projectile choice (Full Version)

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arethusa -> projectile choice (5/30/2003 8:20:14 AM)

In many cases, your initial load for any kind of ATG may include HE, AP, HEAT, APCR etc.

When you shoot at a target, the AI automatically chooses the best projectile for the job such as HE for infantry and soft vehicles or an armour piercing round for AFVs.

However, often your first target might be a AC, HT or LT which being armoured, will cause an APCR round to be fired since it may have the best chance of penetration. It seems to always use up the APCR ammo first against armour.

But since normally the supply of APCR is quite low, if I was the gunner, I'd want to save that really good ammo for the MBT just around the corner. In the meantime though, I have to deal with this pesky lightly-armoured vehicle and even and HE or at least a regular AP would do the trick.

Is there any way to stop the SI from using up your APCR uneccessarily until you meet the heavies?



Buzzard45 -> IIRC (5/30/2003 9:08:18 AM)

Nope:(



Capt. Pixel -> (5/30/2003 11:23:38 AM)

Not only nope, but I've never been able to figure how a unit chooses APCR over AP.

Range is important, but I've had some tanks (Centurion Mk3) that have an APCR loadout, but will never fire that round until the AP is expended. Others (Centurion Mk2) are quite happy to pop off APCR rounds at range (40+) until they're empty and then switch to AP.

Seems to me to be a random choice. :cool:



Gary Tatro -> Well I know a few things (5/30/2003 8:55:05 PM)

Most APRC ammo can not be shot over a distance of 10 hexes. Unless you are using a unit that has only APRC ammo then it is its max range.

A unit will use AP ammor over APRC ammo if the chance of penatration is greater than 50%. IE if I am a T34/85 and at range 10 have 102mm penatration /2 = 51mm. If I am shoting at a half track and its armor is 25mm the T34 will op fire AP instead of APRC. Now if it is a light tank with 60mm of frontal armor, the Computer will generally select APRC ammo.

On a side note, think of it this way. You are the commader of the tank you see a halftrack full of Russian Guards speeding your way to come and assualt your tank, or a tank trying to close range so it can flank, you would you use the ammo that if you hit would have a better chance of skiping or not penatrating the armor or would you use the ammo that had the best chance to destory that AFV in its tracks and worry about the next AFV when and if it shows up?



Irinami -> Yes, there IS a way! (5/31/2003 6:26:45 AM)

You can always select HE at a slight cost to accuracy by bombarding the hex with Z-fire. ;)



arethusa -> Re: Yes, there IS a way! (5/31/2003 7:39:21 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Irinami
[B]You can always select HE at a slight cost to accuracy by bombarding the hex with Z-fire. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

Now that's an interesting idea! Even if it's not killed, it might get supressed enough to make it irrelevant until you can use your good ammo up on the heavier armour.



Buzzard45 -> Re: Yes, there IS a way! (5/31/2003 8:12:25 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Irinami
[B]You can always select HE at a slight cost to accuracy by bombarding the hex with Z-fire. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

That is fine for your turn but does nothing for OP fire. What would work as well, if it is only a fairly soft target is to shut down the main gun and us the AAMG. A 50cal will kill any HT and most AC. Penetration factor is around 19.



Capt. Pixel -> (5/31/2003 10:22:25 PM)

I've noticed recently that 'Z' fire doesn't usually cause the units in the target hex to retreat ( a particular problem with US infantry, who'll retreat if you look at them cross-eyed).

For some reason, targets of 'Z' fire just stay put and suck it up. I've found this useful if I'm firing large caliber (> 75mm) and particularly around clusters of infantry. :cool:



Belisarius -> (5/31/2003 11:45:36 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capt. Pixel
[B]I've noticed recently that 'Z' fire doesn't usually cause the units in the target hex to retreat ( a particular problem with US infantry, who'll retreat if you look at them cross-eyed).

For some reason, targets of 'Z' fire just stay put and suck it up. I've found this useful if I'm firing large caliber (> 75mm) and particularly around clusters of infantry. :cool: [/B][/QUOTE]

Ouch. ouch. ouch. :)

Thanks for the tip, Cap'n! Never noticed it - I'll try that next time I have a large caliber SPA nearby. (like my StuH babies :p)



Capt. Pixel -> (6/4/2003 10:27:57 PM)

Okay, I played a few Hotseat games to try to come up with some reasoning for ammo selection. The results were muddy to say the least. Lots of T-44s and BA-64s died that day. ;)

The Centurion Mk3, as I mentioned earlier, won't fire APCR (APDS for the Brits) until they've exhausted their AP. This was true at all engagement ranges I tested. The Nashorn exhibited the same behavior.

The Centurion Mk2 preferred APCR over AP at all engagement ranges (out to 50 hexes on the 17 Lber!)

The Pzkw IIIJ/L/M fired their APCR alternately with AP at about a 50/50 rate. Their APCR range is only 16, but within that range they could get off a shot or two of APCR every turn.

I would suggest that, if your armor is APCR-equipped, you don't count on it to do the right thing. It doesn't seem to be all that predictable (excepting the Centurion Mk1 & 2)

I didn't test all possible APCR-equipped units, but these examples seem to cover the gamut. :cool:



Jim1954 -> (6/5/2003 1:41:08 AM)

For whatever it's worth, at least there will be some sort of rationalization in CL.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39629
:)



Voriax -> (6/5/2003 1:44:48 AM)

The problem with Centurion Mk3 is as follows:

The AP and APCR penetration values are too close to each other. Furthermore, APCR pen is haywire. The oob figure is 255 for its APCR, but when you look at the unit data during game the max pen is listed 318. This may also confuse things.

For example when I lowered the AP pen value from 251 to 151, Centurion 3 begun using APCR normally.

Perhaps this can be fixed in the new OOB set? I ran only quick (10 minutes) test so I don't know what would be 'optimum' values for APCR to work.

Voriax



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