Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs?

Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (Full Version)

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fatgreta1066 -> Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/13/2018 2:44:04 AM)
I'm playing One Ship One Country, and whenever I send F-35's with AMRAAMs in, I can't seem to kill many enemies. On average, I get one kill for 8 missiles fired. I've tried messing with the range to target when I release, have had some shots where I was behind the enemy who didn't yet know I was there, but the missiles usually miss. Is there anything I can do in the game to improve my odds? If I just send the planes on a mission and the computer handles it I get 0 kills, every time.

Cik -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/13/2018 3:05:18 AM)
AMRAAMs are air-air missiles btw, not surface-air missiles. if you are really firing against non-maneuvering targets and missing, well, uh. i don't really know why that would occur. if handled by the AI and depending on target i usually get at least a kill every fourth missile, and sometimes more like a kill every second missile. it's adjusted based on target agility so much of it depends on what you are shooting at. a helpful thing to do if you want better advice is to at least list: launching platform range (range to target) target A/C target altitude target aspect specific AMRAAM you are using (A/B/C/D) otherwise a video is probably needed. also post the log output, the formula would probably help.

JCM3000 -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/13/2018 6:59:22 AM)
I've found that most AAW missiles are far less effective at max range than they are at 60% of max range or less. So depending on the level of opponent I often set WRA to restrict automatic firing until a much closer range. Bear in mind though that when facing top tier opponents with modern AAW weapons of their own (AA-12 or PL-12) this restriction may backfire in that they fire first which probably puts you at a distinct disadvantage. One solution to this that I've used is to restrict automatic firing to 1 missile per target, even for 4th gen & 5th gen fighters. This allows your side to fire one volley at max range but preserves missiles for a second volley at much shorter range for targets that get missed by the first volley. This will hopefully out your opponents on the defensive and restrict they're ability to counter fire.

thewood1 -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/13/2018 1:02:42 PM)
Just some good background threads on AAM combat in Command http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3643505&mpage=1&key=bvr� http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3434235&mpage=1&key=BVR� If you search BVR, there are bunch of interesting threads.

fatgreta1066 -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/14/2018 12:01:52 AM)
Yes, of course, AAMs. Here are screenshots of an engagement, and this one gets the best results I've had yet, probably because the first 2 shots are manually launched from what I think is a pretty ideal vantage. [image]local://upfiles/43712/614BC5263E14493AB01AD86D4F7FF6FA.jpg[/image]

fatgreta1066 -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/14/2018 12:03:58 AM)
2nd screenshot [image]local://upfiles/43712/25A17ED9FA9D4F14ACE50405BA2594F3.jpg[/image]

fatgreta1066 -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/14/2018 12:04:24 AM)
3rd [image]local://upfiles/43712/8A8DF1D89ADE4CF3946919812B7B90A7.jpg[/image]

fatgreta1066 -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/14/2018 12:04:48 AM)
4th [image]local://upfiles/43712/446455FB66034AB4BE723C0EE8A4DC5D.jpg[/image]

fatgreta1066 -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/14/2018 12:05:15 AM)
5th (last one) [image]local://upfiles/43712/BF8C907A56C1487A8A99520F363ED3F8.jpg[/image]

fatgreta1066 -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/14/2018 12:38:34 AM)
So the first engagement, they pretty clearly hadn't detected me and I got a couple of pretty close in shots off at the enemy tailpipes, but I launched them manually. I wish I'd let the AI keep control and seen how they handled the attack. The AI then handled the second attack on the F-16C's, and splashed them. By then I was being shot at so must have been detected. I'm guessing that it was my Cadet proficiency that led to the double shoot down of my aircraft, most likely? I was flying this mission with sensors off, hoping that my stealth technology would have saved the day. Should I have turned them on as soon as I was shot at? So this doesn't represent the original post very well, but I went through the trouble of making the pics so I figured I'd post them. As a separate issue, is there any way to know when I've been detected by radar? How effective the stealth technology is working? All my loadouts here are internal only, which I believe makes me much harder to detect?

