RE: T10

RE: T10 (Full Version)

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Crackaces -> RE: T10 (11/28/2017 1:41:53 PM)
quote: To be honest I like Telemecus bombing campaign and think I'm going to steal that to use in my next German game. I'm so waiting for his writeup!!!!!! (hurry it up already). It is documented in the 8MP AAR .. Telemecus' Theories and methodologies are slowly being published in My AAR of the 2x3 game

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T10 (11/28/2017 1:43:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Crackaces quote: To be honest I like Telemecus bombing campaign and think I'm going to steal that to use in my next German game. I'm so waiting for his writeup!!!!!! (hurry it up already). It is documented in the 8MP AAR .. Telemecus' Theories and methodologies are slowly being published in My AAR of the 2x3 game The full writeup?

Crackaces -> RE: T10 (11/28/2017 1:55:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain quote: ORIGINAL: Crackaces quote: To be honest I like Telemecus bombing campaign and think I'm going to steal that to use in my next German game. I'm so waiting for his writeup!!!!!! (hurry it up already). It is documented in the 8MP AAR .. Telemecus' Theories and methodologies are slowly being published in My AAR of the 2x3 game The full writeup? That is my intent ...;) Probably summarize things starting at the blizzard .. Just waiting for turns ..

tyronec -> RE: T10 (11/28/2017 2:14:11 PM)
quote: I don't know if you are not intentionally flying ground support or if you are out of range. The soviets have massed their fighters up North and behind Moscow, effectively making a couple of no-fly zones for the Luftwaffe. I could do escorted ground unit bombing or have ground support ON but given the strategic situation don't think it is worth the possible cost in airplanes. So am just picking on the odd air base that is out on a limb or doing safe ground unit bombing. Plus the IL2 factories in Voronezh are now over 20% damage.

Telemecus -> RE: T10 (11/28/2017 2:42:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Crackaces quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain quote: ORIGINAL: Crackaces quote: To be honest I like Telemecus bombing campaign and think I'm going to steal that to use in my next German game. I'm so waiting for his writeup!!!!!! (hurry it up already). It is documented in the 8MP AAR .. Telemecus' Theories and methodologies are slowly being published in My AAR of the 2x3 game The full writeup? That is my intent ...;) Probably summarize things starting at the blizzard .. Just waiting for turns .. Curiously I think I have already posted everything I do - but I get the impression no one really noticed. I did post recently on what I think is the most important thing to know in the WitE air war system which I have never seen anyone comment on. And I think no one noticed? Crackaces did make a point though that the implications are not always made clear and where they are profound these need to go with the point. And where things link together they become a system rather than a collection of tips. I know Crackaces was keen to get this documented properly so should be applauded for that. Once that is done it is not just my ideas or of others but everyones, and you then incorporate the counters and so on. Then it will not be scattered in AARs, or in this case by hijacking an AAR - apologies guys! As for EightMP write up mine are ready with very extensive graphics! But we need to wait for when South thinks it right to go further with the AAR and their post for it.

EwaldvonKleist -> RE: T10 (11/28/2017 2:59:19 PM)
quote: I did post recently on what I think is the most important thing to know in the WitE air war system which I have never seen anyone comment on. And I think no one noticed? Curious which exact point you mean with this.

Twigster -> RE: T10 (11/28/2017 3:02:10 PM)
Since thedoctorking and I started our campaign, I have read every post made on the Forum here, (and plenty of older ones). I don't have the time right now, and it's likely no big deal, but when I get back I will make a post and thank everyone who has commented on our game and whose input elsewhere I have found useful. Just so you all know that what you put up has been paid attention to... perhaps not immediately, and sometimes I may not have recognized the timeliness of a certain bit, but all input is certainly appreciated. [8D]

Crackaces -> RE: T10 (11/28/2017 4:18:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Twigster Since thedoctorking and I started our campaign, I have read every post made on the Forum here, (and plenty of older ones). I don't have the time right now, and it's likely no big deal, but when I get back I will make a post and thank everyone who has commented on our game and whose input elsewhere I have found useful. Just so you all know that what you put up has been paid attention to... perhaps not immediately, and sometimes I may not have recognized the timeliness of a certain bit, but all input is certainly appreciated. [8D] The comments from Telemecus are in my AAR http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4360475 post 12 .. the comments will seem obscure because of opsec reasons .. my plan is to continue to post tidbits with explanations with a plan to put this all together as one story once the blizzard starts. Why I choose to do this in an AAR is this is my translation of Telemecus overall plan and methodologies. My execution falls way short of potential on one hand but I think is still interesting to the forum on another .. I would think the newbie like myself would be interested to know at least what the questions are ... Ok .. sorry to hijack your thread my bad ... [sm=fighting0056.gif]

