DE 603 Germany/Franco (Full Version)

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PvtBenjamin -> DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/15/2018 9:28:20 PM)

Is it the intent of the game that 6-9 months after the fall of France that the Germans can do a lame amphib attack on Algiers and if Spain relations are +30% Axis DE 603 Fires?



Taxman66 -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/15/2018 9:34:55 PM)

You can forstall it by having the UK garrison and defend Casablanca.

Additionally that DE is also exprmsive.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/15/2018 9:42:07 PM)

So I have to put a garrison in Casablanca before the fall of France for this not to happen?

This makes sense to you?

Its IDIOTIC

and they wonder why more people don't play PBEM

800 points isn't expensive getting the control of Spain and the troops/points the Axis receive. Absolutely not.



HamburgerMeat -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/15/2018 10:12:39 PM)

There is also the option of declaring war on Vichy Algeria as the Allies. I think as long as they're within a few hexes of Casablanca, Spain won't switch.

Still, I agree with PvtBenjamin. It still seems too easy to get Spain as Axis, especially if you declare Vichy France THEN attack Algeria. I have some ideas on how to help balance this:

-Increase the Axis-Spain relationship requirement (maybe 50%?)

-Warn the Allied player of the potential implications if there are no Allied troops in NW Africa

-Leave the Casablanca port in Allied control, even if Algeria surrenders (leave in Allied control until an Axis unit actually occupies Casablanca)

-Require Axis units in Casablanca

-Reduce MPP gains in Spain (to disincentivize the DE 603 investment)

-Increase the cost from 800 MPP to 1000 MPP

-Increase the default strength of the Algerian corps




crispy131313 -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/15/2018 10:51:54 PM)

If the UK chooses not to launch operation catapult or recognize Vichy France then the Vichy French Battleships should deploy at Algiers when the Axis declare war, however right now they do not. Best if they could be deployed first in port, and second in hex 151,112 (the hex where amphibious attacks can strike Algiers) but I'm not certain if that is where the unit would deploy by default. The presence of these coastal ships would require the invasion to be much a more coordinated attack and if there is any Allied Navy presence in the region at all, very risky for the Axis as well. I'll probably add this small change into Fall Weiss II, thanks for bringing this topic up for discussion.



Taxman66 -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/15/2018 11:04:19 PM)

If you did that then why would the Allied player ever launch operation Catapult?

I suggest adding a DE for the UK that fires on the first Allied turn after Vichy is declared:
I'm not sure of what the premise would be, but basically allow the UK to Garrison Casablanca upon German DOW with Algeria. Say ?? MPP to put a UK GAR unit there.



KorutZelva -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/15/2018 11:20:14 PM)

Have an extra expense -50 mpp 'supplies to spain' when Spain joins. Basically, joining the Axis shuts them from trade they do with the USA and others when they were neutral which diverts the Axis power to step in and compensate.

Have wolfram trade agreement jump to 20 mpp to increase the opportunity cost of Spain joining.

Basically having Spain joining would still be desirable to get access to Gibraltar and additional manpower but not for economic reasons. The Axis gets too much mpps in the base game anyway... I like crispy's mod approach to this where they have to work for their trade routes.



Harrybanana -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/15/2018 11:22:51 PM)

My understanding is that DE603 does not trigger until the Axis turn after Algiers is captured. This gives the Allies one turn to garrison Casablanca. Is that correct, or do I have it wrong?



crispy131313 -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/15/2018 11:32:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

If you did that then why would the Allied player ever launch operation Catapult?



Well if you don’t launch operation catapult and Germany still attacks Algeria then I think they get to raise 2 Battleships in the region, so it would be even more of an Axis victory. It’s not as if they would be a surprise to the Axis player, they will be aware that there was no operation catapult.



Taxman66 -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/16/2018 12:14:41 AM)

I thought you were proposing that those 2 BB were the ones that would defend Algeris.



crispy131313 -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/16/2018 12:23:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

I thought you were proposing that those 2 BB were the ones that would defend Algeris.


