RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (Full Version)

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KorutZelva -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 1:29:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Just as bad is the fact that the Axis can force uber diplo as much as the Allies can.

It will delay German investment in either Tech or units, but it will cripple the UK in both.

As I said before it's also has a heavy roulette factor. Whoever invests first gets a turn ar the chance wheel without a counter balance from the opposing side. With Plunder Germany can invest in more chits in a single turn than the UK can match. France can match/play too but the price is devistating to her defences and in the end only temporary.


France is only temporary anyway. [;)] For better or worst, they made Sealion relatively easy and relatively not crippling. The consequence of that is that you don't have to invest as much in UK's defense than what people usually do. This overspending (that people assume is mandatory*) can give the impression that the UK is hopelessly poor and incapable.

*Useless upgrade of UK fleet would also fall in this category but some players can't help themselves.



Sugar -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 1:44:19 PM)

To be fair, you also lost against HarryBanana, and I didn't entice Franco allthough I could.

The jackpot is a 30% hit at USSR, hehe. It`s a viable strategy for underdogs, but I never tried as Axis.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 1:44:55 PM)

The game was over in '43 (he controlled all of Africa & USSR) you barely put a scratch on him. Its fine he's a great player but don't get all full of yourself it wasn't that great of a defense.


You were the one starting the trash talking like it takes some genius to swap chits. You really aren't as smart as you think you are. If you think spending thousands on major diplo is fun great I think it trivializes the game.

In my case I am winning handily and why would I spend 2 additional French chits when he hadn't. After France falls he has a year of advantage I can't match.

I have no interest in playing another game of diplo war, if you would like to limit major country diplo to 1 chit per country I'll take the Allies what do you say. I bet I can do better than you did against Sugar.






KorutZelva -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 1:55:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

To be fair, you also lost against HarryBanana, and I didn't entice Franco allthough I could.

The jackpot is a 30% hit at USSR, hehe. It`s a viable strategy for underdogs, but I never tried as Axis.


Yeah, at my second PBEM game playing vs an experienced player. And he almost gave up. [;)]

The 'jackpot' was achieved was when you got outmanoeuvred because you had invested in Spain and went for the USSR. [;)]



KorutZelva -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 2:04:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

The game was over in '43 (he controlled all of Africa & USSR) you barely put a scratch on him. Its fine he's a great player but don't get all full of yourself it wasn't that great of a defense.


You were the one starting the trash talking like it takes some genius to swap chits. You really aren't as smart as you think you are. If you think spending thousands on major diplo is fun great I think it trivializes the game.

In my case I am winning handily and why would I spend 2 additional French chits when he hadn't. After France falls he has a year of advantage I can't match.

I have no interest in playing another game of diplo war, if you would like to limit major country diplo to 1 chit per country I'll take the Allies what do you say. I bet I can do better than you did against Sugar.



You state its impossible to defend against it. I state it's possible. I offer to show you. You chicken out.

What I am missing here?

Each time you fail at something you assume the game is at fault. [:D] Doesn't take a genius to Diplo right, I am amazed how many people 'insist' at being bad at it though. [;)]



PvtBenjamin -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 2:06:42 PM)

quote:

I have no interest in playing another game of diplo war, if you would like to limit major country diplo to 1 chit per country I'll take the Allies what do you say. I bet I can do better than you did against Sugar.



My challenge stands

Chicken really? Haven't heard that since high school which was a very long time ago.



KorutZelva -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 2:13:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

quote:

I have no interest in playing another game of diplo war, if you would like to limit major country diplo to 1 chit per country I'll take the Allies what do you say. I bet I can do better than you did against Sugar.



Let me type slower for you.

Your statement is that its impossible to stop in the base game without chickenshitty house rule. I state it's possible to stop without chickenshitty house rule.