Grognard1812 -> Soviet GT 10 (11/29/2017 1:22:31 AM)
The air war continued on GT 10. By using recon missions I was able to determine where Tyronec's airbases were and where all his fighters were based. Also with the recon missions I was able to determine at what range his fighters were intercepting. His airbases were all placed outside the range of all my Soviet fighters, which meant I wouldn't be able to conduct a bomb airfield mission with fighter escorts, but only with bombers. I conducted every bombing mission I could within range of the Soviet fighters, where I knew the Luftwaffe would intercept, in an attempt to fatigue his fighters, before conducting my airfield bombing missions with the hope that there wouldn't be many fighters left able to intercept the bombers. The unescorted Soviet bombers were almost all shot down, with one example being the following where out of 120 Soviet bombers all but one was lost. All Soviet air missions were conducted during day time. [image]local://upfiles/56401/4BBEFA9151554E879DC354AC5ABB71A9.jpg[/image]

Grognard1812 -> RE: Soviet GT 10 (11/29/2017 1:28:37 AM)
GT 10 Air Loses Heavy Soviet bomber loses were due to airfield bombing missions being conducted without fighter escort. Wasn't a good tactic. Only 12 Luftwaffe fighters were lost this turn. [image]local://upfiles/56401/81B369A39841456D9727998CEC75D3B5.jpg[/image]

tyronec -> T11 (11/30/2017 8:39:39 AM)
T11 AGN. The Soviets have reoccupied the vacant hex across the river at Leningrad but the defence value is only 19 so we should be able to get across the river this turn. There is a partial retreat back from Lake Ladoga so will push up the coast to join with the Finns and also attack further East to cut the railway. My pocket has been reopened, the infantry can close it again netting another division. AGC. STAVKA have retreated from Moscow, leaving 8 divisions and 29 Arm/HI behind. Will seal off and my armour can begin to head south. AGS. More retreating. Will move 17th army up to assault the Don next turn and 11th army will head North. Armour can flip some terrain and rest. Air war. My fighters were well back and I got 404 for 12 from his bombing runs. [image]local://upfiles/52296/D7DDAF48781C4520829E5F81902644B6.jpg[/image]

tyronec -> RE: T11 (11/30/2017 8:40:20 AM)
Nothing much happens this turn. At Leningrad we get across the river and move three infantry divisions in. Pushing up from the south the railway to Lake Lagoga is broken - hopefully this will put Leningrad on low supply. The pocket around Vyshny Volochek is resealed. Moscow is sealed off. We flip lots of terrain between Moscow and Rostov. The assault over the Don is set up for next turn. We are up to 211 VPs, for an early victory we need 242 VPs in April '42 or to take Leningrad, Moscow, Voronezh and Rostov in '41. [image]local://upfiles/52296/216B7F4DEB574485A82F652D5E5114DC.jpg[/image]

chaos45 -> RE: T11 (11/30/2017 4:33:47 PM)
Think that would be game over for the Soviets. Think the Germans have an easy chance to get the final victory cities they need by Mud from the look of the map.

John B. -> RE: T11 (11/30/2017 8:35:26 PM)
Yeah, barring some rockin' soviet counter attack and soon it's hard to see them holding on for too much longer.

Grognard1812 -> RE: T11 (11/30/2017 11:21:29 PM)
The following is the Soviet GT 12 Production levels. After subtracting the isolated Armament factories and Heavy Industry factories in the isolated cities of Stalino, Moscow and Leningrad (which are most likely to be lost), the Soviets are left with 262 Armament factories 178 Heavy Industry factories Does anyone know what the critical level is for Armament and HI factories if the Soviet player is to have any chance of a comeback? [image]local://upfiles/56401/0FCC2649407A488E9995A0F51F90312D.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T11 (12/1/2017 12:06:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Grognard1812 The following is the Soviet GT 12 Production levels. After subtracting the isolated Armament factories and Heavy Industry factories in the isolated cities of Stalino, Moscow and Leningrad (which are most likely to be lost), the Soviets are left with 262 Armament factories 178 Heavy Industry factories Does anyone know what the critical level is for Armament and HI factories if the Soviet player is to have any chance of a comeback? The numbers are debatable as some will tell you different numbers. But I for one use the numbers from a Loki post. The required amount to not take a negative hit is: 320 Arms (This is what I try to keep but can go lower to about 300) 200 HI (This is what I keep but I have seen down to 180ish & still come back to win). You will be struggling for sure imho.

