play balance in v1.10? (Full Version)

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Iņaki Harrizabalagatar -> play balance in v1.10? (10/26/2017 1:23:39 PM)

Hi all
I stop playing v1.04 because I felt it was unbalanced and, especially because air units were much too powerful, now I am considering playing again in pbem, but I would like to know if

1) Can the Allied player hold on to Egypt?

2) Can he avoid Spain joining Axis?

I mean if he had a good chance, because in 1.04 both were basically imposible




nnason -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (10/26/2017 1:42:26 PM)

both of these are depends. Egypt depends on Brit and Germany investment which is also true of Spain.
Current game as Allies I lost Egypt and Spain is Neutral as is Finland.
We are Dec 1942 and I still have all three key Russian cities and am near parity in forces. Biggest difference in game right now is low Brit Morale and high German experience.



Sugar -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (10/26/2017 2:24:52 PM)

Hi, and welcome back!

the Franco-DE has been fixed (usually the Axis has to go to Casablanca now, which is very time-consuming), but it`s still easy for the Axis to get them via diplo.

The bombers are not that deadly any longer, they`ll do the same damage as with lvl 2 GA on lvl 3, but the Axis still can have many of them; if they focus on NA Brits will have hard times.

In my experience it`s getting more and more difficult to achieve an early Axis victory, since most Allied players avoid possible bad decisions belonging to DEs; and there seem to be ways to push sovyet and US war readiness (which I didn`t figure out yet, beside using diplo).

I still prefer the Axis...



Christolos -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (10/26/2017 2:58:43 PM)

I haven't played a v1.10 PBEM++ game yet as I am in the midst of playing a PBEM++ game as the Allies that was started with v1.09.01 Beta and upgraded over the course of play to v1.09.10 Beta, but the campaign changes are not in effect because the game was started with v1.09.01 Beta...

For what it's worth, I can tell you that both myself and my opponent, who is beating me soundly as the Axis, feel that the game may be slightly in favor of the Axis player in PBEM++ mode, but this may be because my Axis opponent played very aggressively, by 'tech-ing' up early and by attacking the low countries quite early, taking France early, and starting the invasion of Russia in April of 1941. This strategy, which is hard to counter, seems to be the best way to guarantee an Axis victory as the tipping point for where the Axis continues to get stronger (with early plunder points and early increased MPPs...) while the Allies get weaker, can happen early when the Allies are still relatively weak.

There is also still the play balance issue/dynamics of U-boats and Anti-submarine technology levels that apparently seem to give higher tech level U-boats an edge despite the level of Allied AS technology. See: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4361195&mpage=1�

C



Iņaki Harrizabalagatar -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (10/27/2017 2:40:43 PM)

I wonder, have the other campaign scenarios being updated? I am thinking in particular the 1941 campaign scenario, has anyone played it v1.10? I recalled it was pretty balanced in v1.04 in comparison with the 1939 scenario



Hubert Cater -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (10/27/2017 3:00:58 PM)

Hi Iņaki Harrizabalagatar,

All the campaigns have had some adjustments and fixes and the game engine has as been mentioned above tweaked to ensure better game play balance throughout.

Hubert



OxfordGuy3 -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (10/27/2017 4:01:41 PM)

If the Soviets have reached level 2 Infantry by the time Barbarossa starts, things are very tough for the Axis in Russia, achieving even historical advance rate seem almost impossible



Goodmongo -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (10/27/2017 9:03:41 PM)

The game is really easy as the allies as long as you don't let the Axis do the gamey tech thing.



Christolos -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (10/29/2017 7:27:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Goodmongo

The game is really easy as the allies as long as you don't let the Axis do the gamey tech thing.


Thanks Goodmongo, but how do you propose to not let the Axis do the gamey tech thing?

I assume you mean countering it by tech-ing up early as well...but this is not easy with limited MPPs compared to a high amount of Axis MPPs that can also be boosted early in the game by getting early plunder MPPs...

Cheers,

C



Titan -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (10/29/2017 10:04:40 PM)

I keep getting dusted as allies by my usual opponent whom in most other strat games we are an even match. I keep going allies agasint him and continually lose. I put it down to the German abilty to get through the techs very quickly. Currently its Aug 42 and he has level 4 tanks including heavies and level 3 Tech bombers which is more than a match for my level 2 Soviet armour. One or two airstrikes then on a fortified level two Russian Army does enough damage then his tank finnishes off and then another tank moves into gap and kills whatever was behind line. And its almost impossible to kill any German ground unit. All the German has to do is get the tech on tanks and Tac and with a sound Strategy the game is yours. In my view it needs to be slow dramatically in case of German as allies just cant compete and by the time 43 rolls on two much damage has been done to the soviets. So basically in an historical sense its like the Germans having Kingtigers and Panthers mid 42 and Me 262 and Soviets are fighting with T34 76's just no contenst im afraid.



