 10xZeros have no difficulty penetrating our CAP of 14xWildcats. The result is utter havoc; CV Lexington takes 3 bomb hits, then as she wallows, no fewer than 5 torpedo hits. She sinks rapidly. As she goes down the remaining strike aircraft pick out the damaged Cruisers and sink them too. CA Minneapolis is hit by 8 bombs, and New Orleans by 3 torpedoes. One fragment of good news; all our airborne aircraft are able to land at Townsville airfield. To compound a disastrous day, 16xNells escorted by 12xZeros attack Port Moresby itself. They're opposed by 12xWarhawks which give a good account of themselves, downing 6xNells and damaging all the others, at the cost of 3xWarhawks. There is minimal damage. Two more of our subs make unsuccessful attacks but escape any damage themselves. It seems the Port Moresby garrison will have to fight it out alone! [image]local://upfiles/57059/53F080DC17894A9B98996043D760796C.jpg[/image]

Bif1961 -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/11/2017 1:29:25 AM)
You have learned a valuable lesson, don't allow your carriers to operate in different hexes assign one CV TF, the slower to be followed by the faster, that should always keep them mutually supporting. Especially if you assign them 0 reaction so one doesn't go running off without the other.

Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/12/2017 7:11:03 AM)
I sure have learned (I hope!) several valuable lessons. Well, desperate times need desperate measures! May 10 - Day 07 Under a LRCAP provided by land-based fighters from Cooktown and Port Moresby, our two Surface Combat TFs will move directly to Port Moresby at full speed, smash up the Transports as they unload and bombard the enemy troops ashore! Well, that's how it was supposed to be, and it very nearly came off, EXCEPT the US TF got there first (these being the Cruisers which had earlier been CV Yorktown's escort) met the enemy TF and FLED! What? Why? I know the xAKs have deck guns but surely nothing Cruisers need fear? Our TF Commander avoided combat, and left Port Moresby without even a desultory bombardment. Later in the day the two TF meet again out at sea. It does seem that at least we have interrupted disembarkation. This time we make a half-hearted attempt at combat, and about 4 salvos are fired with no hits before we turn tail towards Milne Bay heading for Noumea! This out of range of their LRCAP and now I fear for them when located by the enemy carriers. The Australian TF arrives too late to intercept the Transports but does bombard the enemy beachhead, before retiring, again to the SE. (Both TF were supposed to return towards Cooktown and air cover!) The four Destroyer remnant of CV Lexington's TF make a mad high speed dash overnight directly towards the enemy CVs but fail to make contact because the enemy CVs (now identified as 3 in number!) are way down south attempting to invade Australia on their own! The CVs are last located in the vicinity of Bundaberg which experiences several air raids, one of which sinks our Tanker sheltering in harbour there. (This Hard AI knows too much! There's no CAP because my fighters have been moved up to Cooktown to defend the Cruisers!) Our land-based aircraft, including the few survivors from CV Lexington fail to find the enemy CVs or make an attack. Somehow sinking an enemy carrier is the only way we can possible even things up! Our subs make a couple of unsuccessful attacks against enemy Transports as they head SE, as do the final 3xWirraways from Port Moresby. The Japanese invaders then make a Shock Attack against Port Moresby, driving off our defenders with great loss. Port Moresby has fallen! The surviving infantry are now lost in the mountain jungles somewhere east of the base. They will head for Buna if possible. [image]local://upfiles/57059/4602E5B8F6E443FE9E36C6E6FD7A7B26.jpg[/image]

Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/12/2017 7:59:06 AM)
May 11 - Day 08 Here's the plan. With the Japanese CVs seemingly way down south and out of position do we have an opportunity to sink some of the , largely empty, Transports at last! [image]local://upfiles/57059/86B368E1651240169C1060C11C69AFDF.jpg[/image]

Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/12/2017 8:08:02 AM)
May 11 - Day 08 It's a day of missed opportunities. Time and time again our surface TF meet the retreating enemy transports and fail to engage. In fact they actually seek to evade! I really do not understand why? In all cases the ships have minimal damage at most and 70% plus of ammo remaining. It falls to just 4 Destroyers to make a token attack. They score some hits at no loss to themselves but the enemy Transports round the Milne Bay tip of the peninsula and escape! Even then there is a chance at revenge! The same Destroyers meet an enemy Oiler, all alone and entirely unescorted. One shell hit would probably have finished her off! And they EVADE! Why? This could be important because I suspect the Oiler is making a rendezvous with the enemy Carriers. We could try and follow her I suppose? In some ways this has been a greater disappointment than losing my CVs! The enemy CVs cease their attacks against the Australian mainland and head north, managing to make a couple of raids on our Destroyers subsequent to their brief battle with the Transports. The DDs escape unscathed. So, with our Surface TFs ravaged and low on fuel we'll just keep them out of the way of the enemy CVs as they retire north. (Well that's our earnest hope!). The final drum roll will be our flotilla of Subs which will attempt to intercept the enemy CVs on their home leg. [image]local://upfiles/57059/FA665D714A774BD09F6035546533B56B.jpg[/image]

BBfanboy -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/12/2017 2:30:25 PM)
Did your TFs attacking at PM have their threat tolerance set to "Absolute" and routing "Direct"? Declining combat like that usually happens when there is an air threat that the TF commander wants to get away from. The Bettys from Rabaul would do that. The aircraft do not need to be seen at the time, just that there is Intel that the enemy has aircraft nearby. Also check the leadership of the TF commander. You can't see his Naval and Aggression stats while at sea, but leadership is shown and often correlates with aggression. You can change the leader at sea by creating a new TF with the ship whose captain you want in charge, and then transferring that ship back into your existing TF.