Hey why you mind the diplowar so much if won't be on the receiving end of it? If it's impossible to stop as you say it is, that's an easy meal of crow to dish out isn't not? Why are you quaking in your boots? Let's test it out for Bill's benefit. Best way to convince him. [:D]



PvtBenjamin -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 2:17:49 PM)

I was just thinking if I took the Allies I could show you the correct way to play the game (without spending a fortune on diplo) so you don't get slapped silly for the entire community to see in the next AAR.

I have no interest in another game that spends thousands on Major Diplo. Its a shortcoming of the game that should be changed.




PvtBenjamin -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 2:28:59 PM)

KZ

In the future if you disagree with a suggestion just state why supported by facts. The personal attacks questioning a persons intellect, game playing ability and courage are of a person of poor character.




KorutZelva -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 2:36:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

I was just thinking if I took the Allies I could show you the correct way to play the game (without spending a fortune on diplo) so you don't get slapped silly for the entire community to see in the next AAR.

I have no interest in another game that spends thousands on Major Diplo. Its a shortcoming of the game that should be changed.




I'm sorry, can you translate that? I'm not fluent in chicken. [:'(]

It might comes as a surprise but if you believe a thing really hard, it doesn't make it true. If your answer of a diverging opinion is 'Didn't you read what I said? It's impossible end of story' Well sorry to break this to you mate: You ain't considered a grand SC3 expert, there's people out there that can do the things you can't or refuse to learn to do. You might counter saying 'well you ain't either'. Perhaps? But I'm at least I'm offering to collect empirical evidence to settle the matter.

If the aggravation of facing someone has a strategy that exposes that cracks in yours is too much your ego, you can learn to counter it or go back to playing the AI. Or lose and cry a river and lobby to change the game to your particular playstyle I guess. ;)



PvtBenjamin -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 2:43:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

KZ

In the future if you disagree with a suggestion just state why supported by facts. The personal attacks questioning a persons intellect, game playing ability and courage are of a person of poor character.






KorutZelva -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 2:56:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

KZ

In the future if you disagree with a suggestion just state why supported by facts. The personal attacks questioning a persons intellect, game playing ability and courage are of a person of poor character.




That's just the thing. Saying a thing is impossible and 'backing it up' with a game where he only had 4 diplo chits on is the same as 'It's impossible to defend egypt, I had 2 garrison and a HQ AND THE GERMANS PANZERS JUST WALKED ALL OVER THEM'.

Obviously I disagree with your opinion, from experience in dealing with the said situation (from both sides). For all your talk on facts, you're very much like the bible Thomas and didn't accept examples from AARs to show that the allied diplo situation is not hopeless, hence the idea in showing you first hand.

The reason you are refusing is that your argument has no (chicken) leg to stand on. [;)] My initial point stands: you mishandled one game and then cried wolf.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 3:21:26 PM)

Ok one last time. I'm winning the game so its not really hishandled. I (and others) think being able to invest so much in major diplo warps the game. The game effectively becomes a battle of diplo chits vs research strategy etc. If you disagree that is fine.

Maybe I'm incorrect. After France falls if the Germans & Italians invest all they can in USSR diplo can the Brits equal (negate) that investment and prevent the USSR from swinging towards the Axis and to zero?

Honestly I haven't invested the time to be proficient at the Axis, I'm retired and am lazy. I am much better at the Allies so my challenge stands. That said I don't want to knowingly engage in a game that each side is going to invest significantly on major diplo, I find it trivial.




KorutZelva -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 3:39:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

Ok one last time. I'm winning the game so its not really hishandled. I (and others) think being able to invest so much in major diplo warps the game. The game effectively becomes a battle of diplo chits vs research strategy etc. If you disagree that is fine.

Maybe I'm incorrect. After France falls if the Germans & Italians invest all they can in USSR diplo can the Brits equal (negate) that investment and prevent the USSR from swinging towards the Axis and to zero?

