Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (Full Version)

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FonjoFarley -> Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/13/2018 4:32:13 PM)

I'm playing the Axis in a game that is up to Sep-Oct 1941. Denmark was declared war on and conquered in 1939. Last turn (Jul-Aug 1941) I declared war on Iceland and invaded with a Div into Reykjavik. The US had not yet selected the entry option 'Occupy Greenland and Iceland' and were not yet at war. They did declare war successfully the impulse after I landed in Iceland. Following the DOW the US has now taken control of both Minors and my Inf Div is sat atop a Reykjavik hex with a US flag on it.

Am I right in thinking that this option should not have triggered following the US DOW? The rules seem fairly clear on the subject - 'You can only choose this entry option if an Axis major power has declared war on Denmark and no Axis land unit is in Greenland or Iceland'.

Thanks in advance



paulderynck -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/14/2018 5:31:19 AM)

Yes you are correct. If you need the hex control fixed you can post a saved game and one of the beta testers can try and fix it.

Just curious - was a DoW and US entry roll done when you landed in Iceland? Since these are territories that go neutral when their parent minor is conquered, the rules say you have to DoW them in order to land there.



Centuur -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/14/2018 4:52:24 PM)

Since this is a very unusual situation, can you post a gamesave just before the US DoW out of the autosaves in the tech section (zip it and upload it in the forums)? This will be usefull for fixing this bug...



FonjoFarley -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/14/2018 8:03:01 PM)

Yes indeed, I was required to declare war and it resulted in a US entry roll.
Thanks for the rule confirmation. I think we are ok to proceed without a fix but we might change our mind on that so thanks for the suggestion.
BTW I should have mentioned that we are playing a netplay game.

Cheers



paulderynck -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/14/2018 11:24:31 PM)

Ah. In that case it would be necessary to post your and your opponent's save from the same phase prior to the US DoW, in order for this bug to be tackled.



ACMW -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/15/2018 4:22:42 AM)

Is that correct? I thought that when GER DoWed DEN then DEN and its minors joined an Allied Nation. Normally you’d choose CMW. When DEN was incompletely conquered, it’s minors fought on with CMW, which could garrison these or not. So then there’d be no DoW, no US entry and no -1 for inherent defenders. In fact, I think this is what happened historically.

Am I wrong?

Cheers

Adrian



paulderynck -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/15/2018 6:20:54 AM)

No, because they are territories, not minors like NEI, Belgian Congo and the Portuguese and Spanish minors. See 13.7.1 under Complete Conquest (which it is when Copenhagen is taken because Denmark has no aligned minors - only those territories).

"Each remaining territory and conquered home country it controls becomes controlled by the major power with the greatest influence in that country or territory (see incomplete conquest above). If no-one has any influence there, that territory or home country becomes neutral. Each neutral territory may subsequently be declared war on as if it were a minor country."

Under the "influence" provision it is possible for the CW or France to get units into them before the end of the same turn that Germany DoW's Denmark since for that short period they are at war with Germany and allied with the CW or France, but this is usually not done because it's expected the USA will select the US Entry option.



ACMW -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/15/2018 8:52:07 PM)

Thanks Paul. I had overlooked the status of Iceland.



ACMW -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/16/2018 4:50:15 AM)

Sorry, Paul, a couple of follow up questions if I may.

I fear we may have been playing this wrongly for years.

1. We generally set up DEN CPs in Iceland. I take it that is ok?

2. Do they become neutral if CMW has not landed a unit in Iceland before the Danes surrender?

3. Is this the same if they start their longer ranged SCS there? That is, it reverts to neutrality.

4. What if they sail out of Iceland? Say to UK. What if they stay at sea?

Cheers

Adrian



Orm -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/16/2018 6:09:51 AM)

1) Yes. As long as at least half the Danish force is set-up in Denmark.
2) No, they remain controlled by the MP that got controlled by Denmark. The ships actually becomes MP ships at this point. They are treated as overrun.
3) Yes, the presence of Danish SCS has no impact on this and Iceland will still go neutral.
4) Regardless where the on-map Danish ships are they will change their nationality to the controlling MP at the moment of conquest. Although they will be overrun if they were in a hex that is now enemy controlled, or neutral.



ACMW -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/16/2018 8:34:21 AM)

Thanks again, Paul.

