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warspite1 -> RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably Historically (3/7/2018 10:25:42 PM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rkr1958
quote:
ORIGINAL: Centuur
No Winter war? In that war, the Soviets took losses which would mean the removal of two corps...
quote:
ORIGINAL: Centuur
No Winter war? In that war, the Soviets took losses which would mean the removal of two corps...
I struggle with several points on this war as well as with the Norwegian campaign. I'm still open to both if I can both historically modeled them well and really game them, not artificially game them, within MWiF. Let me list the points I'm struggling with (both historically and gaming them):
1. (gaming point) If the Germany player denies the claim, and assuming the Soviet player is ready, why would the Soviet player not immediately put a unit into Finland outside of the borderlands, say near Pestsamo, thus preventing the Germany player from every being able to enforce peace. Then, this would give the Soviet player almost 2-years to conquer Finland. While the Soviets would lose 2-chits, the Germans would lose the Pestsamo RP and any reasonable chance of threatening the Murmansk convoy when they did invade the USSR in the summer of 1941. And, not to mention that the Soviet northern flank would be 100% secure. I know these are all gaming considerations, but MWiF is the engine under which I have to resolve this.
2. (historical point) Now, Hitler was delighted over the winter war, the casualties the Soviets took and the embarrassment it caused the international community. In fact, some historians suggest the harm that the inferior size Finnish army inflicted on a much superior size Soviet army was confirmation of how easily German could invade the USSR, crush the Red Army and conquer the Soviet Union.
3. (historical point) Previously, I stated the hypothesis that Churchill championed, possibly even hatched, the allied plan for intervention/invasion of Norway in order to directly, or indirectly, support the Finns against the communist USSR. Also, and this is historically documented, the allies were saved a possible DOW on the USSR only because the Finns agreed to an armistice, in March 1940, with the Soviet Union before the British were ready to make such a DOW in support of the Finns. My reference for this "historical documentation" is from a 1970's interview, captured in BBC's a "World at War", with Chamberlain's private secretary (Sir John Colville). Now as Warspite pointed out in post 52, there was the Altmark Incident, in which the RN destroyer Cossack attacked the German tanker Altmark in Norwegian waters in order to free some 300 British prisoners onboard. So, was it the Altmark Incident or was it Churchill's planned invasion/intervention in Norway that prompted the German invasion of Norway. Mr. warspite also points out in post 52 that he doesn't believe the German spy network at that time was capable enough to have direct knowledge of the allies plans. However, could German intelligence have crediblly discerned allied intentions from non spy sources source (e.g., radio traffic, increased naval traffic in and around Norway)?
4. (historical & gaming point) As brian points out in post 55, it was the irreplaceable quality of Swedish iron ore that made protecting this source vital to the Germans even to the invasion of Norway to secure this source. He also goes on to point out that MWiF does not have an “Element in Flames (EIF)” kit, nor I believe do we wish to have one. Within, MWiF giving the Brits 13 CP’s and 2 transports, equivalent to 21 BP’s, in a “preemptive invasion of Norway” and at a time where significant German land and air forces would be tied up in such an operation when sorely needed on the Western Front just doesn’t make sense. On the flip side, an allied invasion of Norway in 1940, given the dirth of their forces and knowing that this would align Norway to Germany giving gifting them significant Norwegian ground and naval forces just doesn’t make sense either. So how does one resolve all this in an historical believable manner within the MWiF game engine?
HISTROICAL MOD CONSTRAINT. I probably should now explicitly state a constraint that I’ve been designing this mod against. I will (or plan to) only script political events within MWiF. With this I mean, DOW’s, demands made, claims denied, garrisons maintained, etc. At the fighting level just below all this I wish to attempt to implement the best MWiF strategies and tactics to win the campaign, or even the war, for all sides involved.
Phew … in conclusion to this post ... given all these considerations,
How do I accurately and acceptably play out the Winter War and Norwegian Campaign within MWiF during late 1939 and early 1940?
warspite1
Let's be absolutely clear here on the history side of things because there has been a couple of mentions of assisting Finland.
Britain and France (rightly) declared war on Germany in September 1939. Though it was the right thing to do, these two countries were in no way shape of form prepared for the war about to be fought and the way the respective governments went about ahem prosecuting the war in those opening months was a total shambles.
Finland was an excuse to get involved in Norway. Had the Anglo-French 'force' landed in Norway ahead of the Germans what exactly was supposed to happen? They hadn't got a clue but were relying on BOTH Norway and Sweden allowing the passage of British/French troops to cross through northern Norway and be happy for that to happen. Both countries rejected diplomatic moves to that effect - and I think its certain how Sweden (and probably Norway) would react to such a move in the flesh.
The Anglo-French forces that landed in Sweden was an excellent combined arms force.... excellent except it was too small, full of inexperienced, territorial troops, without AA or AT weaponry let alone tanks. There was no air cover save a belated attempt to put a handful of Gladiator biplanes onto a frozen lake (they lasted about 48 hours).
So these troops - barely a full Division, are going to hold their positions in Norway, while moving across difficult terrain (with few ski troops) and occupy and hold the Swedish ore fields. How many of these men are then going to move into Finland?
Let's say for a second that Norway agreed to side with the Western Allies, just what do the Germans do about it? They land in Southern Norway and as soon as they do, how many Allied troops are going to even think about heading for Sweden?
If Sweden was thinking of throwing in their lot with this hare-brained scheme, as soon as a) they realise the size of force committed by the Allies and b) the Germans land in Southern Norway then any possible thought along those lines goes out of the window.
The Western Allies went to war over the line in the sand that was Poland. But they didn't declare war on the USSR when Stalin invaded Poland - nor over the Baltic States, or Finland or Bessarabia. Even if the Western Allies wanted to get involved in helping 'plucky' Finland - and declaring war on the USSR in the meantime, then the grim realities of war would have quickly disabused them of that ridiculous notion.
How should this be treated in MWIF? Germany can invade Norway (the Western Allies can't). CW/France can't under the rules of WIF declare war on the USSR iirc and there is no reason for that to change. If the CW/French decide to contest Norway they are limited to sending one weak black-print (5-strength max) infantry corps to Norway, while France can send an infantry division only. This still leaves the major problem of why would Germany do this and detract from the French campaign? That I don't have a suggestion for [:(]
I think it sensible for Germany to allow the borderlands - otherwise you get into all that ahistorical peacekeeper stuff.
Combined with the Eastern Poland rule you put in place, the Soviets now have the border land of Finland, they have to properly invade Eastern Poland (and maybe garrison it too (although will need to do that anyway ultimately)) and have few troops left for ahistorical ventures.
As for the cost to the USSR of the Winter War - in the context of the size of the Red Army it means nothing. but by giving up the borderlands that is Mannerheim's raison d'etre for throwing in his lot with the Nazis to get back the territory lost.
Just my £0.02GBP
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