Twigster -> RE: T11 (12/1/2017 2:16:53 AM)
Well, it could not be more clear that 'giving away the store' is not the way the Soviet Union wins the game. Is this going to be the first actual intimidation win for the Axis in WitE AAR history?

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: T11 (12/1/2017 3:28:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Twigster Well, it could not be more clear that 'giving away the store' is not the way the Soviet Union wins the game. Is this going to be the first actual intimidation win for the Axis in WitE AAR history? There is a techique to retreating. But In my opinion Gronard went a bit to fast eastward in the retreat. He has an extremly difficult road ahead if he wants to survive.

Stelteck -> RE: T11 (12/1/2017 7:10:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Grognard1812 262 Armament factories 178 Heavy Industry factories From my experience you are still ok. Armament points needs are vastly overestimated by everyone, except in late 1941 for a brief period, you will never have enough men to use your armament point production. I think you can probably drop to 200, something like that. Supply point (heavy industry) is another matter. As you save a lots of troops (and it was your plan), you will need a lots of supply points. I did a game once with 180 HI saved and it was a little low. I had briefly a supply shortage end 1942. Fortunately the new HI production factor in 1943 solved it. Try not too loose anymore HI. You can still drop a little AA (but of course the most you save the better). You can drop production to save supply but it cost you tons of political point. But your most important problem is to avoid sudden death defeat in my opinion.

tyronec -> RE: T12 (12/1/2017 7:43:50 AM)
Grognard and I have had a misunderstanding, I have been playing to L/M/V/R taken in '41 is an instant victory, he has not. Have agreed to continue without this clause, the write up for T12 below is as written at the time. Would have done a few things differently; not assaulting Leningrad until it was out of supply among others. T12 Leningrad front. Leningrad is cut off from supplies and we take two more hexes north of the river. Moscow front. Moscow is cut off, we clear one of the three stacks. Voronezh front. Get within one hex of the city, two infantry armies and five Pz. Corps on the way. Rostov front. The swamp hex next to Rostov has been abandoned and can get a three-hex attack, so will forget about crossing the Don. Four infantry corps and a Pz. Corps ready to assault next turn. Air war. Luftwaffe are set up to stop supplies coming in to Moscow and Stalino. 219 VPs. [image]local://upfiles/52296/ECE4F049051E4774AD2DE98BD5A09362.jpg[/image]

Twigster -> RE: T12 (12/1/2017 8:33:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tyronec Grognard and I have had a misunderstanding, I have been playing to L/M/V/R taken in '41 is an instant victory, he has not. Have agreed to continue without this clause, the write up for T12 below is as written at the time. Would have done a few things differently; not assaulting Leningrad until it was out of supply among others. T12 Leningrad front. Leningrad is cut off from supplies and we take two more hexes north of the river. Moscow front. Moscow is cut off, we clear one of the three stacks. Voronezh front. Get within one hex of the city, two infantry armies and five Pz. Corps on the way. Rostov front. The swamp hex next to Rostov has been abandoned and can get a three-hex attack, so will forget about crossing the Don. Four infantry corps and a Pz. Corps ready to assault next turn. Air war. Luftwaffe are set up to stop supplies coming in to Moscow and Stalino. 219 VPs. [image]local://upfiles/52296/ECE4F049051E4774AD2DE98BD5A09362.jpg[/image] Not sure how "Sudden Death" can be misconstrued. Be interesting to see how this plays out.

tyronec -> RE: T12 (12/1/2017 9:39:11 AM)
quote: Not sure how "Sudden Death" can be misconstrued. Be interesting to see how this plays out. It wasn't, the difference was at to whether we were playing to a victory condition about L/M/V/R or not.

EwaldvonKleist -> RE: T12 (12/1/2017 10:29:17 AM)
quote: You can drop production to save supply but it cost you tons of political point. The same can be done without AP cost by evacuating not needed factories around, its a more precise form of production cutting but it needs more planning ahead.