Christolos -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (10/30/2017 5:12:46 PM)

Hi Titan,

This is what I am thinking too. It certainly does seem that the Axis is able to get through the techs quick enough to tip the balance dramatically and early enough to perhaps win almost every time.

Historically, the Russians had better medium tanks with their T-34s than the Germans did in the early part of the war (and even heavy tanks like the KV-1) until the Germans caught up later (although they could never build enough...), and perhaps this isn't modeled well enough...

I think we also need to make a distinction between play balance in single-player (SP) mode versus play balance in playing against another human opponent (MP). From what I understand, a lot of the play balancing was done to improve the game in SP mode...but this may have tipped the balance in favor of the Axis when playing in MP mode...

I don't know for sure so it would be interesting to get more feedback on this from the community and the developers. We need more stats at this point.

C



Sugar -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (10/30/2017 6:08:42 PM)

The opposite is true, nearly every change favoured the Allied:
- reducing attack values of tac. bombers
- planes are suffering from low supply when not attached to nearest HQ, especially in SU and NA
- occupying Algier doesn`t trigger Franco`s invitation any longer if Casablanca is occupied by allied troops
- it`s not longer possible to get whole France by reducing NM to 0
- GB`s income has increased
- limiting Int.-research to 1 chit means slower progress, and the chance of being suspended increased, since all 3 allied majors have the chance to get first lvl Int. at first
- strat. bombers` range has increased hugely, as well as their escorts


Not that those changes weren`t appropriate (except the last point imho), but alltogether it`s getting much harder for the Axis.

Most players currently avoid typical mistakes related to DE`s, like banning french communists or sending an expedition to Finnland; usually am. and russ. War Readiness is high; SU`s NM is boosted by so many events, usually they`ll easily top german NM, if not facing too much losses.

Also completely blocking norwegian convoy from first turn on is common, crippling german economy by 40 MPPs/turn, leaving them with less income than the Brits alone. There`s less to do about for the Germans with a nearly not existing fleet at that point.

I guess we`ll have to start a tournament, find out the best 2 players and let them do a mirror game. If they judge everything well balanced, Iīll believe it (as I did in WWI Breakthrough SoE).







Christolos -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (10/30/2017 6:42:47 PM)

Thanks Sugar for your input and very insightful comments and suggestions.

There were also these changes:

1939 Campaign

  • Put the USSR back to having only 1 chit invested in Production Technology.
  • Reduced the USSR's starting MPPs back from 150 to 45.
  • Gave Germany a chit in Command and Control.
  • Removed the UK's Infantry Warfare level 1.


And there is also the bug of ASW tech upgrades not countering the ability of tech-ed up U-boats to dive, but this will be fixed soon as per: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4361195

But you are right, a lot of changes were made to favor the Allies, and there are DE choices that the Allies should probably avoid...but it just seems that these can be easily overcome/negated by rapid and early upgrades to tanks and aircraft...

Cheers,

C



Sugar -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (10/30/2017 7:11:13 PM)

quote:

Put the USSR back to having only 1 chit invested in Production Technology.
Reduced the USSR's starting MPPs back from 150 to 45.


Hehe, I would have sold the chit anyway (russian inf. cost nearly half the price anyway), and the starting MPPs are not decisive. In my game with Inaki russian war readines was so low, they collected 417 MPP in total from the start till late march 41.

What I don`t like is their lack of units, and the necessity to develop Inf. 3. I also don`t like that by reaching Inf. lvl 3, their hard defense is that high, making them really hard to overcome.

In total I don`t think the Allies are in advantage, and I still prefer the Axis; but I find it difficult to decide if SC3 is already well balanced.

Let`s have a tournament to find out.



Hubert Cater -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (10/31/2017 1:34:41 PM)

Just wanted to quickly add that all play balance changes have had Multiplayer in mind (first and foremost) and if it is then balanced for Multiplayer, the AI should more or less be balanced as well (due to the AI specific helper scripts), but of course skill levels also play a part too.

That being said we feel that v1.10 should be fairly balanced between two skilled opponents.



Christolos -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (10/31/2017 3:34:35 PM)

Thanks Hubert.

I look forward to playing a new v1.10 multiplayer game as the Allies...but I will wait for the bug concerning ASW tech upgrades not countering the ability of tech-ed up U-boats to dive, to be fixed.

Any ETA on this? [:)]

Cheers,

C



Harrybanana -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (10/31/2017 6:44:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

Most players currently avoid typical mistakes related to DE`s, like banning french communists or sending an expedition to Finnland; usually am. and russ. War Readiness is high; SU`s NM is boosted by so many events, usually they`ll easily top german NM, if not facing too much losses.


Guess I have been screwing up then as I usually do ban the French communists. My opinion is that the hit to French troop morale can be pretty severe otherwise, leading to an earlier conquest of France. But perhaps it is worth it to keep USSR mobilization higher.

quote:

Also completely blocking norwegian convoy from first turn on is common, crippling german economy by 40 MPPs/turn, leaving them with less income than the Brits alone. There`s less to do about for the Germans with a nearly not existing fleet at that point.