BBfanboy -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/12/2017 2:36:47 PM)
I bet that tanker/AO at Bundaberg was still in a TF. Not good. Carriers always operate with Naval Search seeking target but the rarely do recon, so once it became clear the enemy could move south (i.e. when you lost Lexington), the AO should have disbanded in port where the crew could cover it with taro plants and palm trees.

Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/12/2017 5:22:23 PM)
Hi BBf Yes, all combat TF were operating under Direct routing and Absolute threat tolerance even the Subs. Once CV Lexington went down the air threat was such that without those settings TF would take bizarre circuitous routes just to reach an adjacent hex! The Oiler was alone and docked and not part of a TF. Its escorting DD was detached for combat duties. The other Oiler is still escorted and near Nouméa.

Bif1961 -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/12/2017 10:00:19 PM)
It would be interesting to see your ship commanders abilities and did you have their float planes set for searching some at day and night?

BBfanboy -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/12/2017 11:42:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Energisteron Hi BBf Yes, all combat TF were operating under Direct routing and Absolute threat tolerance even the Subs. Once CV Lexington went down the air threat was such that without those settings TF would take bizarre circuitous routes just to reach an adjacent hex! The Oiler was alone and docked and not part of a TF. Its escorting DD was detached for combat duties. The other Oiler is still escorted and near Nouméa. That is a mystery then- unless the ship captains and TF commander are all yellow-bellies!

tarkalak -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/13/2017 8:25:13 AM)
Hi Energisteron, Did you change the TF type to surface? Or it does that by itself if you move the carriers out. If the TF war Air Combat they will evade all surface engagements, I think.

BBfanboy -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/13/2017 4:49:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tarkalak Hi Energisteron, Did you change the TF type to surface? Or it does that by itself if you move the carriers out. If the TF war Air Combat they will evade all surface engagements, I think. You are correct about the ACTF evading, but if there are no carriers in a TF it does automatically switch to a SCTF.

Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/15/2017 10:20:55 AM)
Hi All Thanks for your comments. I must plead guilty to not checking / changing the surviving Cruisers to Surface Combat / Bombardment after CV Yorktown was put out of action. However, as you can see from post #42, the Surface ships had converted modality to Surface Combat (look at the symbol for the TF) and the detached CA and CV Yorktown are part of an Escort TF. Similarly when CV Lexington went down, only DDs were left and their symbol similarly changed to Surface Combat TF. I've checked the current settings and they are indeed in Surface Combat mode. They were put in Bombardment mode for the night run to Port Moresby, because if they missed the enemy Transport TF, I wanted them to hit the beachhead. So, a quick recap. The US SCTF (3xCA 2xDD) was set to bombard Port Morseby but I had expected it to meet and attack the enemy transports first. It DID meet them but did not engage (possibly intent on its bombardment mission?) but in daylight it met the Transports again and after the briefest possible engagement disengaged and headed SE (not towards Cooktown and air cover as planned). I believe this was because the escorting DDs were getting low on fuel for a return all the way to Noumea, so that's the way it went! Presumably, lack of DD fuel, not ammo, curtailed the attacking vigour of the Commander. The Australian SCTF (1xCA 1xCL(damaged) 1xDD) did not meet the enemy TF but DID bombard Port Moresby. It did what I asked, but I had it slated to return to Cooktown and air cover after this mission, and to refuel (a top-up), but in the event it headed SE into danger because it 'decided' to go to Noumea to refuel. The 4xDD (survivors of CV Lexington's TF) were still half-full of fuel, and had plenty of ammo, and had similarly been ordered to Cooktown. They briefly engaged the Transports and were doing fine, a couple of hits for none in return, but broke off, possibly because of the looming air threat approaching from the south. When they met the unescorted Oiler presumably they fled to avoid the air threat knowing they'd been detected. Indeed there were two air strikes against them before dusk but thankfully no damage done. So, after analysis, I am disappointed but I feel I can have no complaints. What happened was entirely feasible, just a bit wimpish! I suppose this is what happens when one's units have seen their best ships sunk, they're operating at the limits of their fuel, and the enemy has mastery of the skies above them. BTW - where is this air power ratio button? I sure can't find it!

BBfanboy -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/15/2017 11:31:29 AM)
I have never heard of an "air power ratio button". Where did you see the phrase? Or are you referring to advice about how many (by %) fighters to assign to cap vs how many to escort the strike?

Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (9/15/2017 12:28:30 PM)
Hi BBf No, I'm fairly sure I can select my intended ratios for air missions. That was a relatively easy concept. No, someone commented on my Aleutians thread that there was a hotkey to show air balance I think it was in each hex. Unfortunately, despite looking through, I can't find that remark. In a similar way, I have not yet located the hexside control display. I'd like to see that if possible.

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