Honestly I haven't invested the time to be proficient at the Axis, I'm retired and am lazy. I am much better at the Allies so my challenge stands. That said I don't want to knowingly engage in a game that each side is going to invest significantly on major diplo, I find it trivial.




So it's 'impossible to stop' but you apparently stopped it yourself. Frankly that's hysterical. [:D]

Diplo is balanced. The end.



AltarisGreyhawke -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 3:43:41 PM)

I wasn't really arguing originally whether it's "balanced" or not, it's just stupid in the context of WW2. But then again, this isn't really a great war simulator to begin with, so, meh, whatever. It's more like Axis & Allies Extra-Extra Edition.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 3:49:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KorutZelva


quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

Ok one last time. I'm winning the game so its not really hishandled. I (and others) think being able to invest so much in major diplo warps the game. The game effectively becomes a battle of diplo chits vs research strategy etc. If you disagree that is fine.

Maybe I'm incorrect. After France falls if the Germans & Italians invest all they can in USSR diplo can the Brits equal (negate) that investment and prevent the USSR from swinging towards the Axis and to zero?

Honestly I haven't invested the time to be proficient at the Axis, I'm retired and am lazy. I am much better at the Allies so my challenge stands. That said I don't want to knowingly engage in a game that each side is going to invest significantly on major diplo, I find it trivial.




So it's 'impossible to stop' but you apparently stopped it yourself. Frankly that's hysterical. [:D]

Diplo is balanced. The end.





You didn't answer my question.



KorutZelva -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 4:03:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

KZ did you read my post. It is impossible to defend against as Allies.



Say what?

You forgot to retroactively change the text on that one.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 4:10:50 PM)

quote:

Maybe I'm incorrect. After France falls if the Germans & Italians invest all they can in USSR diplo can the Brits equal (negate) that investment and prevent the USSR from swinging towards the Axis and to zero?



Above is the question. Please no your an idiot, I'm great at the game, your a chicken straight answer to the question.



Elessar2 -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 4:30:04 PM)

Defenders of the strategy really need to explicitly outline exactly what form a diplomacy "chit" would have taken in the actual war.

I think Diplo should be turned off, and more decision events added to compensate. Right now chits all happen in a vague contextless vacuum.

[Dec '39]

quote:

Some discussions have been made between Russian culinary experts and yours. Stalin wants 150 MPP's worth of brie goat haggis, to be delivered over the next 6 turns (25/turn), in exchange for going +5-15% Allies. Do you agree (YES) to said trade of said delightful Scottish delicacies, or (NO) refuse the offer?



crispy131313 -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 4:38:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

Defenders of the strategy really need to explicitly outline exactly what form a diplomacy "chit" would have taken in the actual war.

I think Diplo should be turned off, and more decision events added to compensate. Right now chits all happen in a vague contextless vacuum.




If only there was scenario already available like this [8|]

But in all seriousness we will not see an overhaul of the diplomatic game. At some point the designer's need to focus on next game to stay in business. We have had 1.5 years of tweaks already.



AltarisGreyhawke -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 4:58:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

Defenders of the strategy really need to explicitly outline exactly what form a diplomacy "chit" would have taken in the actual war.

I think Diplo should be turned off, and more decision events added to compensate. Right now chits all happen in a vague contextless vacuum.

[Dec '39]

quote:

Some discussions have been made between Russian culinary experts and yours. Stalin wants 150 MPP's worth of brie goat haggis, to be delivered over the next 6 turns (25/turn), in exchange for going +5-15% Allies. Do you agree (YES) to said trade of said delightful Scottish delicacies, or (NO) refuse the offer?



Amen to this...



Taxman66 -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 5:26:07 PM)

Even if (major power) Diplo is balanced (* A premise I don't currently agree with *), it has 2 other issues/flaws:

1. It skews to whichever side implements it first; which in and of itself is reasonable but this is combined with #2 below.

2. There is only 1 valid strategic choice if your opponent initiates it; and that is to counter. Failure to do so is disaster. This supersedes any other plan(s) you may have.