Adrian



paulderynck -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/16/2018 5:36:39 PM)

You're welcome! [:)]

One thing about those CPs - due to the phasing of end of turn versus conquest, if they don't leave Iceland or Greenland then they get overrun and rebase but are then face down until the end of the upcoming turn (unless re-orged).



michaelbaldur -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/16/2018 11:25:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

You're welcome! [:)]

One thing about those CPs - due to the phasing of end of turn versus conquest, if they don't leave Iceland or Greenland then they get overrun and rebase but are then face down until the end of the upcoming turn (unless re-orged).

no

the hexes are neutral, not enemy controlled

the naval units are not overrun, they just stay in that neutral port. then the controller can move them when he wishes.






michaelbaldur -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/16/2018 11:30:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

1) Yes. As long as at least half the Danish force is set-up in Denmark.
2) No, they remain controlled by the MP that got controlled by Denmark. The ships actually becomes MP ships at this point. They are treated as overrun.
3) Yes, the presence of Danish SCS has no impact on this and Iceland will still go neutral.
4) Regardless where the on-map Danish ships are they will change their nationality to the controlling MP at the moment of conquest. Although they will be overrun if they were in a hex that is now enemy controlled, or neutral.



2) no they are not overrun, they are not in enemy hexes, they are in neutral hexes (in iceland )



paulderynck -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/17/2018 4:55:06 AM)

Actually, come to think of it, the CPs would be CW and per the influence rule, the CW would control the territory.

Under Complete Conquest: "All naval units of a minor country remain under the control of their controlling major power. Treat them as units of that major power (British in the case of the Commonwealth)."

and: "Each remaining territory and conquered home country it controls becomes controlled by the major power with the greatest influence in that country or territory (see incomplete conquest above)."

Under Incomplete Conquest: "Use this priority to determine who has the greatest influence: ... 3. Whoever occupied the territory’s last city or port."

The US entry action to occupy them even has a provision for what happens to other Allied units in them when the option is chosen.



Orm -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/17/2018 7:42:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Actually, come to think of it, the CPs would be CW and per the influence rule, the CW would control the territory.

Under Complete Conquest: "All naval units of a minor country remain under the control of their controlling major power. Treat them as units of that major power (British in the case of the Commonwealth)."

and: "Each remaining territory and conquered home country it controls becomes controlled by the major power with the greatest influence in that country or territory (see incomplete conquest above)."

Under Incomplete Conquest: "Use this priority to determine who has the greatest influence: ... 3. Whoever occupied the territory’s last city or port."

The US entry action to occupy them even has a provision for what happens to other Allied units in them when the option is chosen.

Are you suggesting that a CP, or a SCS, can occupy a city or a port?

This interpretation changes how MWIF currently works.

I remain unconvinced and claim that MWIF is correct and that Iceland go neutral and that any CPs there are forced to rebase.

Edit: I found this example that I think supports my position.

Cut from RAC: 13.7.1 Conquest
...
Complete conquest
...
Example: Germany is conquered while Germany still controls a conquered Norway. Because Germany
controls no aligned home countries, Germany has been completely conquered. All German land and aircraft units
are removed from the game. Norway reverts to neutrality because no major power has any influence there. All
German naval units become controlled by Japan. You roll dice for any that are now in Allied controlled hexes. Any
that survive must rebase. Unless there are Japanese controlled ports within double the range of these units, they will
be destroyed.[/I]


In the example Norway reverts to neutral even though there were Japanese ships in Norway. (Formerly German ships that converted to Japanese control)



Orm -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/17/2018 7:50:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

1) Yes. As long as at least half the Danish force is set-up in Denmark.
2) No, they remain controlled by the MP that got controlled by Denmark. The ships actually becomes MP ships at this point. They are treated as overrun.
3) Yes, the presence of Danish SCS has no impact on this and Iceland will still go neutral.
4) Regardless where the on-map Danish ships are they will change their nationality to the controlling MP at the moment of conquest. Although they will be overrun if they were in a hex that is now enemy controlled, or neutral.



2) no they are not overrun, they are not in enemy hexes, they are in neutral hexes (in iceland )


You are correct. They are not overrun. They are forced to rebase.



Orm -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/17/2018 7:53:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

You're welcome! [:)]

One thing about those CPs - due to the phasing of end of turn versus conquest, if they don't leave Iceland or Greenland then they get overrun and rebase but are then face down until the end of the upcoming turn (unless re-orged).

no

the hexes are neutral, not enemy controlled

the naval units are not overrun, they just stay in that neutral port. then the controller can move them when he wishes.


No, they can not remain in a neutral hex. Although you are right in that they are not overrun. They are simply forced to rebase.

I've never considered the difference because I never had any disorganized ships in a port that became neutral so being forced to rebase and being overrun was the same result. I am sorry about that. Thank you Michael for pointing out the difference. [:)]



ACMW -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/17/2018 8:12:41 AM)

Yep. So that looks correct. Iceland goes neutral unless CMW lands a unit. DEN SCSs & CPs remain CMW and displace. And thanks for your earlier contribution which I missed.

Another question. I assume that if Iceland is GER controlled then USA can’t use US Entry Option 7 to occupy Greenland. This is a Bill Clintonesque question on ‘and’ and ‘or’. But not ‘is’.



