Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (Full Version)

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KorutZelva -> Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/21/2018 9:42:35 PM)

Hi there ladies and gents! This is the showdown you all been waiting for!

In the right corner, undefeated in 50+ games in SC 3 and veteran of 250 game in SoE Breakthrough, Sugar. Sugar plays a methodical cookie cutter Axis game to perfection. Also might be a robot.

In the left corner, AAR enthusiast and rising star of the forum, the one and only KZ! Had not played pbem competitively since the days of SC 1 but has racked up a respectable records of 5-1 in pbems game since starting his SC 3 career. KZ plays an aggressive diplo game and rarely use the same strategy twice.

Game on!

Poland was felled in two turns, on schedule.

We get our first surprise on turn 1 with Germany buying 150 mpp worth of diplo chits. I say its a surprise because Sugar has advocated in the past using Axis diplo chits defensively. Germany spent 550mpp in research with Poland plunder (my guess would be Ground attack, advanced aircraft, tank).

The diplo move was not met initially by the allies, UK getting 300 mpp of research on turn 1 and France stockpiling its money. France eventually spent 150 mpp and 150mpp on diplochits on turn 2 and 3. While UK followed up with unit spendings.



Harun -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/21/2018 9:45:43 PM)

This should be interesting!



KorutZelva -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/21/2018 10:27:19 PM)

Apparently I banned the communists? I didn't mean to do that. [sm=00000289.gif]

Axis gets a diplo hit on Spain.



Sugar -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/21/2018 10:56:34 PM)

First diplo hit in Spain achieved. I highly recommend to be the first to invest into diplo, since you'll have to do it anyway. In this case I kept 2 chits to be able to react, if KZ decides to run his "uberdiplo", which is obviously the case. France has spent 2x150 MPPs, and GB 1x150. GB has also spent 250 MPPs into buying units, probably a fighter. This would mean he knows what he's doing, although I already noticed some minor flaws in his gameplay.

I didn't play 250 times SoE, but Call To Arms and SoE alltogether. The impression of being a robot might be misleading, I simply can't express myself in english very well, which I learnt in school 40 years ago and never had the chance to practise (if you don`t count listening to BFBS for most of my life).




KorutZelva -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/21/2018 11:20:06 PM)

December 1939...

I was happy when spain fired because that meant he had chits tied up and wouldn't be able to completely respond vs the country I'm targeting. It hasn't translated into any hits so far though... despite the fact he hasn't bought a single 150 chit yet.



Sugar -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 12:31:45 AM)

Feb. 40: now the target of KZ's uberdiplo becomes clear: Sovyet Union. German troops immediately are showing him the downside of his strategy by attacking the understrength Maginot Line, destroying 1 army and the fortification. Germany also puts a chit into SU.



KorutZelva -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 1:07:23 AM)

In image.

[image]http://farm1.staticflickr.com/868/26743724867_b9efbca6e1_b.jpg[/image]

An interesting angle of attack. Sugar committed two tanks for that attack piercing a hole of what is essentially the longest way to Paris due to bad terrain. Germany went heavy in tech and didn't get a lot of extra unit for France (which means the Commie ban blunder is not disastrous all things considered). There's probably only the gifted tank available for any northern push. There's a non-0% chance that he committed to killing that unit just because it kept beating back his probing attacks inflicting casualties left and right at no loss despite only being strength 6. [:D]

Germany grabs Lithuania. USSR readiness rises to 33%.



Sugar -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 1:24:13 AM)

Maybe the longer way to Paris, but shorter to the Med.. And even to Paris a safer route than along the coast. All the attacks had a prediction of 0:something, I would have done them anyway to gain xp, and the losses were not higher than expected.

This turn Strassbourg and Epinal fell into german hands, not much left over of the Maginot Line. A french HQ suffered 8 hits by bomber attacks. No air defense at all. A satisfying progress considering the early date of march 40.



KorutZelva -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 1:51:25 AM)

[image]http://farm1.staticflickr.com/866/40721102175_1d9b1f3101_b.jpg[/image]

April '40

Metz held despite Sugar burning a paradrop early in a desperate attempt to kill the unit. [:D]

Benelux enjoying the good times while it lasts.



Sugar -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 2:22:57 AM)

Ah, I always was wondering how a "burnt" para might look like.

Metz and Mulhouse fell into german hands this turn, 4 french armies, 2 corps and 1 HQ are already destroyed, only 19 units left over. The french armee de l'air is containing only hot air. Similarities to the statements of existing persons are just accidentally.




Ktonos -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 2:37:25 AM)

Lost me on the "burned" thingy. Is the unit destroyed, or merely that the Germans used an early drop?

Also SU on 33% with banning the communists?



Sugar -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 3:19:10 AM)

My paras are very well, thx for asking. I used one of them to take Epinal, and the other to speed him up; he left Hamburg just the turn before the dropping. You may watch him the hex north of Metz, he lost 1 point by dropping, and none in the fight.