Cik -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/14/2018 2:31:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fatgreta1066 So the first engagement, they pretty clearly hadn't detected me and I got a couple of pretty close in shots off at the enemy tailpipes, but I launched them manually. I wish I'd let the AI keep control and seen how they handled the attack. they would attack at the range dictated by WRA. you'll probably gain some efficacy by launching manually here, at least at first. quote: The AI then handled the second attack on the F-16C's, and splashed them. By then I was being shot at so must have been detected. yes, probably. generally once they detect missiles coming from you they'll know roughly where you are. quote: I'm guessing that it was my Cadet proficiency that led to the double shoot down of my aircraft, most likely? IIRC cadet cuts your maneuverability modifier (what you use to dodge missiles) in half. the F-35 already kind of suffers in this regard, so having half of what you usually have is not a good picture. if i were to suggest a strategy, i'd say fire everything you have and then split ASAP. ending up defensive with cadet planes means you're dead. quote: I was flying this mission with sensors off, hoping that my stealth technology would have saved the day. Should I have turned them on as soon as I was shot at? nah. it'll just give them a better idea of where you are. turn on OECM maybe, if your plane has it. but if you have good tracks on the bandits you have no reason to turn on radars really. quote: So this doesn't represent the original post very well, but I went through the trouble of making the pics so I figured I'd post them. As a separate issue, is there any way to know when I've been detected by radar? How effective the stealth technology is working? All my loadouts here are internal only, which I believe makes me much harder to detect? it does. you should be able to get <20nm or so as long as you stay front aspect. granted you should probably assume you will be detected as soon as you launch. launch & leave is best strategy here. empty your magazine and then bail at AB out of the combat zone. ever having fire returned at you is recipe for disaster (more than usual) due to cadet. if you look at the last picture, the AMRAAM attacking you is rolling 85% which is an unacceptable gamble. i shy away from anything over 20% or so usually. the lower, the better.

fatgreta1066 -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/14/2018 2:45:53 AM)
Great feedback, thanks again Cik.

wild_Willie2 -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/14/2018 7:24:31 AM)
As has already has been mentioned, the F-35 was not designed as a dogfighter, it can do it, but once heat seekers are flying everybody starts dying, including your ultra stealthy F-35's. My general rule fighting the F-35 against modern opponents is to launch everything at long/medium long range. After firing, switch on your radar to update your AMRAAM's through their datalink and slow down to loiter speed while your missiles are inbound. This will cause your missiles to loose the lease amount of energy correcting for (external) intermediate radar returns on their target and lets you keep the range to your opponent as long as possible. After your missiles have impacted, turn and burn. This should give you a PK of about 0.5 per missile against those pesky F-15's. After this, its just a matter of rinse and repeat until they are all dead, without suffering a single loss yourself.... W.

Zecke -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/14/2018 8:38:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2 As has already has been mentioned, the F-35 was not designed as a dogfighter, it can do it, but once heat seekers are flying everybody starts dying, including your ultra stealthy F-35's. My general rule fighting the F-35 against modern opponents is to launch everything at long/medium long range. After firing, switch on your radar to update your AMRAAM's through their datalink and slow down to loiter speed while your missiles are inbound. This will cause your missiles to loose the lease amount of energy correcting for (external) intermediate radar returns on their target and lets you keep the range to your opponent as long as possible. After your missiles have impacted, turn and burn. This should give you a PK of about 0.5 per missile against those pesky F-15's. After this, its just a matter of rinse and repeat until they are all dead, without suffering a single loss yourself.... W. Hey Willie2; if you got time; WIPT is ready; just put the house rules; but the aircratf On; what the AI gives you; upgrade the path of the planes; if not hellcats, corsairs but LIGHTINGS will overrun my Industry. SALUT.

fatgreta1066 -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/14/2018 7:11:38 PM)
Thanks Wild Willie.

rmunie0613 -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/15/2018 5:51:39 PM)
One thing that also helps is staggering the fire a bit... fire one, then another a few seconds behind it. The defender will use a lot of his agility to evade the first shot, and will not have the energy to defeat the second one, usually for at least a few seconds. The maneuvering under "engaged defensive" uses up a great deal of the aircraft's energy in the trade of potential to kinetic energy...it takes a few seconds to rebuild their "position" to beat the next shot.

