RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (Full Version)

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BBfanboy -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/23/2017 10:13:33 PM)

I think overall experience is what helps get hits, not the Nav Search or Naval skill of the leader (unless you mean NavB or LowN skill).
After watching many combat animations, I noted that if pilots misidentified the target ship class during a bombing attack they almost always missed. Initially I thought that must be related to their NavS skill, since higher NavS results in better ID of the ships sighted, but later came to believe it is the increased overall Experience that pilots get when cross trained to reasonable (50+) levels in several skills.




Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/23/2017 10:29:44 PM)

Hi again, Aurorus.

Thanks again for the insight. All interesting stuff. One can only learn by experience!




Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/23/2017 10:36:43 PM)

Hi BBfanboy

You've gone a bit beyond me there but I get your drift. In this scenario, of course, there's no time to improve experience, but as you correctly pointed out earlier, there's certainly time to fatigue your pilots!

I'm not dissatisfied by the way the game calculated the outcome of the Carrier battle. I think the results were entirely realistic, very much so. If my first strike had got a couple of hits it could have turned out entirely different.




Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/23/2017 10:49:08 PM)

Day 5 - May 08

The US Carrier strikes:-

Shortly after our first strike was repulsed without result, our own Carriers were attacked by an overwhelming air flotilla of 43x Dauntless dive-bombers escorted by 16x Wildcats. Our CAP took its toll downing 6x Dauntless and damaging another 11 but could do nothing to prevent the bombers getting through and hitting both Carriers and CA Myoko. Incredibly both Carriers remained operational but only just.

In the afternoon a second strike of hardly any lesser size resulted in some minor additional damage to the Carriers. We lost no Zeros on CAP to air-to-air combat in either raid.

At dusk, both Carriers were in a bad way. CV Shokaku still has considerable numbers of aircraft aboard (x46) including refugee aircraft from CV Zuikaku which has just 1x Kate in what's left of its hangers. If CV Zuikaku survives it will be a miracle! CV Shokaku may just make it to Rabaul but is likely to be pursued by the Allied TF throughout tomorrow.

[EDIT - error in graphic - Wildcat sorties numbered 29 not 16!)

[image]local://upfiles/57059/DD48C38605664C9D97EA96319F981C0C.jpg[/image]




BBfanboy -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/24/2017 1:24:43 AM)

With 91 System damage and 60 fires, Zuikaku is doomed. Japanese damage control is just not up to miracles! You can save 10% of the VPs given to the enemy if you scuttle her - unless you want to use her as a bomb magnet to help save Shokaku! She may sink overnight anyway.




Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/24/2017 6:57:42 AM)

I would agree, BBf.

Thanks for the tip re saving 10% VP for scuttling. Something else that I'd missed. However, for the sake of 30-40 VP, I think we'll do our best to escape.

As for Zuikaku being a bomb magnet, I think that's inevitable if we try to get her away. Currently the friendly AI has detached both Carriers together into an Escort TF so Shokaku is shackled to Zuikaku's death knell speed of 6 knots. We will spit them so Shokaku at least has a chance!




Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/24/2017 7:38:44 AM)

Day 6 - May 09

Planning, or more accurately Emergency Planning!

I think the graphic says it all, but in brief:-

The two injured Carriers will separate and attempt to get to Rabaul with a little help with a land-based CAP of Zeros. The damaged Cruiser will dash for Truk. The intact Cruiser will take refuge in Lae. All subs will converge on enemy CVs.

We will make only a bombardment attack at Port Moresby which will be protected by CVL Shoho and attacked Nells from Rabaul.

[image]local://upfiles/57059/9C09FDA5D5B54B309520BBE6341B681A.jpg[/image]




Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/24/2017 8:35:44 AM)

Day 6 - May 09

The Outcome.

No need for a diagram today, since it turns out to be fairly quiet!

Unloading continues throughout the night at Port Moresby, and the defenders are still lobbing a handful of shells in our direction, but they really make them count! Approaching the beach for the first time, xAK Tatumiya Maru is hit twice (from 5 shots!) and set on fire but she remains operational for now. At dawn 16x Nells from Rabaul make a harassing air raid on the defenders with indeterminate results.

In daylight, unloading continues unabated, as does the fire from the shore. In an action bordering on folly, the already badly damaged, and several times extinguished xAK Kansai Maru is hit once more, and this time the damage is terminal. She immediately ignites again and sinks rapidly. She still held 2k tons of supplies in her holds!