Twigster -> RE: T12 (12/1/2017 11:35:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tyronec quote: Not sure how "Sudden Death" can be misconstrued. Be interesting to see how this plays out. It wasn't, the difference was at to whether we were playing to a victory condition about L/M/V/R or not. "We are playing all default rules; no bonuses, no para drops, restricted amphib, server game, Sudden Death. " Sorry... still not sure as to how there could have been any confusion concerning your game parameters. Especially since at no point were any questions raised.

tyronec -> RE: T12 (12/1/2017 2:46:32 PM)
quote: Sorry... still not sure as to how there could have been any confusion concerning your game parameters. Especially since at no point were any questions raised. It comes from how the game was agreed between us, before the AAR was started. It doesn't matter now, we are playing on, the player effected is me and I'm quite happy to live with the consequences.

chaos45 -> RE: T12 (12/1/2017 3:02:39 PM)
His manpower losses are massive just from ground lost so quick, be interesting to see as it goes forward, but I think he will run out of men come 1942...as eventually he has to fight....and if your smart since you have taken so much ground just step back 1-2 hexes most of the winter and his winter offensive will be a waste.

Twigster -> RE: T12 (12/1/2017 5:03:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tyronec quote: Sorry... still not sure as to how there could have been any confusion concerning your game parameters. Especially since at no point were any questions raised. It comes from how the game was agreed between us, before the AAR was started. It doesn't matter now, we are playing on, the player effected is me and I'm quite happy to live with the consequences. Fair enough. My interest in it at all is simply that I am trying to make sense of what I am seeing. I am quite certain that you are happy with the consequences as you are getting an easy win.

Grognard1812 -> Soviet GT 12 (12/2/2017 12:37:53 AM)
Soviet GT 12 Recon missions showed that the Luftwaffe had placed a number of airbases 2 to 3 hexes west of Moscow with about 200 Messerschmitt fighters, and another 100 fighters about 10 hexes further west. It appears that the Luftwaffe was attempting to intercept any attempts by the Soviet air force to airdrop supplies to the isolated units in Moscow. The Soviet air force had about 1300 fighter and fighter bombers in airbases just east of Moscow. In an attempt to overwhelm with numbers the intercepting German fighters, over 20 air transport of supply missions were conducted by the Soviet air force using about 10 - 20 bombers in each mission (only selecting one bomber air group) with 50 to 100 fighters / fighter bombers escorting. Few bombers were lost and the units in Moscow were air dropped supplies removing them out of an isolated status. An airfield bombing mission was then attempted against the Luftwaffe airbases just west of Moscow, but even with fighter escort half the Soviet bombers were lost. [image]local://upfiles/56401/1F8CE465F8B349EE84A8C431DF536C1A.jpg[/image]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Soviet GT 12 (12/2/2017 12:51:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Grognard1812 Soviet GT 12 Recon missions showed that the Luftwaffe had placed a number of airbases 2 to 3 hexes west of Moscow with about 200 Messerschmitt fighters, and another 100 fighters about 10 hexes further west. It appears that the Luftwaffe was attempting to intercept any attempts by the Soviet air force to airdrop supplies to the isolated units in Moscow. The Soviet air force had about 1300 fighter and fighter bombers in airbases just east of Moscow. In an attempt to overwhelm with numbers the intercepting German fighters, over 20 air transport of supply missions were conducted by the Soviet air force using about 10 - 20 bombers in each mission (only selecting one bomber air group) with 50 to 100 fighters / fighter bombers escorting. Few bombers were lost and the units in Moscow were air dropped supplies removing them out of an isolated status. An airfield bombing mission was then attempted against the Luftwaffe airbases just west of Moscow, but even with fighter escort half the Soviet bombers were lost. [image]local://upfiles/56401/1F8CE465F8B349EE84A8C431DF536C1A.jpg[/image] Hmmmmmm, interesting note that you have one blue counter on the whole map, the tank Division. So you have all of your units either directly connected to Stavka or attached to HQs attacked to Stavka? Or you just turned off all color and made everyone white? Basically I'm curious what you have going on here ;-)

Grognard1812 -> Soviet GT 12 (12/2/2017 12:52:37 AM)
A strong defensive position has been established east of the river Don at Voronezh. Was able to isolate 2 panzer divisions with a Soviet cavalry and tank division who also flipped the hexes from Axis control to Soviet control, hopefully delaying the assault on Voronezh by a turn. Also a cavalry division moved around the elite air landing division also isolating it. Strong air units were transferred into the area to provide air support, the airbases and army HQs in the area are all attached to the same front. [image]local://upfiles/56401/088E6F380D2246A1984D2C586ECD2B0B.jpg[/image]

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