Orm -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/17/2018 8:35:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ACMW

Another question. I assume that if Iceland is GER controlled then USA can’t use US Entry Option 7 to occupy Greenland. This is a Bill Clintonesque question on ‘and’ and ‘or’. But not ‘is’.

USA can play US Entry Option 7 to occupy Greenland and Iceland if Germany has no German land unit there (if it is German controlled matters not). But if Germany has a land unit in Iceland then US can not play the option to just occupy Greenland. It is both of Iceland and Greenland, or neither.

Cut from RAC:
7. Occupy Greenland & Iceland - You can declare control of Greenland and Iceland during any future Allied
declaration of war step. [The US Entry Options Occupy Greenland Iceland and Occupy Northern Ireland by the US
are implemented as soon as they are chosen: in the end-of-turn US Entry phase.] When you do, move any other
Allied units in Greenland or Iceland to the nearest hex their major power controls. You can only choose this entry
option if an Axis major power has declared war on Denmark and no Axis land unit is in Greenland or Iceland.
[Clarification. This option can be taken even if the Axis have conquered Greenland and Iceland, provided the above
conditions are met - Aug. 24, 1998.]



michaelbaldur -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/17/2018 11:36:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

You're welcome! [:)]

One thing about those CPs - due to the phasing of end of turn versus conquest, if they don't leave Iceland or Greenland then they get overrun and rebase but are then face down until the end of the upcoming turn (unless re-orged).

no

the hexes are neutral, not enemy controlled

the naval units are not overrun, they just stay in that neutral port. then the controller can move them when he wishes.


No, they can not remain in a neutral hex. Although you are right in that they are not overrun. They are simply forced to rebase.

I've never considered the difference because I never had any disorganized ships in a port that became neutral so being forced to rebase and being overrun was the same result. I am sorry about that. Thank you Michael for pointing out the difference. [:)]


the game is coded that way, as it make no difference if they stay in the hex.



Orm -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/17/2018 11:49:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

You're welcome! [:)]

One thing about those CPs - due to the phasing of end of turn versus conquest, if they don't leave Iceland or Greenland then they get overrun and rebase but are then face down until the end of the upcoming turn (unless re-orged).

no

the hexes are neutral, not enemy controlled

the naval units are not overrun, they just stay in that neutral port. then the controller can move them when he wishes.


No, they can not remain in a neutral hex. Although you are right in that they are not overrun. They are simply forced to rebase.

I've never considered the difference because I never had any disorganized ships in a port that became neutral so being forced to rebase and being overrun was the same result. I am sorry about that. Thank you Michael for pointing out the difference. [:)]


the game is coded that way, as it make no difference if they stay in the hex.

It can make a difference. If they are rebasing, then I think Axis forces are allowed to try and intercept them.

And if they are re-based it will take oil to reorganize them.



michaelbaldur -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/17/2018 2:06:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

You're welcome! [:)]

One thing about those CPs - due to the phasing of end of turn versus conquest, if they don't leave Iceland or Greenland then they get overrun and rebase but are then face down until the end of the upcoming turn (unless re-orged).

no

the hexes are neutral, not enemy controlled

the naval units are not overrun, they just stay in that neutral port. then the controller can move them when he wishes.


No, they can not remain in a neutral hex. Although you are right in that they are not overrun. They are simply forced to rebase.

I've never considered the difference because I never had any disorganized ships in a port that became neutral so being forced to rebase and being overrun was the same result. I am sorry about that. Thank you Michael for pointing out the difference. [:)]


the game is coded that way, as it make no difference if they stay in the hex.

It can make a difference. If they are rebasing, then I think Axis forces are allowed to try and intercept them.

And if they are re-based it will take oil to reorganize them.


the rules clearly say that the only are forced to rebase if they are in enemy hexes.

war ships often stayed in neutral ports.



Orm -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/17/2018 2:37:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

the rules clearly say that the only are forced to rebase if they are in enemy hexes.

war ships often stayed in neutral ports.


Could you, please, show me where the rules clearly say that they are only forced to rebase when they are in enemy hexes.

And I would love to base my U-boats, and submarines, in neutral ports. Like Spain.




Centuur -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/17/2018 2:56:05 PM)

First: here is the rule in incomplete conquest for determining influence:

RAW:

Use this priority to determine who has the greatest influence:
1. Whoever controls most factories in the home country (with the
capital counting as an additional 3 factories for this calculation).
2. Whoever has the highest garrison value (see 13.1) in the home
country.
3. Whoever occupied the home country’s last factory or capital
city.


