RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (Full Version)

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GiveWarAchance -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/1/2018 5:39:26 AM)

From my games, it seems Spain has a decent chance of joining the Axis. I had two games with Spain joining me without me invading the Morocco & Algiers but I did spend chits on it. I really like having Spain joining in but it does give the USA a nice big target to land in.



KorutZelva -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/1/2018 7:43:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GiveWarAchance

From my games, it seems Spain has a decent chance of joining the Axis. I had two games with Spain joining me without me invading the Morocco & Algiers but I did spend chits on it. I really like having Spain joining in but it does give the USA a nice big target to land in.


If you play the AI, they usually don't contest your diplotarget. It's a different matter in PBEM play.



Sugar -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/1/2018 8:24:18 AM)

quote:

Tourney result tells the story of a allied leaning.
Do you personally believe the Allies to have the edge? I don't. The coming changes will make it harder and more unlikely to get Spain into the Axis, and at generally higher consequences; I think that's better for balancing.

quote:

If you and others believe that the Axis could have operated 1000s of aircraft in Africa then we will have to agree to disagree.


Yes, I believe the Axis could supply the same amount of aircraft as the Allies theoretically and under certain preconditions, with the occupation of Malta being one of them. The Allies had undoubtly "thousands" of aircraft operating in NA:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunisian_Campaign#cite_note-Mitcham78-1

The Allies also captured more than 600 aircraft in Tunesia.

If you want to have a historical situation, you want another game. This is not how the SC series was meant to be since 2003.



GiveWarAchance -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/1/2018 4:42:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KorutZelva


quote:

ORIGINAL: GiveWarAchance

From my games, it seems Spain has a decent chance of joining the Axis. I had two games with Spain joining me without me invading the Morocco & Algiers but I did spend chits on it. I really like having Spain joining in but it does give the USA a nice big target to land in.


If you play the AI, they usually don't contest your diplotarget. It's a different matter in PBEM play.


The AI always fights my diplo and seems to score a lot more swings in opinions than I do like all the nations I care about like Sweden, Turkey, Finland, Spain and other stuff get fairly frequent opinion swings to allies. In most games I couldn't accomplish anything with the diplo chits. Most probably the AI has been improved a lot in patches since you played against it last.



Ktonos -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/2/2018 4:03:25 PM)

Is the game over?



KorutZelva -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/2/2018 4:06:50 PM)

All but, yes. [:D]

Allies expelled from France making a fortress out of London.

Axis about to conquer Turkey.

Germans offered 'generous' terms after taking Stalingrad.

But it's November 1943... so I'm just a couple of turns short of my new goal of lasting until 1944 so I had to refuse. [:'(]



Sugar -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/2/2018 4:37:37 PM)

quote:

Germans offered 'generous' terms after taking Stalingrad.


Wtf? I wasn't asked for that.

quote:

Is the game over?


A matter of time. Turkey fell after 2 turns, Murmansk is occupied, SU`s income down to 600; with the railway restored Axis' troops can operate from Narvik to Cairo, with all those nice ressources in Middle East expanding production.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/2/2018 4:39:50 PM)

So if two skilled players play and the Axis wins in 1943/44 its hard to argue that the game is tilted towards the Allies.



Ktonos -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/2/2018 4:49:21 PM)

With all due respect to KZ but Sugar is casually considered 1 step ahead of everyone and he constantly proves it.

I have played 30, I think, PBEMs, half with Allies, half with Axis. Lost 3 of my allied games, lost more than half of my axis games. I'd say its like Allied games: 12-3, Axis games: 6-8. Now it may be that between high skill Axis is better and between med skill Allies are better, but I really think that the game has a very fine balance between the two powers. There can never be a thing as absolute perfect.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/2/2018 4:55:35 PM)

I'm not arguing that the game significantly favors the Axis. I agree that its probably fairly close. Many argue it greatly favors Allies which I disagree with.

But its 1943, 1943!. Maybe they should switch sides, it would help answer a lot of questions.



GiveWarAchance -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/2/2018 5:17:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

I'm not arguing that the game significantly favors the Axis. I agree that its probably fairly close. Many argue it greatly favors Allies which I disagree with.

But its 1943, 1943!. Maybe they should switch sides, it would help answer a lot of questions.


Ya very good. If those two great titans switch sides, it would make for another nice game.

I know I'm just a worthless unwanted noob squawking from the sidelines, but my impression is that the game is nicely balanced, and a few extra allied victories here & there is a good thing considering historically the overwhelming advantages the allies had over poor beleaguered Germany. If I made a WW2 game, I would give the allies a strong late game advantage so Germany can either aggressively try to win in early war or grind out a long, heroic defense.



Elessar2 -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/2/2018 5:59:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KorutZelva

All but, yes. [:D]

Allies expelled from France making a fortress out of London.


I guess his tanks and tacs made short work of your invasion force? The Allied air was helpless to do anything?


The real question which must be answered-are there any valid counter-strategies to Sugar's usual Axis script?



KorutZelva -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/2/2018 6:31:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2


quote:

ORIGINAL: KorutZelva

All but, yes. [:D]

Allies expelled from France making a fortress out of London.


I guess his tanks and tacs made short work of your invasion force? The Allied air was helpless to do anything?


The real question which must be answered-are there any valid counter-strategies to Sugar's usual Axis script?



Something like that. I manage to evacuate the majority my units but once my tanks were culled it was a matter of time.

I would say what I used a viable 'counter-strategy'. I brought my own strategy down with poor unit management especially the air war (I only played 10 or so pbem games by now, remember!) but the principles used were sound. The main tweak I would do is to pursue Spy & Intel with all Allied power (well except France and Poland of course) and have the UK invest in long range flight.




Sugar -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/2/2018 6:45:16 PM)

quote:

I guess his tanks and tacs made short work of your invasion force?