KZ achieved 1 hit on SU, and I decided to take Lithuania. GB has invested 900 MPPs into diplo so far, replacing the hit. Germany spent 200 into Spain (achieving 1 hit), and 300 into Russia so far. I'm not too affraid of his uberdiplo.



KorutZelva -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 3:38:19 AM)

Re: Khotos Yeah, it was an early drop. Yepp commies were inadvertently banned... [sm=dizzy.gif]

Benelux will live into may. Maybe Germany has no plans for them. [8D]

The lack of benelux conquest also means that the Italians are still biding their time at 79%. While they sit on the sidelines, so are their diplochits...

Second USSR diplo hit - 43%, the minimum has been reached, any further hits are just gravy.

[image]http://farm1.staticflickr.com/787/27744988938_b8faa0d332_b.jpg[/image]

Don't cry for the French service men, they are doing their duty to the last. Better fight and die than to be bypassed. [:'(]

As for the Allied airforce, its service is needed elsewhere... [;)]




Ktonos -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 3:57:05 AM)

So it was indeed a Maginot major offensive and not a faint

I guess early game is like 1-1, France surrender at July the latest, but USSR with one foot into the party.

PS; I'love to see the Sea Lion or not Sea Lion poker game in this one.



KorutZelva -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 4:28:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ktonos

So it was indeed a Maginot major offensive and not a faint

I guess early game is like 1-1, France surrender at July the latest, but USSR with one foot into the party.

PS; I'love to see the Sea Lion or not Sea Lion poker game in this one.


A fair assessment. France wilts but there's plenty speed bumps on the way to Paris. However, I would consider hanging on to July when going UberDiplo a victory of sort. I believe, if he had taken the northern route, he'd surely be past Lille by now. Seems a steep price to pay to dodge a couple of % of US/USSR mobilisation...

Speaking of which... Third diplohit, USSR at 55%. (in May 1940!) [X(]

[image]http://farm1.staticflickr.com/852/39806804320_0ee4de0a02_b.jpg[/image]




Sugar -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 4:47:43 AM)

The intention wasn't to dodge the mob., but to get through the Maginot Line and to try if this could be a better and less risky way to take out France. It already saved 1 turn, I wouldn't had attacked the Low Countries during winter.

You were lucky so far, but it's not clear if it leads to any decisive benefit; it's not the first time I'm facing this strategy, and none of it suceeded so far. As we already discussed, you'll have to be lucky, otherwise the downsides will outweigh.



room -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 7:54:03 AM)

My first and only victory came through that strategy with about the same luck at this point in SU diplo hits (much better than in my turnament game aginst mika) with SU finally dowing the axis in DEC 40 ...
The good point about uber diplo is more reliant on luck than on my skills: good point for me [:D]

But here we have the skilled and versatile KZ against the machine Sugar... God send me some popcorn please pretty please [:)]



KorutZelva -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 10:57:54 AM)

June 8th

[image]http://farm1.staticflickr.com/935/41579518492_21001dd6d6_b.jpg[/image]

The intent might have been to take a route that's safer to his planes (debatable since you can still stay away from carriers with the northern route). But that route hasn't been kind to his tanks. At first he was nurturing the tanks XP... but with the clock ticking he eventually he threw caution in the wind and started attacking units in town... across rivers.

The dices have certainly been rolling my way so far (USSR at 140 mpp)... But Sugar played with fire.

1- Went tech heavy. An extra tank or two would have really expedited the process of beating the French.
2- Struck first diplo blood. Left less chits to respond baring cancelling his other chits at no refund. I've spent a lot of turns at 30%. [X(]
3- Maginot route. Despite what he says, it ain't the fastest way to the med. The fastest way to the med is to activate the Italians. The Italians are at 79% in June. [8|]



Sugar -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 2:32:47 PM)

Yes, french morale is higher than would have been otherwise, and the Italians refuse to move so far; I don`t recommend to repeat this. I don't agree with your perception on losses, there`s always some point the tanks have to be reinforced on their way and some rivers to cross, and all my units and HQs are gaining xp as quickly as expected.

I don`t feel the need to buy any unit at all for Fall Gelb, mostly there are too many of them, and it`s always better to buy them later than to lose the research race.



KorutZelva -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 6:57:28 PM)

June 30th
[image]http://farm1.staticflickr.com/855/40737593515_45b3c06c35_b.jpg[/image]

French goose is cooked. But might still require 2 turns in the oven. Germany snakes to Lilles hoping to trigger French morale events/Italy mobilisation but nothing fires and the meter is still at 79%.

When he says 'I don`t recommend to repeat this', that's robot talk for 'I eff up'. [:'(]

At this juncture this is the pretty much the best start one can hope vs a top tier Axis player. Germany HQ experience are inevitable in the battle of France and are not a win in itself. Even a mediocre France push will easily net someone two 3 pip HQs. Usually for france to last into July with uberdiplo (name copyright HarryBanana [;)]) you have to spend a fair amount of UK resources... this time it was managed at essentially no UK cost (well so far anyways!). I'll have some additional thoughts to share when France is gone for good.