During the afternoon, xAK Kasuga Maru is also hit once, and promptly bursts into flames. If the fires can be brought under control other damage isn't critical. Again she holds nearly 2k tons of supplies. In a retaliatory air strike, entirely at his own initiative, the Commander of CVL Shoho launches an attack against the port which has little effect. The defenders continue to fire 5-10 shells at each Freighter as she closes on the beach.

As per the emergency plan the Carrier TF was split into four TF; two TF with a single badly damaged Carrier head for Rabaul, one TF with a damaged Cruiser heads for Truk, and one operational Surface Combat TF of a single Cruiser which heads for Lae. The enemy seemingly do nothing to intervene, perhaps supposing the Carriers were beyond saving in any case, which proves partially correct, since as dusk approaches CV Zuikaku loses its battle with the inrushing sea and sinks. Hopefully the valiant damage control parties were rescued by the attendant Destroyers.

The status of CV Shokaku improves a little. The flooding is brought under control and all fires are extinguished. This comes at the expense of deterioration to her engines however, and her maximum speed is now just 22 knots. She is 120 miles from Rabaul in Sub infested waters! CA Myoko makes it through the Solomon Chain to the open sea to the east, and CA Haguro makes it to Lae. The 4xCA (unescorted) get through the straights NE of Lae without incident on their circuitous route to Rabaul (to avoid the enemy Sub cordon south of Rabaul). They badly need replenishment after expending over 80% of their main armament ammunition on bombarding Port Moresby.

Our gathering of Subs around the enemy Carriers is detected and one is attacked by a float plane but no damage results. Did this pack of Subs actually deter the enemy from pursuing our damaged Carriers?

So, the best we can hope for now is a Pyrrhic Victory; capture Port Moresby at the cost of two Carriers!

What is the enemy plan? It would appear to be to preserve their Carriers and not risk land-based (Bettys at Rabaul) air attack in order to punish our surviving Transports as they head home past Milne Bay. Well, maybe we won't go home! If we can capture Port Moresby airfield, and make it operational (we've not bombed it since their aircraft stopped flying from it), then we can fly in land-based bombers and fighters which would make it an intimidating target to take on, and we'd have a range advantage.

So, maybe it's still to be decided. Certainly at the moment the score looks very unhealthy (Allies 1428 : Japan 171).

By the way, while these dramatic events unfolded we slipped a platoon into the Russell Islands 80 miles NW of Tulagi. They're ours. All OURS!





Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/24/2017 9:36:46 AM)

Day 7 - May 10

Best laid Plans!

Surely the graphic tells all?

Hit Port Moresby. Mass Sub attack on enemy CVs. CV Shokaku to escape. And a vague plan to take Guadalcanal from Lae.

[image]local://upfiles/57059/CC96666135A443F6831DF2379B028AB8.jpg[/image]




BBfanboy -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/24/2017 4:56:01 PM)

Those 4 small CAs could have been better used by not bombarding PM (which wastes a lot of ammo in the jungle and on the already damaged airfield) but by embedding them in the landing TFs. They would then fire directly at the shore guns, suppressing their fire considerably. They would also absorb many of the hits that would otherwise be on the transports.

Learning all these nuances about amphib landings is why it is important for new players to play these small scenarios before tackling the big beast GC. It would be very discouraging to be 18 months into a Grand Campaign and lose a major part of your forces because you did not yet know how to arrange things for your campaign.




Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/25/2017 2:43:12 PM)

Excellent advice, BBf.

I agree little and often is a good tactic in a siege situation.

The four Cruisers were incorporated into the CVL TF from the start. Perhaps on arrival off Port Moresby instead of creating a Bombardment TF then that was the time to include them in the Transport (technically amphibious TFs)?

Also, I did not combine the two Transport TFs at the beachhead. Could doing so have improved things? I get the impression that each TF makes a number of approaches to the Beach each day. Does that mean separating Freighters into individual TFs would accelerate unloading?

If the Cruisers had been used in a beach support role, how long would their ammunition have lasted?

Thanks again for your insightful comments.




BBfanboy -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/26/2017 4:29:03 AM)

Ammo during landings usually gets used up in one day's worth of landings (if they start during the night phase). Putting two in the Amphib TF and keeping two for the next day would be a good idea.
Combining the two TFs would not reduce unloading but it would reduce opportunities for the shore batteries to fire at the transports. Typically, the shore guns fire a lot at first and then taper off as they use ops points and suffer suppressing fire from the cruisers.
It is also good to have a couple of AMs or DMS in the Amphib TF if you have them available. They will sweep a path for the transports as opposed to wandering around looking for mines all over the hex.




Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/26/2017 7:47:27 AM)

Thanks again, BBf.