KungPao -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/15/2018 8:18:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fatgreta1066 So the first engagement, they pretty clearly hadn't detected me and I got a couple of pretty close in shots off at the enemy tailpipes, but I launched them manually. I wish I'd let the AI keep control and seen how they handled the attack. The AI then handled the second attack on the F-16C's, and splashed them. By then I was being shot at so must have been detected. I'm guessing that it was my Cadet proficiency that led to the double shoot down of my aircraft, most likely? I was flying this mission with sensors off, hoping that my stealth technology would have saved the day. Should I have turned them on as soon as I was shot at? So this doesn't represent the original post very well, but I went through the trouble of making the pics so I figured I'd post them. As a separate issue, is there any way to know when I've been detected by radar? How effective the stealth technology is working? All my loadouts here are internal only, which I believe makes me much harder to detect? for my understanding this is how CMANO decide if it is a hit or a miss: Final PH = Weapon Base PH- max{distance adjustment; target speed adjustment<1>} � [A/C Agility at current Altitude x Proficiency coefficient<2> x Weight adjustment coefficient x (1-damage%) x impact location coefficient] � Sea skimmer modifier <1>. Since 1.13 target speed no longer plays a role in PoH calculation except for slow speed SPSAM <2>. Ace = ? , Veteran = 1, Regular = 0.8, Cadet = 0.5 in your case, it is a close range engagement, AIM-120 still have a lot of energy so you don't see any decrease on it's PoH. F-35's base agility 4.5 is as good as a F-15/Su-27 but not as good as F-22, so please do not expect too much miracle. Cadet proficiency and hit on tail are another two factors reduce the survivability.

Luckschaden -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/15/2018 8:25:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KungPao quote: ORIGINAL: fatgreta1066 So the first engagement, they pretty clearly hadn't detected me and I got a couple of pretty close in shots off at the enemy tailpipes, but I launched them manually. I wish I'd let the AI keep control and seen how they handled the attack. The AI then handled the second attack on the F-16C's, and splashed them. By then I was being shot at so must have been detected. I'm guessing that it was my Cadet proficiency that led to the double shoot down of my aircraft, most likely? I was flying this mission with sensors off, hoping that my stealth technology would have saved the day. Should I have turned them on as soon as I was shot at? So this doesn't represent the original post very well, but I went through the trouble of making the pics so I figured I'd post them. As a separate issue, is there any way to know when I've been detected by radar? How effective the stealth technology is working? All my loadouts here are internal only, which I believe makes me much harder to detect? for my understanding this is how CMANO decide if it is a hit or a miss: Final PH = Weapon Base PH- max{distance adjustment; target speed adjustment<1>} � [A/C Agility at current Altitude x Proficiency coefficient<2> x Weight adjustment coefficient x (1-damage%) x impact location coefficient] � Sea skimmer modifier <1>. Since 1.13 target speed no longer plays a role in PoH calculation except for slow speed SPSAM <2>. Ace = ? , Veteran = 1, Regular = 0.8, Cadet = 0.5 in your case, it is a close range engagement, AIM-120 still have a lot of energy so you don't see any decrease on it's PoH. F-35's base agility 4.5 is as good as a F-15/Su-27 but not as good as F-22, so please do not expect too much miracle. Cadet proficiency and hit on tail are another two factors reduce the survivability. quote: Final PH = Weapon Base PH- max{distance adjustment; target speed adjustment<1>} � [A/C Agility at current Altitude x Proficiency coefficient<2> x Weight adjustment coefficient x (1-damage%) x impact location coefficient] � Sea skimmer modifier Is it really that "simple"? My understanding was that the engine does more realistic calculations under the hood but doesn't tell non PE users about it. I thought things like afterburners making an aircraft more visibile to IR missiles, for instance, would be modeled.