Sugar -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 5:43:51 PM)

quote:

There is only 1 valid strategic choice if your opponent initiates it; and that is to counter.


And the reason for this is, hits are too high. Up to possibly 30%, and that's gamechanging.



AltarisGreyhawke -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 6:10:37 PM)

There's an insanely easy fix to all this though... just limit the number of diplo chits for majors. Like, this is so ridiculously simple, I don't get the need to even argue it. But yeah, it is what it is, I'll know what to watch for next time.



Taxman66 -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 6:30:51 PM)

Sugar, my understanding is that major powers diplo chit hits are not subject to the small chance of a double effect. So no 30%, but you can still get 15% (iirc).

Even till there is no other valid counter.



Sugar -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 7:07:08 PM)

Yes, you're right; then the jackpot is to achieve a 15% hit at the first chit on a major. Still gambling.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 9:35:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AltarisGreyhawke

There's an insanely easy fix to all this though... just limit the number of diplo chits for majors. Like, this is so ridiculously simple, I don't get the need to even argue it. But yeah, it is what it is, I'll know what to watch for next time.




Yes its that easy.



KorutZelva -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 10:52:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

quote:

Maybe I'm incorrect. After France falls if the Germans & Italians invest all they can in USSR diplo can the Brits equal (negate) that investment and prevent the USSR from swinging towards the Axis and to zero?



Above is the question. Please no your an idiot, I'm great at the game, your a chicken straight answer to the question.



It's mathematically possible but unlikely. Provided the allies picked the events to keep USSR readiness high. The average diplo hit for a major would be 11% (IIRC). At 15% chance to trigger the hit, it would take 6,66 turns on average to fire. To wipe off all USSR readiness post-france you'd need about 4 diplo hit. To wipe everything it would take almost 2 years (provided USSR readiness doesn't go up in the interval, which it will).

To get it to 0% in any reliable fashion, the Axis would have to score hits when France is still around. I suspect the Axis did in your game and these hits were entirely avoidable while you had the diplochit advantage (and then) parity.



Sugar -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/14/2018 11:27:53 PM)

But you`re not playing this sort of game to get average chances, KZ. It`s a high risk gamble, the success might be huge, and if you don't succeed you`re screwed.

Allthough I`m not against it (would also be very difficult to entice Franco), I understand many players don't expect such opportunities in a strategy game. At least it doesn't tell anything about your abilities, if you win you just proved Fortuna was on your side (allthough this is not meant to dishonor your abilities at all), or your opponent was caught barefooted.



KorutZelva -> RE: May 1940 USSR DOW in MP?? (7/15/2018 3:41:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

But you`re not playing this sort of game to get average chances, KZ. It`s a high risk gamble, the success might be huge, and if you don't succeed you`re screwed.

Allthough I`m not against it (would also be very difficult to entice Franco), I understand many players don't expect such opportunities in a strategy game. At least it doesn't tell anything about your abilities, if you win you just proved Fortuna was on your side (allthough this is not meant to dishonor your abilities at all), or your opponent was caught barefooted.


It's like the S&I race, you can make it a focus to get on top of it but you can strike out and see the opponent surge ahead even if invest with just one country because of lucky breakthrough. Luck is everywhere but you can manage it.

Personally, I make my play based on the average chances. I don't do it with the purpose of having the USSR or USA join in 1940, such drastic result would happen when someone responds horrendously incorrectly or some godlike stroke of luck. Sure you can do it for the surprise factor (a lot of player have trouble handling it) but you can make an opportunity strike if there's an opening. You can maneuver into a position where the average odds will get you two hits. For the Allies, just two hits can almost double USSR income and is a realistic goal.

There's the right way to go about it too. I find it's better start a couple of key tech before your diplo push, delaying advance aircraft 5 turn could cost thousands in extra damage. [:)]



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