That all seems very sensible and realistic.




Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/26/2017 7:53:57 PM)

Day 7 - May 10

The Outcome.

During the night there was a failed attack on our Sub SS-21 as she stalks enemy ships in their concentration zone. She escapes unharmed. Later SS-21 discovers and attacks the enemy Oiler AO Neosho scoring a central hull hit with one of four torpedoes fired which damages the engines and slows her to a crawl. The resulting counterattack prevents confirmation of its destruction and SS-21 is significantly damaged but she should escape if she can evade the enemy screen and head home.

About the same time the enemy sub SS-Greenling, last seen up near Rabaul, makes an attack on the discharging Transports at Port Moresby, but although a torpedo hit on xAK Kasuga Maru results it fails to explode. For once we have some luck! SS Greenling escapes relatively easily with our Escorts failing to find the enemy Sub.

Despite the presence of at least one enemy Sub unloading continues at Port Moresby. There are occasional hits on our Freighters but nothing of significance.

Shortly after dawn 17x Nells, and soon after 20x Bettys (switched from Naval Search for the enemy Carriers) from Rabaul attack the Port Moresby garrison. These raids are followed by a strike by 6x Kates from CVL Shoho. Results are inconclusive.

Our Ground Forces make a deliberate attack at Port Moresby. Losses are quite heavy (470 troops lost) in comparison to those of the defenders (210 troops). However, our fatigue and disruption is minimal. That of the enemy must surely be higher.

[image]local://upfiles/57059/730B566439D64C8DA98D05709E8BB8C6.jpg[/image]




Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/27/2017 7:33:05 AM)

Day 8 - May 11

Planning - Time is Short!

It seems that CV Shokaku is determined to go to Truk despite being ordered to Rabaul. She is ordered to shelter in Rabaul.

Forces continue to prepare around Lae and Buna for an invasion of Guadalcanal.

We will pound the defenders at Port Moresby by air and make another deliberate attack. We really are short of time now. I cannot risk another day of preparatory bombardment although that would have been advisable given the degree of disruption and fatigue our ground units now face.

Down in the Coral Sea our concentration of Subs will endeavour to take a toll of the enemy vessels, especially their Carriers! It would be nice if we could sink the damaged Oiler.

[image]local://upfiles/57059/00A82E3EED03402C988D13A51018A66D.jpg[/image]




Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/27/2017 7:50:21 AM)

Day 8 - May 11

The Outcome

Unloading continues throughout the night at Port Moresby with the now predictable result. Two Freighters are hit and badly damaged, and one could well go down aflame. Altogether 4.4k tons of supplies are yet to be dragged up the beach. Daylight sees a spectacular air strike by 15 Bettys and 17x Nells which must have hit the nemy positions hard. Later 4x Bettys, somehow delayed, make another strike, followed by 6x Kates from CVL Shoho. We take no losses despite continued flak.

The deliberate attack out of the beachhead is again quite costly; we take 260 casualties, while the enemy lose 150 men and a couple of guns.

[image]local://upfiles/57059/EE92DC1ADB674F6FAF189059B990290B.jpg[/image]




Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/27/2017 8:04:17 AM)

Day 8 - May 11

Submarine Operations in the Coral Sea

Only SS-21 encounters the enemy, making a successful attack against a second enemy Oiler, AO Tippecance, before receiving further damage in a depth charge counterattack. Her damage looks serious and she will do well to escape. However, she avoids further trouble and later reports their target has indeed been sunk. This news could be vital. If both enemy Oilers are out of action then their Carriers may have to withdraw!

[image]local://upfiles/57059/03C6CA9591004532BF68766CCDCE0805.jpg[/image]




Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/27/2017 8:40:27 AM)

Day 9 - May 12

Not a great deal has changed so not much planning to do today. However, it is imperative our beachhead forces take a break. Air strikes will continue from Rabaul.

In the event the weather was so bad that all air ops were cancelled. This was most unfortunate because with our ground forces taking a rest today the enemy got a good rest too! Not what we envisioned! Two previously damaged Freighters succumb to the sea!

Deep in the Coral Sea, one of our Subs takes a shot at CV Yorktown but misses!

[image]local://upfiles/57059/65919A7EA1804F76A2032F4EFE57FDDF.jpg[/image]




Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/27/2017 12:33:58 PM)

Day 10 - May 13

Planning - well what's to plan? It boils down to this; can we capture Port Moresby? Who'll break first? Them or us?

Elsewhere, our Subs will make further attempts to cripple the enemy Carriers.