Dimitris -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/16/2018 7:53:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Luckschaden quote: ORIGINAL: KungPao Final PH = Weapon Base PH- max{distance adjustment; target speed adjustment<1>} � [A/C Agility at current Altitude x Proficiency coefficient<2> x Weight adjustment coefficient x (1-damage%) x impact location coefficient] � Sea skimmer modifier Is it really that "simple"? My understanding was that the engine does more realistic calculations under the hood but doesn't tell non PE users about it. I thought things like afterburners making an aircraft more visibile to IR missiles, for instance, would be modeled. No, it's not that simple. Some people try too hard to shoehorn Command into their Excel spreadsheets instead of playing the goddamn game. The sequence that KungPao describes is just the kinematic evasion step, which is the very, very last step in the entire engagement chain. Before that you have the actual detections, both for the weapon carrier and the weapon itself, in pre-launch checks and afterwards in mid-course guidance (this is where the afterburner-IR stuff you mentioned comes into play). OECM is also effective here as it can break lock in mid-course (e.g. interrupt SARH illumination). Then (if the weapon actually reaches the target) you have the endgame phase with the target then first attempting to use DECM, then expendable decoys / chaff / flares as appropriate. Then, if nothing else works, you have the kinematic evasion. And yes, there is a lot of stuff going on that the message log doesn't tell you about. You want to see e.g. the raw surface clutter calculations? It's enough of an info-waterfall as it is already. Just play the game.

Dimitris -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/16/2018 7:57:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fatgreta1066 As a separate issue, is there any way to know when I've been detected by radar? Enemies come towards you and start shooting at you. Usually that's a pretty reliable indicator.

Luckschaden -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/16/2018 11:00:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dimitris quote: ORIGINAL: Luckschaden quote: ORIGINAL: KungPao Final PH = Weapon Base PH- max{distance adjustment; target speed adjustment<1>} � [A/C Agility at current Altitude x Proficiency coefficient<2> x Weight adjustment coefficient x (1-damage%) x impact location coefficient] � Sea skimmer modifier Is it really that "simple"? My understanding was that the engine does more realistic calculations under the hood but doesn't tell non PE users about it. I thought things like afterburners making an aircraft more visibile to IR missiles, for instance, would be modeled. No, it's not that simple. Some people try too hard to shoehorn Command into their Excel spreadsheets instead of playing the goddamn game. The sequence that KungPao describes is just the kinematic evasion step, which is the very, very last step in the entire engagement chain. Before that you have the actual detections, both for the weapon carrier and the weapon itself, in pre-launch checks and afterwards in mid-course guidance (this is where the afterburner-IR stuff you mentioned comes into play). OECM is also effective here as it can break lock in mid-course (e.g. interrupt SARH illumination). Then (if the weapon actually reaches the target) you have the endgame phase with the target then first attempting to use DECM, then expendable decoys / chaff / flares as appropriate. Then, if nothing else works, you have the kinematic evasion. And yes, there is a lot of stuff going on that the message log doesn't tell you about. You want to see e.g. the raw surface clutter calculations? It's enough of an info-waterfall as it is already. Just play the game. Huh, interesting. Is there more detailed descriptions of those calculations somewhere? (Not formulas, but sort of a general description). I'd be interesting to see what sort of factors influence the outcome.

rmunie0613 -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/16/2018 12:47:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dimitris quote: ORIGINAL: fatgreta1066 As a separate issue, is there any way to know when I've been detected by radar? Enemies come towards you and start shooting at you. Usually that's a pretty reliable indicator. [:D][:D][:D]

rmunie0613 -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/16/2018 12:50:59 PM)
^^^ That really is the best "final sign". You can tell a bit, when they start "coming towards you" as the first sign, when your contact reports, radar or otherwise show them suddenly speed up, turn, etc... works well for the ASW part also, in fact. Just remember that there may also be enemies you are not seeing, as well- so the fact the one you do see has not changed course or speed does not mean you are entirely clear, either.

BrianinMinnie -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/16/2018 6:45:24 PM)
Recently I�ve also attempted to play this scenario, so far I�ve been unable to crack the F15 nut. My aim 120�s don�t seem to be as lethal against the f15�s as they are against me, although after reading a couple of tips here I�ve started to shoot and scoot and it appears to be working a little better. While I can see them before they see me, my 120�s don�t want to lock on for a kill unless I turn my radar on and as noted above, they then �see� me and return fire with very solid results against me. If I don�t radiate, my 120�s miss a large portion of the time. Against the f16�s success comes easier and because of their inferior radar I can get closer, shoot scoot and survive the return fire. Are we sure that the f-15�s survivability factor (for various reasons) isn�t too high? Or are they just that bad a**. Scoring seems slanted towards killing something other the fighters also as noted, but so far I�ve been just trying to destroy the fighter cover before attempting air to ground sorties. No Joy! edit: in further reading it never occured to me that the f35's are cadet setting? Does that make as big of a differnce when attempting shootdowns? Thanks

