RE: 2x3+ 001 Soviet (Full Version)

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Crackaces -> RE: 2x3+ 001 Soviet (7/19/2019 1:41:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soviet South commander
Not a very good opening by the Krauts in the south, I was able to isolate all 7 panzer/mot divisions. So I decided not to run away yet, also because Rumania stays out of the war next turn still.



One should always be careful to be overly critical of an opponent until you understand the strategy. I try and understand first the possibilities. I can cite AAR's where the player records "that was the stupidest play ..." then 10 turns later .. resignation .. In the case of this AAR things develop quite nicely and according to plan ...



Dinglir -> RE: 2x3+ 001 Soviet (7/19/2019 12:52:51 PM)

I did give some thought recently to this kind of opening (where the Soviets at the Rumanian border are not activated on turn one).

I gave it up as the Soviet mobile divisions west of the Dnestr were still activated on turn two, even if the units right next to the border was not.

It'll be fun to see if you can make it work.



Beria -> 2x3+ 001 End Soviet North (7/19/2019 6:42:38 PM)

Soviet Turn 001 End - North

[image]local://upfiles/56450/86ED8D6A724A4D789024D0B323AD39D3.jpg[/image]



Beria -> 2x3+ 001 End Soviet Centre (7/19/2019 6:45:53 PM)

Soviet Turn 001 End - Centre

[image]local://upfiles/56450/A0F93C0063C347F28179A9AAE9AFE734.jpg[/image]



Beria -> 2x3+ 001 End Soviet South (7/19/2019 6:52:43 PM)

Soviet Turn 001 End - South

[image]local://upfiles/56450/8E9C94440E0744F99E9CF98A5E276E0E.jpg[/image]



Beria -> RE: 2x3+ 001 End Soviet North (7/19/2019 6:53:05 PM)

[image]local://upfiles/56450/02C284C8F0A84E599FF75EA7018357FF.jpg[/image]



Zorch -> RE: 2x3+ 001 Soviet (7/19/2019 8:14:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soviet South commander
Not a very good opening by the Krauts in the south, I was able to isolate all 7 panzer/mot divisions. So I decided not to run away yet, also because Rumania stays out of the war next turn still.



One should always be careful to be overly critical of an opponent until you understand the strategy. I try and understand first the possibilities. I can cite AAR's where the player records "that was the stupidest play ..." then 10 turns later .. resignation .. In the case of this AAR things develop quite nicely and according to plan ...

Some players have madness in their method; others have method in their madness.

Thanks for undertaking this, Beria. [&o][&o][&o]



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: 2x3+ 001 Soviet (7/20/2019 12:03:41 PM)

AARs need critical analysis, harsh but non-personal discussions make things interesting. The opening in the South indeed is leaky.



Telemecus -> RE: 2x3+ 001 End Soviet North (7/20/2019 5:01:31 PM)

[image]local://upfiles/53894/37BA20D73FB249D484EE684552E0A75B.jpg[/image]



Telemecus -> 2x3+ 002 Axis (7/20/2019 5:01:48 PM)

T002 Axis Start of Turn
[image]local://upfiles/53894/9C04D54668E34EF791D2416ED6FC5A83.jpg[/image]



Telemecus -> 2x3+ 002 Axis North (7/20/2019 5:02:33 PM)

T002 Axis North

The Panzers drive forward to Leningrad but find the Soviet Union has now started to form a line at Pskow and to its south along the Velikaya river. To their north their flank is protected by lakes and swamps

quote:

An obstacle is only an obstacle if its defended


But with no Soviet troops there 6th Panzer division simply crosses the river connecting the main Lake Pskow to Lake Peipus and drives all the way across the swamps. Ahead of them is tank country completely outflanking the Pskow line, but getting supplies there will be tough.

[image]local://upfiles/53894/952A58647031417FA0BBAA32E5CCF265.jpg[/image]

Follow on infantry crosses the Dvina close behind in I corps - Model has been appointed leader to head the charge.

To see this turn in the AAR by the Axis North commander click here



Zorch -> RE: 2x3+ 002 Axis North (7/20/2019 6:52:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

T002 Axis North

The Panzers drive forward to Leningrad but find the Soviet Union has now started to form a line at Pskow and to its south along the Velikaya river. To their north their flank is protected by lakes and swamps

quote:

An obstacle is only an obstacle if its defended


But with no Soviet troops there 6th Panzer division simply crosses the river connecting the main Lake Pskow to Lake Peipus and drives all the way across the swamps. Ahead them is tank country completely outflanking the Pskow line, but getting supplies there will be tough.

[image]local://upfiles/53894/952A58647031417FA0BBAA32E5CCF265.jpg[/image]

Follow on infantry crosses the Dvina close behind in I corps - Model has been appointed leader to head the charge.