Further in the rules on conquest, one finds these rules:

RAW:

Each remaining territory and conquered home country it controls
becomes controlled by the major power with the greatest influence in
that country or territory (see incomplete conquest above). If no-one
has any influence there, that territory or home country becomes
neutral. Each neutral territory may subsequently be declared war on as
if it were a minor country.
All naval units now in enemy controlled hexes are treated as if they
had been overrun (see 11.11.6). This means they can be captured,
destroyed or forced to rebase.

This means two things. First, naval units don't have a garrison value, so only naval units don't count for getting influence. Than there is the second part. What's an "enemy controlled hex".

The answer to me seems pretty clear. In the rules section on control, one finds this text:

RAW:

Control of a hex changes when:
(...)
• an island, territory, minor country or major power is conquered
(see 13.7.1) or liberated (see 13.7.5);

Does this mean that control of a hex changes the moment a territory becomes neutral due to it's home country getting completely conquered? I believe this to be the case. And if so, than that particular hex suddenly becomes "enemy controlled". A neutral power doesn't want you to be present in their port, so you are forced to leave. Therefore: you have to rebase immediately.








Orm -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/17/2018 3:04:31 PM)

The example in the rulebook cover this as well.

Example: Germany is conquered while Germany still controls a conquered Norway. Because Germany
controls no aligned home countries, Germany has been completely conquered. All German land and aircraft units
are removed from the game. Norway reverts to neutrality because no major power has any influence there. All
German naval units become controlled by Japan. You roll dice for any that are now in Allied controlled hexes. Any
that survive must rebase. Unless there are Japanese controlled ports within double the range of these units, they will
be destroyed.

In the example Germany is conquered and Norway go neutral. There where German ships in Norway that becomes Japanese. And the Japanese ships are forced to rebase from neutral Norway.



michaelbaldur -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/17/2018 3:38:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

The example in the rulebook cover this as well.

Example: Germany is conquered while Germany still controls a conquered Norway. Because Germany
controls no aligned home countries, Germany has been completely conquered. All German land and aircraft units
are removed from the game. Norway reverts to neutrality because no major power has any influence there. All
German naval units become controlled by Japan. You roll dice for any that are now in Allied controlled hexes. Any
that survive must rebase. Unless there are Japanese controlled ports within double the range of these units, they will
be destroyed.[/I]

In the example Germany is conquered and Norway go neutral. There where German ships in Norway that becomes Japanese. And the Japanese ships are forced to rebase from neutral Norway.



norway is neutral, not allied controlled hexes

the example mean, the naval units in conquered germany



Orm -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/17/2018 3:42:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

The example in the rulebook cover this as well.

Example: Germany is conquered while Germany still controls a conquered Norway. Because Germany
controls no aligned home countries, Germany has been completely conquered. All German land and aircraft units
are removed from the game. Norway reverts to neutrality because no major power has any influence there. All
German naval units become controlled by Japan. You roll dice for any that are now in Allied controlled hexes. Any
that survive must rebase. Unless there are Japanese controlled ports within double the range of these units, they will
be destroyed.

In the example Germany is conquered and Norway go neutral. There where German ships in Norway that becomes Japanese. And the Japanese ships are forced to rebase from neutral Norway.



norway is neutral, not allied controlled hexes



Yes. You do not roll any dice for the ships in Norway. I find it interesting that you ignored the second part: "Any that survive must rebase. Unless there are Japanese controlled ports within double the range of these units, they will be destroyed"



michaelbaldur -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/17/2018 3:47:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

The example in the rulebook cover this as well.

Example: Germany is conquered while Germany still controls a conquered Norway. Because Germany
controls no aligned home countries, Germany has been completely conquered. All German land and aircraft units
are removed from the game. Norway reverts to neutrality because no major power has any influence there. All
German naval units become controlled by Japan. You roll dice for any that are now in Allied controlled hexes. Any
that survive must rebase. Unless there are Japanese controlled ports within double the range of these units, they will
be destroyed.

In the example Germany is conquered and Norway go neutral. There where German ships in Norway that becomes Japanese. And the Japanese ships are forced to rebase from neutral Norway.



norway is neutral, not allied controlled hexes



Yes. You do not roll any dice for the ships in Norway. I find it interesting that you ignored the second part: "Any that survive must rebase. Unless there are Japanese controlled ports within double the range of these units, they will be destroyed"



yes survive the dice roll.

a naval unit you dont roll, cant survive. what does the units in neutral hexes survive ???



Orm -> RE: Question re US Option Occupy Greenland & Iceland (6/17/2018 3:50:51 PM)

So you are saying that the example completely ignores to tell us what happens with the ships in Norway?!

I claim that it is pretty clear. If the ships are in Allied controlled hexes they are rolled for, and those that survive are rebased. And if they are not in Allied controlled hexes they are not rolled for and are then rebased.



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