Cik -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/16/2018 7:01:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rmunie0613 ^^^ That really is the best "final sign". You can tell a bit, when they start "coming towards you" as the first sign, when your contact reports, radar or otherwise show them suddenly speed up, turn, etc... works well for the ASW part also, in fact. Just remember that there may also be enemies you are not seeing, as well- so the fact the one you do see has not changed course or speed does not mean you are entirely clear, either. it's a good indicator. "bandits nose-on 40 nautical, angels 26" "uh, 2, how do you know they're hostile?" "they're doing mach 2" "ah" generally hot targets at high speeds mean 1. you are detected and 2. they mean to ruin your day. quote: edit: in further reading it never occured to me that the f35's are cadet setting? Does that make as big of a differnce when attempting shootdowns? not as far as i know. it affects OODA timings and defensive maneuvering. as far as i know it doesn't (at least directly) affect your sensors and weapons performance. you just need to fix the fight so you never ever end up fired upon. that means ambushing or shooting from a range and aspect where return fire isn't possible. though you may be able to sneak up on your prey, the chances that they will manage to return fire at close range (v. high lethality) is also very high so that should probably be avoided. if you are going to get close, you'll have to get so close that you will fire and the missile will hit them before they can attempt defensive maneuvering. if you splash both before they can beam out you can win without return fire. that might not be possible though depending. ultimately if you don't have enough -35 to kill from range, and you can't get close enough to win with the first shot, you may just be SOL.

thewood1 -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/16/2018 7:33:18 PM)
Proficiency has the following impact... OODA (response times) Air combat maneuvers I am pretty sure minimum flight altitude and terrain following and from 1.06 notes... "Apart from making them configurable on a unit level, skill values now also have an even greater effect (e.g. when performing unguided weapon attacks, and in damage control) and their effects / modifiers are intensified. Novices and to a lesser extent cadets are now really lamb to the slaughter, while ace crews almost walk on water. Without knowing in advance just how capable an adversary you are facing (unless reliably pre-briefed), the ghastly uncertainties of combat become even more pronounced." I got this from a couple release notes and just searching on "proficiency" I only put stuff up where the devs actually commented and confirmed. There might be others I missed. This is something I have wanted to do and the above comment gave me the willpower to do it.

SeaQueen -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/17/2018 1:34:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dimitris And yes, there is a lot of stuff going on that the message log doesn't tell you about. You want to see e.g. the raw surface clutter calculations? It's enough of an info-waterfall as it is already. That's what the references that pop up in the "Help" -> "About Command" are for, D. They're a "Get Out of Jail Free" card for when you run into electrical engineering geeks. [:D]

wild_Willie2 -> RE: Any way to improve accuracy for SAMs? (1/20/2018 6:36:44 PM)
Ok, because I had not played One Ship One Country, for a long time I retried it again and got a triumph at 1800 point without obtaining losses myself. Send your AMRAAM AC north to a point east of Shaw AB, just out of AMRAAM range. Send your JSOW loaded F-35's to a point about 35 miles SW of Beaufort at 0 feet (they are carrying external bombs and are not stealthy anymore so have to approach low in order to avoid detection). Turn on the Jammers and radar on your AMRAAM carriers on fly towards Shaw launching all your missiles, and then head east at military trust. The F15's and F16's now get target fixation on these AC and your JSOW carriers can now climb to 12000 feet and head towards Beaufort at military trust. The F15's/16 will leave them alone now as they are trying to engage the AMRAAM carriers. Once in range launch all JSOW's at the Beaufort hangars and turn west. All AC must now go EMCON silent and speed east to avoid pursuit. Avoid all pursuit and RTB. SIDE: Cabotia =========================================================== LOSSES: ------------------------------- 2x F-16C Blk 30 Falcon 18x C-5B Galaxy SOLL 3x A/C Hangar (2x Large Aircraft) 4x A/C Hangar (4x Large Aircraft) 1x F-15C Eagle 4x M113A3 APC 1x 20mm/100 Mk15 Phalanx Blk 1B CIWS [C-RAM Mod]

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