I agree. I think that the Norwegian swing to the Axis should be based on the amount of MPPs intercepted. So if you intercept 40 MPPS on a turn there is a 50% chance of a 20% swing to the Axis. While if you intercept 10 MPPs then there is a 50% chance of a 5% swing to the Axis. This way the Axis may gain Norway as an Ally without the DE. It may also prompt the Allies to invade Norway themselves.



Sugar -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (10/31/2017 7:38:45 PM)

Although the blocking of the convoy is a severe disadvantage, I was able to win with the Axis nevertheless; therefore I guess it`s not influencing balancing too much. It also ends with the relocation of the convoy-routes (and the first Axis maritim bomber appearing, hehe).

I recommend a moratorium of related balancing influencing updates (exept the ASW-bug), followed by a tournament.




nnason -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (10/31/2017 7:57:13 PM)

I am playing 1.10.10 beta and the subs have a 2 tech advantage and are pretty much unsinkable.



Christolos -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (11/1/2017 12:36:10 AM)

There's a 1.10.10 Beta?

C



nnason -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (11/1/2017 12:57:39 AM)

Beta is over. I am finishing two PBEM on the Beta server as they can't be moved to the regular server.



Christolos -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (11/1/2017 1:13:52 AM)

Ok, so I guess you probably mean 1.09.10 Beta then...

I too am finishing a PBEM++ game myself with this Beta version.

Cheers,

C



Hubert Cater -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (11/1/2017 3:06:46 PM)

Just a quick update that we are now in the process of finalizing the next update and due to the number of reports and required fixes it will be a Beta update before we push out the official update some time after that. This is just to double check and ensure that we haven't missed anything or even worse introduced an error accidentally.

We are just doing our last bit of testing on our end as well as coordinating with the Matrix Production team, so the word is it will be some time next week and it will be v1.10.01 Beta.

I strongly encourage those that want to play with all the latest fixes/adjustments including the Subs and ASW research fix, to test it out when it is ready, including in PBEM++ as this will give us our best feedback to ensure a smooth official follow up release.

Thanks and thanks again for your patience,
Hubert




nnason -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (11/1/2017 3:43:15 PM)

Hubert,
Can I assume if we are still on the beta server finishing PBEM games that all we will have to do is update tot eh newest beta??



Hubert Cater -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (11/1/2017 4:24:23 PM)

Yes, you'll be able to continue any Beta games in progress, but only the coding changes will be in immediate effect with the next Beta update. The changes that are listed under the 'CAMPAIGNS' section of the VERSION NOTES will not be in effect until you start a new game.




Christolos -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (11/1/2017 7:39:50 PM)

Hi Hubert,

Will the coding changes include the Subs and ASW research fix such that an upgraded v1.09.10 Beta to v1.10.10 Beta, will now have this in effect?

C



Titan -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (11/1/2017 7:54:33 PM)

One thing i would like to see is Tech advances slow down...as once 44/45 rolls on you got pretty much most things at max tech....Suddenly all the enginners and researchers got nothing to do...in reality they would keep progressing. In my view it would be great to see max tech perhaps getting reach towards end if focus has been on it since day one



Harrybanana -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (11/1/2017 11:51:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Titan

One thing i would like to see is Tech advances slow down...as once 44/45 rolls on you got pretty much most things at max tech....Suddenly all the enginners and researchers got nothing to do...in reality they would keep progressing. In my view it would be great to see max tech perhaps getting reach towards end if focus has been on it since day one



+1. But since the Germans start with the tech advantage this would primarily benefit them. So may require some other changes for play balance.



Sugar -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (11/2/2017 12:33:22 AM)

-10.

Without the advantage they don`t need to start the war anymore. Actually research has decreased through max. 1 chit in Int. (V 1.10), giving the Allies the opportunity to overcome with 1 chit in Int. each (and a 3 times higher possibilty for a breakthrough).

Research progression slows down with every new lvl automatically, and the difference between high lvl tanks or fighters is decreasing: getting from lvl 1-2 increases the attack value of tanks by 25%, from lvl 4-5 by 12.5%.

Most of us already know the predecessor SoE, you don`t have to invent the game new. It was pretty well balanced, but the map was tiny in comparison, and the research was so slow, nobody would ever see a Kingtiger in a PbEM.

Research was not only slower, the max. cap was even very low for the Germans.

I don`t believe this game isnīt well balanced anyway, I won all of my PbEMs, even with the Allies. Before changing anymore, I`d prefer to let the best players judge over balancing. Let`s do a tournament!






Hubert Cater -> RE: play balance in v1.10? (11/2/2017 12:55:25 AM)

The coding change fixes the ASW bug, but on the campaign front we decided to make some changes to the dive percentages and a few other factors to take the ASW fix into account. So yes and no if that makes sense.



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