To see this turn in the AAR by the Axis North commander click here

Very good. Looking ahead, what is the earliest Turn that a supplied attack on the forts in front of Leningrad is possible?



Telemecus -> RE: Early Leningrad Capture (7/21/2019 12:46:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch
Looking ahead, what is the earliest Turn that a supplied attack on the forts in front of Leningrad is possible?

The very earliest I think was turn 6 or turn 7. Even last year there was a game on turn 9 I think? The fashion for the "Pskow Defence" make that more difficult now. Very early Leningrad captures I think have to be partly due to a Soviet players choice or mistake.

I have a take on this that I am not sure a very early capture of Leningrad is a good thing. If by a certain early turn you are really sure you have the time to isolate and take Leningrad, then for me that is the cue to to take it more slowly with the follow on infantry. You panzers should instead head south to Moscow. An early capture probably means you used your Panzer divisions to cross major rivers and in urban fighting instead - I am not sure capturing Leningrad a few turns earlier is worth that.

T002 Axis Rail Repair in North and Centre
[image]local://upfiles/53894/DD752733ECCA46B3A205B0A0122F628B.jpg[/image]



Telemecus -> 2x3+ 002 Axis Centre (7/21/2019 12:47:53 PM)

T002 Axis Centre

[image]local://upfiles/53894/63EAF03C52364C27884C6487AE24E291.jpg[/image]



Telemecus -> 2x3+ 002 Axis South (7/21/2019 12:49:59 PM)

T002 South

quote:

South Axis Commander
Difficult situation. Checkerboard in combination with broken pockets... I'll have to work on restoring the situation as much as I can. The road in the center, however, is free up to the Dnepr... Focus resources to the North (race to Leningrad and Moscow...)

[image]local://upfiles/53894/AFA5FE5FAA274AE8B9BE723F1DD45CF0.jpg[/image]

von Knobbelsdorf is appointed to replace one of the two "bad" German Panzer corps commanders. And 14th Panzer division fights a corridor south to the Rumanian border. The Soviet troops on the Rumanian border will now move first during turn 2 rather than after the Germans in turn 3.



Zorch -> RE: Early Leningrad Capture (7/21/2019 3:03:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch
Looking ahead, what is the earliest Turn that a supplied attack on the forts in front of Leningrad is possible?

The very earliest I think was turn 6 or turn 7. Even last year there was a game on turn 9 I think? The fashion for the "Pskow Defence" make that more difficult now. Very early Leningrad captures I think have to be partly due to a Soviet players choice or mistake.

I have a take on this that I am not sure a very early capture of Leningrad is a good thing. If by a certain early turn you are really sure you have the time to isolate and take Leningrad, then for me that is the cue to to take it more slowly with the follow on infantry. You panzers should instead head south to Moscow. An early capture probably means you used your Panzer divisions to cross major rivers and in urban fighting instead - I am not sure capturing Leningrad a few turns earlier is worth that.


Logical, given the armor losses and opportunity cost.



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: Early Leningrad Capture (7/21/2019 5:06:06 PM)

I had two 1.10.00 games in late 17/early 18 with Leningrad taken in T9 or T10. But that was with old HQBU costs=>HQBU spam. Both times the Red army had been broken before so the river crossing and the city were not defended too much, although it still took a major assault. Early capture of Leningrad also was more a byproduct then a goal in itself and if the Red army is still intact I agree with Telemecus/would consider the right hook.



Crackaces -> RE: Early Leningrad Capture (7/21/2019 5:41:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch
Looking ahead, what is the earliest Turn that a supplied attack on the forts in front of Leningrad is possible?

The very earliest I think was turn 6 or turn 7. Even last year there was a game on turn 9 I think? The fashion for the "Pskow Defence" make that more difficult now. Very early Leningrad captures I think have to be partly due to a Soviet players choice or mistake.

I have a take on this that I am not sure a very early capture of Leningrad is a good thing. If by a certain early turn you are really sure you have the time to isolate and take Leningrad, then for me that is the cue to to take it more slowly with the follow on infantry. You panzers should instead head south to Moscow. An early capture probably means you used your Panzer divisions to cross major rivers and in urban fighting instead - I am not sure capturing Leningrad a few turns earlier is worth that.


This particular game it behooved the German to encourage the Soviet to invest as much as possible in the defense of Leningrad. That is because it took to turn 11 to cut everything off :) the more in the Kessel the better ... such a move is doubtful to ever occur again.