I was able to place my units in favourable terrain/supply and also had the first strike for some reason.

quote:

The Allied air was helpless to do anything?


Allthough being outnumbered 3:2, my med. bombers could reach some of his fighters, while my fighters could reach his tac. bombers, destroying 3-4 each during the following 2 turns.

Having the first strike always leads into a dilemma to the opponent: should he stand and reinforce the surviving units or should he retreat, leaving the damaged units in bad shape?

quote:

The real question which must be answered-are there any valid counter-strategies to Sugar's usual Axis script?


Yes. [:D]




Harun -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/2/2018 6:57:20 PM)

Thought:

The Germans had zero units in France.

Why would supply be at scorched earth levels?

In real life, if Germany had zero occupation troops in France, and the allies walked in, I would not expect supply to be low. Who's blowing bridges and wrecking stuff?

What "fighting" is destroying port facilities?

I don't blame the game for this, its just a thought. The power of operational movement allows for zero garrison.



KorutZelva -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/2/2018 7:06:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harun

Thought:

The Germans had zero units in France.

Why would supply be at scorched earth levels?

In real life, if Germany had zero occupation troops in France, and the allies walked in, I would not expect supply to be low. Who's blowing bridges and wrecking stuff?

What "fighting" is destroying port facilities?

I don't blame the game for this, its just a thought. The power of operational movement allows for zero garrison.


In this one particular instance it's easy. The allies! [:D] I mistakenly used a strat bomber on paris, tanking my supply as my invasion begun. (tech 3 US tac bombers look so similar) That one mistake probably cost me thousands of mpp of extra damage in battle because of my units reduced readiness. [X(]

But I mean, if all of occupied France is held by a single garrison in Paris, I'm thinking the French could have liberated themselves without me. [:'(]



Sugar -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/2/2018 7:36:21 PM)

Same question during the start of Barbarossa, leaving nearly all towns and cities in western SU undefended.

Alltogether the Allied ground forces were to weak in numbers.



bullet911 -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/2/2018 7:48:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar
I was able to place my units in favourable terrain/supply and also had the first strike for some reason



hopefully its not just me that doesn't 100% understands this, or missed it if its been talked about before. But could you elaborate on "favourable terrain/supply" for your airforce
does it make much difference in attacking when placed in open terrain/hills/forests? obviously there attached to a HQ but say in Russian with the long range tech did you keep them at the few city's with supply 6 or did they work just as well with the towns a supply 5



Harun -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/2/2018 8:26:36 PM)

I use the NATO counters because of that exact issue! The 3D models are cool, but I'm not so good at telling them apart.



room -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/2/2018 8:27:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar


quote:

The real question which must be answered-are there any valid counter-strategies to Sugar's usual Axis script?


Yes. [:D]




Don't make me ask, I wannna seeee it [8D]



Sugar -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/2/2018 8:37:39 PM)

The air combat is following special rules; in opposite to ground forces the attack values of aircraft are high, but defense values are low. The terrain only influences strafing and bombing, the defender receives all the terrain boni (or mali in case of swamps/marsh). A tac. bomber can therefore increase its defence value significantly when placed in favourable terrain, depending on its lvl.

In general it's best to attack bombers by fighters, and fighters by bombers.

quote:

Don't make me ask, I wannna seeee it


I also won all my Allied games, and of course I could show you, but didn't we play already?




KorutZelva -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/2/2018 9:19:47 PM)

April '44, Fortress London [:'(]

[image]http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1760/42470644772_984d849147_b.jpg[/image]






room -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/2/2018 9:53:03 PM)

quote:

opposite to ground forces the attack


We did but you had the axis and anyway I could not realise this strategy with the axis at my leveL.

I meant, i wanna see it against someone else [8D]



Harun -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/3/2018 12:22:12 AM)

The tip about the malus of swamps is very useful!

You can even use fighters to attack a HQ in a swamp and get a chance for damage. Soviet HQ near Leningrad on a swamp hex.



Taxman66 -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/3/2018 3:25:02 AM)

I think swamps are safe (or at least 'safer') if you fortify them.



vonRocko -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/3/2018 1:56:35 PM)

I just want to say Thanks for AAR guys. I learned much from this.[:)]



KorutZelva -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/3/2018 9:20:27 PM)

One thing I'm realising now is that is that London wasn't in immediate danger even after Stalingrad fell. The protracted air war that is being fought over London has been going on a while now.

Sugar is correct when he said that my D-day landing was short on land unit. I should have held off landing for one more year to have enough gear to land. In the east, when the tech disparity got too big I should have evacuated Stalingrad to protect my army and maintain a credible threat there. [:)]



KorutZelva -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/3/2018 11:59:38 PM)

It seems my fighter don't scramble to defend my planes if I have AA that activates. Is this WAD? [&:]



Taxman66 -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/4/2018 1:42:49 AM)

Yes, AA units take priority over fighters. Though it's not stated anywhere.

I'm not sure what the best option is for defense.



Harrybanana -> RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) (6/5/2018 12:12:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ktonos

I have played 30, I think, PBEMs, half with Allies, half with Axis. Lost 3 of my allied games, lost more than half of my axis games. I'd say its like Allied games: 12-3, Axis games: 6-8. Now it may be that between high skill Axis is better and between med skill Allies are better, but I really think that the game has a very fine balance between the two powers. There can never be a thing as absolute perfect.


My own experience was different. My record with the Allies was something like 7-3, while my record with the Axis was 4-0. But I don't have a serious issue with game balancing. The winner of most games will be the player with the higher skill regardless of which side he plays. If the opponents have equal skill the Axis will probably win if he has high experience, otherwise the Allied player will probably win. My issue is with how the developers have chosen to balance the game.



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