That said, I don't believe I'll win mostly because I can't really offset 200+ pbem experience of meticulous unit management. It's a game that's won or lost in the air and admittedly I'm just about average in managing that aspect. Maybe we can run a tally of how many HQs I get sniped under my nose? [:D]



Sugar -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 8:53:18 PM)

You may consider it whatever you want, I still find it interesting every of your comments seems to worry about your opponent, instead of yourself.

I would expect you to consider a breaking through the Maginot Line to be a brave undertaking, it`s never been done before afaik, and it`s obviously the opposite of playing a robotic style. This is again showing a disrespect for your opponent, of which I thought you learnt during the past this ain`t very well regarded by other members of our Forum Community.







PvtBenjamin -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 9:25:45 PM)

Them's fightin' words..

KV isn't the one not highly regarded in the forum

You are confusing winning with being respected, big difference

Hope you guys are playing v12.02

[sm=duel.gif]



Ktonos -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 9:43:16 PM)

Sugar u exaggerate. Every AAR I've read every player gloats now and then, yourself included.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 9:56:54 PM)

Sugar gloat???


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO



PJL1973 -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 11:04:35 PM)

Not sure a big investment in diplomacy to get the Soviets on board is the best thing to do. Sure it gives then more MPPs faster, but they have so much to do to catch up, and I'm not sure if it's good to speed up their entry into the war if they are still under prepared.

Having said that, could be a good idea to invest in getting the USSR readiness higher once their mobilisation starts to go up due to the increased German presence on their border, as you know then Germany will be launching Barbarossa soon. Although it's a short window, 6 months max, but a lucky hit here and there could help.

As for the AAR, this is shaping up to be a excellent one, and can only help SC3 in general. I always consider the number of AARs in a games forum to be a good indicator of how much interest there is in a game.



KorutZelva -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 11:08:59 PM)

Chill Sugar, chill. Being called a robot is a pretty flattering tease all things considered! Remember Deep Blue beat Kasparov! [:D]

quote:

I would expect you to consider a breaking through the Maginot Line to be a brave undertaking.


Brave? Well... I called that it was a bad idea as soon as it happened. Explained why... and it happened just as I predicted. You should call me smart, no? [;)] But I am impressed you were willing to try something different. Even if its because the game is AARed and you don't want your favourite strategy documented. [8D]

quote:

I still find it interesting every of your comments seems to worry about your opponent, instead of yourself.


I'm not entirely sure what you meant. But I can more readily comment your moves because well... I can't really comment my own plans until its safe to. [;)]

quote:

Them's fightin' words..

KV isn't the one not highly regarded in the forum

You are confusing winning with being respected, big difference

Hope you guys are playing v12.02


I've actually received one direct message from someone cheering me on to slay the beast... I suspect it echoes the general sentiment of the forum. The people want the reign of terror to end. [:'(] Sorry guys, but don't get your hopes up! It's going to go all downhill from there. [:)]

We're not playing the v12.02 beta. This is why I haven't bothered countering a Spain diplo push. It's too easy to stay over 30%. If the the Axis wants to tie its diplochits on it, I prefer to wreak havoc elsewhere.



KorutZelva -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 11:19:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PJL1973

Not sure a big investment in diplomacy to get the Soviets on board is the best thing to do. Sure it gives then more MPPs faster, but they have so much to do to catch up, and I'm not sure if it's good to speed up their entry into the war if they are still under prepared.

Having said that, could be a good idea to invest in getting the USSR readiness higher once their mobilisation starts to go up due to the increased German presence on their border, as you know then Germany will be launching Barbarossa soon. Although it's a short window, 6 months max, but a lucky hit here and there could help.

As for the AAR, this is shaping up to be a excellent one, and can only help SC3 in general. I always consider the number of AARs in a games forum to be a good indicator of how much interest there is in a game.


A lot of top Axis player delay Barbarossa as much as they can, which usually means Autumn 41. The USSR collect so few mpp compared to Germany that they don't see the incentive to go earlier than when its mobilisation forces them to. The extra income helps the USSR jumps start its research effort but also forces the Axis to go Barbarossing earlier than they would wish. I wasn't planning to do uberdiplo when the game started but when it became apparent they Germany had tied its chits in Spain, I saw an opening.



room -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 11:37:22 PM)

Well I like to go for the unfavored one so I'm gonna be on team Sugar (not that it helps)! After all he beats me so until Mika does too... I can still convince myself I'm second best [:D]

Go Sugar go [;)]



PvtBenjamin -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 11:38:31 PM)

Let me give you a hint KV. He will put his entire Air Force in Northern Africa then DE 603.


" So David triumphed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone; without a sword in his hand he struck down the Philistine and killed him" Samuel





Ktonos -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (4/22/2018 11:44:55 PM)

I believe he goes all in with sea lion.



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