I've totally bungled my attempt to mount a last minute invasion of Guadalcanal. Every naval unit seems determined to go back to Truk no matter what I tell them to do! The Company of Engineers decided to take shore leave at Lae so there's no time to get them back on the slow boat to Lunga!

Hence, you can see the various bits and pieces bobbing about between Rabaul and Lae. They really weren't supposed to be doing that!

[image]local://upfiles/57059/CBEAE374F3544436BBCF02DB0AD5E2A0.jpg[/image]




Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/27/2017 1:06:31 PM)

Day 10 - May 13

The Outcome

The Enemy TF appear to remain concentrated about the same position but our Subs do not get close today.

Port Moresby is bombed by over 40 aircraft. Surely the defenders must be suffering. Our attack fails to break the enemy today but losses are more even than previously.

Tomorrow is our last chance!

Those of you blessed with excellent eyesight will have noticed our Transports have departed the beachhead. Unloading is complete at last!

[image]local://upfiles/57059/FC6F06D64A7643AE8F8F55EAC899CEEC.jpg[/image]




Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/27/2017 1:14:35 PM)

Day 11 - May 14

The Final Day

The graphic says it all. We must take Port Morseby. Even a Sub getting a lucky hit on an enemy Carrier would mean nothing now.

Oh, we had a bit of good news. Both enemy Oilers were sunk!

[image]local://upfiles/57059/90701EDACCA34C9E9DCD00C17CAA9FBE.jpg[/image]




Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/27/2017 5:27:50 PM)

The END

Well, we didn't make it. A shock attack, for the first time, actually caused marginally more casualties to the defenders than to ourselves (258 to 226) but they just didn't cave in and held on.

We are totally defeated.

Again we never got near the enemy Carrier and their aerial ASW is getting heavy, with four subs being attacked by Dauntless during the day. However, we had no losses. Neither did our 4 air attacks on Port Moresby. We needed more time and we couldn't afford our Carriers to be rendered useless!

The only saving grace is that CV Shokaku made it to Truk.



[image]local://upfiles/57059/2CA6B5FECB1D4855A98C6F79F7D11FC1.jpg[/image]




BBfanboy -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/27/2017 5:37:36 PM)

I really thought you would win this one once you landed troops on PM. You didn't post the first few LCU combats but I suspect your troops had a minus for disruption, fatigue and possibly supply.

Are you going to try again with different carrier and amphib tactics?




Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/27/2017 6:14:06 PM)

The Score Summary

[image]local://upfiles/57059/FAA2F1F78867480FA339432E684CEB4C.jpg[/image]




Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/28/2017 9:45:05 AM)

Hi BBfanboy

Until 2-3 days from the end I too thought I would get the 'Pyrrhic' victory; capturing Port Moresby but at too great a cost having lost so many (civilian) Transports and most importantly the CV Zuikaku.

I'm not sure what benefits the AI gets on the 'Hard' setting, but there seemed to be 5k+ troops garrisoning Port Moresby at the start. Since my given, and pre-loaded Invasion force is only about 6k troops that does not exactly inspire confidence! Remember, when the AI (on Normal) played the Japanese side in game 1, it took Port Moresby after only about 3 days of combat. That equally surprised me.

On this last playthrough the time schedule was like this:-

Day 1-end: Aerial bombardment of Port Moresby from Rabaul weather permitting (approx 80% of days). 1xGp Nells till day 6, then thereafter supplemented by 1xGp Bettys and CVL Shoho.

Day 4: The Transports make the home run along the southern coast of Papua and commence unloading overnight. 2xCL and 2xDD in support. Defenders bombard. [Waiting for the Fleet Carriers cost us a day.]

Day 5: Our CVs put out of action. CVL Shoho added to support at beachhead. 4xCA bombard defenders overnight. Most troops ashore. 16k supplies still to unload. Both sides defend only.

Day 6: We bombard. Enemy defend.

Day 7: First deliberate attack fares badly. Combat modifiers against us are listed as good enemy leadership, and defensive terrain. For us are enemy lack of experience, and enemy fatigue (not disruption).

Day 8: As above except another negative is now our own fatigue. (Neither side are short of supply.)

Day 9: Both sides inactive. Bad weather prevents our air strikes.

Day 10: We make a Deliberate attack with relatively even losses. Enemy still benefits from better leadership and good terrain, and our fatigue. We gain from their lack of experience, poor preparation, and decreasing morale.

At that point I felt the morale factor might be decisive but it wasn't to be.

Day 11: We make a Shock attack which gives us a shock bonus. Otherwise, modifiers are the same as yesterday. Again casualties are fairly even. The Allies hold-on.