Currently if there is no operation catapult, and if Algeria surrenders to the Axis then Germany receives 2 Battleships. I was proposing that if Algeria is attacked these Battleships would defend Algiers, so yes you are right. But now I see my error in that I can not have both scenarios with the same ships.



James Taylor -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/16/2018 2:05:02 AM)

I always keep an Allied naval presence in the western Med.

The Gibraltar chokepoint dictates it as well as the possibility of Spain joining Axis requires a quick UK response.

Why would you not?



Leadwieght -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/16/2018 2:32:37 AM)

I agree with SeaMonkey. Keeping a British naval presence in the Western Med is generally an effective deterrent against the post-Fall-of-France Algiers gambit.
Unless you, as the British player, have failed to damage the Italian fleet, and even then you should be able to make the Axis pay a price in Italian ships to get at Algiers.

I've played several games as the Allies where I was able to make it impossible for the Axis to contemplate this gambit, and I'm sure others have too.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/16/2018 11:15:05 AM)

I have a solution. If you play someone who employs this lame rule end the game and don't play them again.

Its another example of the poor amphibious component of the game.

This rule should only be right after France surrenders Algiers when Vichy isn't accepted.

I had no ability to take Casablanca.

Putting a naval presence, WOW genius. You played against the v1.12 german subs lately?



Leadwieght -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/16/2018 12:47:52 PM)

If the Axis really wants to take Algiers after Vichy, they can do it by committing enough resources. The Allied counterstrategy is to be aware of this possibility and make sure the Axis pays a steep price either in the Western Med itself or by taking advantage of any other area that's been weakened because of the commitment of Axis resources to taking Algiers.

Yes, subs are effective, but the Germans have to get them into the Med, which is only easy if the Allied player has no naval presence near Gib.

Pvt B., can I suggest you adopt a mutually-agreed upon house rule with any of your opponents: no Axis investment in Amphib warfare research, or a maximum of 1 chit at a time. I'm sure you could find like-minded players to agree to one of those restrictions. In my opinion, and it's just my opinion, the latter option would strike the right balance between historical realism and game balance.

In fact, I'd be happy to play as the Axis against your Allies with the agreement that the Axis player would be limited to max of one German and one Italian chit invested in Amphib warfare at any time.

Whaddya say?



Taxman66 -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/16/2018 1:24:48 PM)

I'm curious how you are exactly splitting the UK fleet up.
How many/what type of units are you investing in the Western Med?
In patrolling the Atlantic side of Gibraltar? Are you abandoning the Eastern Med to do this?
Are you minimizing what you keep near home waters, particularly if Sea Lion is still a possibility?

If you try to defend everything you spread yourself thin and can get overwhelmed in a single area.



bullet911 -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/16/2018 1:38:10 PM)

I agree with leadwieght on this, and yeah the 40% dive chance for subs is possible a little high but can see why, allied players don’t complain when they naval cruise 4-6 destroyers to trap 1 sub when its been found untill its destroyed
Pvt benjamin what im wondering is what is your royal navy doing 6-9 months after the fall of france? If sea lion hasn’t happened by then chances are its not. surely theres enough ships to cover Egypt (dont for get the canadian maritime bomber) and the western Mediterranean
How are you using the UK subs and carriers?



Taxman66 -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/16/2018 2:11:12 PM)

quote:

What im wondering is what is your royal navy doing 6-9 months after the fall of france?


But that is when the Algerian gambit would work best (late Summer through fall of 1940. Even doable in late '40/early '41. All when Sea Lion is still viable.
How do you split the UK fleet in all those places and not get overwhelmed when the Axis fleet(s) attack one spot in mass?



James Taylor -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/16/2018 3:43:31 PM)

Haven't played with 1.12 yet, still finishing 1.11 games. Never the less, UK investment in anti-sub tech is a staple. I don't even go sub hunting(in earnest) till Allies have tech 1.

Usually a couple of BBs with the same number of CAs, a sub, destroyer and a CV pretty much dominate the western Med. There is of course the all important screening with transported garrisons(the recon group).

Now, additionally if you'll keep a couple of Corps/Army/Tank groups, etc. on the water for rapid deployment to threatened areas will enable the Allies to delay Axis gains.