Telemecus -> 2x3+ 002 Axis North-Centre Boundary (7/22/2019 5:49:09 PM)

For information only - attached 2x3+ 002 Axis North-Centre Boundary



Telemecus -> RE: 2x3+ 002 Axis Centre-South Boundary (7/22/2019 5:51:07 PM)

For information only - attached 2x3+ 002 Axis Centre-South Boundary



Telemecus -> 2x3+ 002 Axis Allocations (7/22/2019 6:05:51 PM)

For information only - Axis Team allocations for turn 2

(although one learning point we were starting to get was that splitting the air between three ground commanders without someone who could be an overall air commander was not working)



Telemecus -> 2x3+ 002 Axis Points Spend (7/22/2019 6:13:59 PM)

2x3+ 002 Axis Points Spend

[image]local://upfiles/53894/D812536DBF8E4E2994AAE049408B67B2.jpg[/image]



Beria -> RE: 2x3+ 002 Soviet (7/23/2019 9:38:19 AM)

T002 Soviet

quote:

Soviet Deputy Supreme Commander
The enemy has continued its vicious and unrelenting advance throughout all fronts. In the last four days since the start of the Hitlerite invasion of our Motherland, STAVKA reports losses of 183,712 casualties, 1907 guns, 1986 tanks and vehicles... Our estimation of the Axis losses are 23,262 killed or wounded for 252 guns and 156 tanks and vehicles...

a) Do NOT borrow troops of any kind without their written permission
b) Troops must be allocated to start building forts in Moscow and Leningrad - both East of Pavlovo and in Osinovets. Those hexes are #1 VITAL to buildup.


We have a new air commander!

[image]local://upfiles/56450/16729A3A095440E1AF3FF316C5F1FBB4.jpg[/image]
[image]local://upfiles/53894/6AA9BDF84F744264A2C7CA5DC6B7767A.jpg[/image]



Telemecus -> RE: 2x3+ 002 Soviet (7/23/2019 9:39:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beria
quote:

Soviet Deputy Supreme Commander
a) Do NOT borrow troops of any kind without their written permission



@Sardaukar - sounds familiar? [:D] http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4276597



Beria -> 2x3+ 002 Soviet North (7/23/2019 12:22:44 PM)

T002 Soviet North
quote:

Soviet Deputy Supreme Commander
The enemy has decided to go around Pskov and the Velikiya River by dividing its panzer forces by going North, while maintening pressure toward Pskov. Doing so, they has overtaken the swamps north of the city between the Pskov and Peipus lakes. This directly threatens the rear of the Northwestern Front troops in Pskov.

However, Defence of Pskov must be maintained for now, as surrendering this area too soon to the Fascists would be deadly for our forces in the North...

[image]local://upfiles/56450/87D6AF1047EA4D3C8B245D1513F01D6F.jpg[/image]



Beria -> RE: 2x3+ 002 Soviet North (7/23/2019 12:57:23 PM)

002 Soviet Janisjarvi is still frozen - but units can be railed in


[image]local://upfiles/56450/A2801DCB7F6C4A49AE17E44E2C80DF49.jpg[/image]



Beria -> 2x3+ 002 Soviet Centre (7/23/2019 2:52:14 PM)

T002 Centre

quote:

Soviet Centre Commander
Vatutin has taken over 20th Army. Tobulkin has taken over 13th Army.

[image]local://upfiles/56450/6F56F959EB0945E08DFCCA739293B838.jpg[/image]
quote:

Soviet Deputy Supreme Commander (To myself)
The landline MLR is to hold the favourable ground.... Half of 24th Army is to position itself along the upper Dnepr in front of Vyasma, to start building the first fallback line.



Beria -> RE: 2x3+ 002 Soviet Centre (7/23/2019 3:04:32 PM)

quote:

Soviet Centre Commander
- Pocketed troops in Central Front has spreaded enough to block every possible railway line of supplies to all Axis troops in front of the Dnepr.
- Zhukov and Western Front have successfully relocated away from enemy lines. Zhukov is reportedly still alive.
- A temporarily main line of defence has been build between Vitebsk and the Dnepr, while we have occupied the eastern bank of the Dnepr. Strongest presence in Orsha, Mogilev, and down Mogilev to Zlobin
- Strong points were build in the rear at Surazh, in the woods south of Rudnya, north of Chausy, and in on the Pronya swampbanks
- The whole 24th Army is in Reserve, building forts along the upper Dnepr in front of Vyasma.


[image]local://upfiles/56450/4510DF8C06E84411AFC097289A495777.jpg[/image]



Telemecus -> Rumania Frozen Opening (7/23/2019 7:37:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir
I gave it up as the Soviet mobile divisions west of the Dnestr were still activated on turn two, even if the units right next to the border was not.


That surprises me. In all of my tests not only did the units on the border stay frozen, but also everything past Odessa and Nikolaev and almost to the Dnepr. Certainly everything west of the Dnestr stayed frozen for me.

I have only ever done this once (successfully) in anger however here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4639282

Are you sure you were looking at units west of the Dnestr that were south of the Rumania freeze line - which for the Soviet side is different from the unfreeze trigger line for the Axis?



Telemecus -> RE: Rumania Frozen Opening (7/23/2019 7:41:44 PM)

Attached picture embedded in post 182




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