At the end we had 5.4k troops in the beachhead and the enemy almost 5k troops (all types), so only a total breakdown of their morale could have permitted our capture of Port Moresby. Neither side wanted for supply throughout, even our strike force of 800 troops (700 made it to shore) had more than enough supplies with them after the first lift. It was simply that the defenders were too resilient (and perhaps we lost that day waiting for the Fleet Carriers?)






Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/28/2017 9:49:48 AM)

I will probably give this same scenario another go on the same setting, but will only post the briefest details of results. (By now I'm sure every reader is tired of seeing endless pictures of my Carriers in flames! [8|] )




Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/28/2017 2:37:29 PM)

GAME 4 - versus Hard Allied AI

Strategy:-

Totally different strategy this time! It's going to be right in their face!

So, the Transports will set-out en masse immediately (at slowest vessel's speed of 10 knots) passing through the likely enemy sub cordon south of Rabaul and protected all the first day by LRCAP by Zeros from Rabaul. On day 2 they will detach the slower vessels which will force landings at Milne Bay and Buna. Rufe float fighters will then be installed at Milne Bay.

CVL Shoho will escort 4 Cruisers past the Milne Bay bottleneck where they will part company, the Cruisers to take action against Port Moresby and the CVL to cause a distraction on the Allied Carriers' western flank.

The Fleet Carriers, Zuikaku and Shokaku, will dash into the Solomon Sea avoiding the enemy subs near Rabaul by passing through the channel near Shortlands which will be reconnoitred in advance by small patrol vessels in the vicinity. The latter will be detached from the retiring (read fleeing from air threat) empty Transports at Tulagi. THE big Carriers will be tasked with keeeping the enemy Carriers occupied until our Transports make landfall.

Our Subs will deploy fairly evenly around the Coral Sea to be in a position to attack any passing enemy Carriers or their support vessels.

Air operations will be as follows:-

Rabaul: Zeros on LRCAP for vessels within 280 miles/ Nells air bombardment of Ground forces at Rabaul soon supplemented by Bettys flown in from Truk/Mavis transports will rest until flying supplies to Milne Bay.

Shortlands: Mavis Naval Search of suspected enemy deployment area

Lae: Zeros on LRCAP for Transports approaching Port Moresby and as Escorts for bombers from Rabaul.

[image]local://upfiles/57059/D25A3EF119D84D688C8B809BDA86F96A.jpg[/image]




Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/28/2017 3:30:27 PM)

Day 1 - May 04

All units ordered to conform to above plan.

The enemy intervene immediately by attacking our two tiny Minesweepers heading for the Shortlands channel. In the afternoon 14x Dauntless escorted by 13x Wildcats sink both minesweepers each with a single 1000lb bomb hit. A case of overkill if ever there was one! Nevertheless I'm sure the US Navy pilots are cock-a-hoop. More worryingly, an enemy sub was spotted in the Shortlands channel. Was it laying mines?

Otherwise, most things go according to plan except for the air raid on Port Moresby. Weather is too bad for that operation to be mounted.

Day 2 - May 05

Planning. So here's the position as we see it now. No change of plan yet!

[image]local://upfiles/57059/0020B016B9D8418B938DD5741D3866A2.jpg[/image]




BBfanboy -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/28/2017 4:21:27 PM)

I suspect mines are pretty scarce in this scenario except as harbour defences. I would not expect straits to be mined but your sub poking its nose into PM may be in danger.

It is good that the enemy carriers used up a full strike going after those AMcs. They only get about 3.5 strikes worth of sorties and will have some pilot and aircraft fatigue starting already.

Don't overuse LRCAP. At 280 miles the aircraft will be at max range (unless drop tanks are already available) and that means they have no loiter time - they get there and leave without any CAP time. The pilots will be exhausted in a turn or two and the aircraft likely to be lost for ops reasons.

You may want to use flank speed for your transport ships to get them to PM before the Allied carriers move up that way. It doesn't matter if they run low on fuel - they can sit at PM after you capture it and the enemy will not get points for them if they do not sink. Embed your cruisers to suppress the enemy CD guns.
If your troops get ashore with enough supply right away you can set the transports to "do not unload" for the rest of the supply and thus avoid the CD guns until you take the base.

The AI will react to the sighting of Shoho by sending the Allied carriers after her. Do not dawdle anywhere!

Good luck!




Energisteron -> RE: Coral Sea (Scenario 3) Human Allies v Hard AI (10/28/2017 4:52:13 PM)

Thanks, BBf

Good advice!




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