Think about it guys, the eastern Atl./ western Med. is a very important area around the Gibraltar axis. A strong Allied naval presence can move into either body of water and enforce their will.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/16/2018 3:50:39 PM)

[>:]



bullet911 -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/16/2018 4:48:47 PM)

PvtB maybe you need some more playing experience? I don’t know!
If your royal navy (or some of it) is in the Gibraltar side of the med how can the axis airforce reach algiers from Sicily in 40/41? Sardinia maybe with long range researched i haven’t checked
And if the axis declare war on tunisia surely you can see how its going?



James Taylor -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/16/2018 5:01:19 PM)

Ha! Welcome Pvt, to a world that is out of your control.[:D]



PvtBenjamin -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/16/2018 5:13:56 PM)

Maybe numbers aren't your thing. The allies need to patrol east/NE of Algiers to see if an invasion force is coming. Run into a sub and you are well in range of Sardinia Medium/Str Bombers. After taking Malta the Axis just sends bombers to Sardinia and transports HQ. The Axis declares war and takes Algiers in that turn, no warning. So you guys are telling me you put large RN force out of port east of Gibraltar and just have ground force floating at sea. You need to play some better players.



bullet911 -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/16/2018 5:25:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

Maybe numbers aren't your thing. The allies need to patrol east/NE of Algiers to see if an invasion force is coming. Run into a sub and you are well in range of Sardinia Medium/Str Bombers. After taking Malta the Axis just sends bombers to Sardinia and transports HQ. The Axis declares war and takes Algiers in that turn, no warning. So you guys are telling me you put large RN force out of port east of Gibraltar and just have ground force floating at sea. You need to play some better players.

UK has 2 subs and 5 carriers use them to scout



PvtBenjamin -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/16/2018 5:37:26 PM)

And how about Egypt & Sealion?

Please lay out in more detail how you use the RN to protect GB, Egypt, Algiers and protect convoys.

So you guys are telling me you put large RN force out of port east of Gibraltar and just have ground force floating at sea. You need to play some better players.

[sm=00000734.gif]



James Taylor -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/16/2018 5:46:52 PM)

How about an LR Naval Bombers out of Gibraltar? Did you forget the "screening force"? Garrison in transport mode are of negligible expense.



Taxman66 -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/16/2018 5:53:01 PM)

Even I have to admit that using GAR in Transports sounds awfully cheesy.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/16/2018 5:53:59 PM)

All this inst some exercise on how to prevent Algiers because you know its going to happen. It fits into the total RN strategy. So you put the bomber in Gibraltar every game, Really? What are you going to do with the garrisons in transport?

An Axis bomber in Sardinia can see 6 hexes east of Algiers up to Cartagena, so I'm interested where you hide these subs and carriers to patrol.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/16/2018 6:05:48 PM)

Deadweight your on if no amphib other than sealion/Southern England prior to 1942.

If you pull the same lame amphib tricks the last time we played game over



KorutZelva -> RE: DE 603 Germany/Franco (2/16/2018 6:08:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

And how about Egypt & Sealion?

Please lay out in more detail how you use the RN to protect GB, Egypt, Algiers and protect convoys.

So you guys are telling me you put large RN force out of port east of Gibraltar and just have ground force floating at sea. You need to play some better players.

[sm=00000734.gif]


Well... on the flip side Germany ain't conquering the UK, Egypt and Algeria all at once that's for sure.

If the Axis declares on Tunisia it's time to cruise a transport towards Casablanca. Doesn't have to be a entire army group. Just a guy to plop on Casablanca as a delay. Once the intention of the axis is clear you can decide to reinforce him or not with additional units or an HQ but just getting him to chase you from that spot is a small victory of sorts. You can have naval assets protecting landings in Algiers that are out of range of Sardinian bombers. Egypt doesn't need tons of naval assets since it can rely on land based air for deterrence.

It's not the base game (and this is a 'all of france gambit') but Taifun vs Crispy current AAR shows how the UK is not powerless in providing some interdiction Algeria while having enough ships to fight the Germans in the north sea (page 2).



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