RE: Future Plans (Full Version)

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Crossroads -> RE: Future Plans (1/31/2019 7:15:53 AM)

I am a huge EA Total War franchise fan. Here's a quick history of the Total War games, I own all the games (and their corresponding expansion ganes as well) but those in italics:

Total War Engine v1
  • 2000 - Shogun: Total War + Mongol Invasion expansion
  • 2002 - Medieval: Total War + Viking Invasion expansion

    Total War Engine v2
  • 2004 - Rome: Total War + Barbarian Invasion, Alexander expansions
  • 2006 - Medieval II: Total War + Kingdoms expansions

    Total War Engine v3
  • 2009 - Empire: Total War + the Warpath Campaign expansion
  • 2010 - Napoleon: Total War + the Peninsular Campaign expansion
  • 2011 - Total War: Shogun 2 + Rise of Samurai, Fall of Samurai expansions
  • 2013 - Total War: Rome II (I won't list the expansions anymore, as the DLCs really took off here! Six DLCs for Rome II so far [:)] )
  • 2015 - Total War: Attila
  • 2016 - Total War: Warhammer
  • 2017 - Total War: Warhammer II
  • 2018 - Total War Saga: Thrones of Britannia

    As seen above, there's been three game engines in the series as a whole, and under those game engines the series has covered a wonderful set of eras. And not only that, as individual games have done that in expanding an era to new wars and campaigns. Medieval II was Europe, Kingdoms expansion extended the era to New World, for intance.

    Compare to Campaign Series:

    Game engine v1 - evolving game by game, each game a separate compile and codebase:

    Talonsoft

  • East Front (1997)
  • West Front (1998)
  • East Front II (1999)
  • Rising Sun (2000)
  • Divided Ground: Middle East Conflict (2001)

    Matrix Games w. John Tiller

  • John Tiller's Campaign Series bundle (2007) - East Front II v1.04, West Front v1.04, Rising Sun v1.04

    Matrix Games w. CS Legion

    Game engine v1.1 - One game engine version

  • East Front 2 v2.02
  • West Front v2.02
  • Rising Sun v2.02

    Game engine v1.2 - One game engine version with Adaptive AI

  • Campaign Series: Middle East 1948-1985 (2015 and a free reimage 2018) w. future DLC Iran-Iraq War in the pipeline


    Game engine v2.0 - Lua Event Engine

  • Campaign Series: Vietnam 1948-1985 (in the works, planned release 2019) w. future DLC Korean War in the pipeline

  • Campaign Series: East Front 1939-1941 (in the works, planned release 2020) w. future DLCs for 1942-1943 and 1944-1945 in the pipeline

  • Ditto: Campaign Series: West Front, Pacific front with their DLC in the pipeline.
  • Ditto: Campaign Series: Cold War with their DLCs in the pipeline

    Granted, we as the CS Legion dev team are certainly not Electronic Arts with their massive resources, yet there's a planned approach for the years to come to bring this series forward. Things are taking their time, but we're working in a very systematic manner with the resources we have. For instance, the nations such as United States in CS: Vietnam will be available for CS: Cold War, as well as for CS: Vietnam DLC Korean War. Similarly, the UK in CS: Middle East were built with Cold War in mind, there's the Army of the Rhine there for instance.

    Everyone make what they wish with semantics as they see fit, I am not seeing a very different approach into as what we are doing to say what EA is doing with Total War. Lots of eras and wars to come, with new code and graphics added to replace that of the old at intervals.



    edit typos



    • Noypi53 -> RE: Future Plans (1/31/2019 11:12:20 AM)

    What are the plans to release this game in Steam?



    Crossroads -> RE: Future Plans (1/31/2019 12:51:40 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Noypi53

    What are the plans to release this game in Steam?


    This has not been discussed in detail. Lately, Matrix has released first on their store and then shortly after in Steam, with a coupon code to register a Matrix purchased game there, too. So maybe something like that.

    But as said, this has not been discussed yet.



    tevans -> RE: Future Plans (1/31/2019 12:58:52 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Jason Petho


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: tevans
    The only possible way it could be a new game is if you scrapped the CS series and all of it's code and did your own thing from scratch. You guys aren't doing that.


    The code is to the point where it is all new because of the grand issues with the old code, it has need to be redone/rewritten.

    We are doing exactly that.

    That shouldn't be too difficult to comprehend?

    So are you still using base code as you said in a previous post or are all the games being rewritten from scratch? How exactly are you creating new games that way? That's what I don't understand. All you're doing is changing and enhancing an existing game that somebody else (John Tiller) created. What's the difference between what you're doing and modding? I don't see any difference. If you keep anything from the original games then whatever you do amounts to nothing more than modding.

    I have Divided Ground and CS Middle East. Both are good games. Please explain to me how CS Middle East is a new game. It's just an enhanced version of Divided Ground. Do those enhancements make the original game better? You bet. But those enhancements were added to a game which already existed. How is that any different than some modder doing a complete overhaul of a Total War game? That modder had to start with the original game just like you start with an original. Anything that modder creates does nothing more than change aspects of the original game. That's exactly what you're doing.

    If I'm wrong and you're completely rewriting code plus adding new graphics and data systems then why would you even bother calling your creation the Campaign Series? Tiller created the Campaign Series. Why wouldn't you want your original design called and sold as something else. That why I asked if Tiller's name was going to be associated with the next version of the Campaign Series. If you're scrapping everything he wrote then why use his name and if you're aren't scrapping everything then I don't see how you can call it a brand new game.



    tevans -> RE: Future Plans (1/31/2019 1:11:49 PM)

    @Crossroads I have the entire Total War series. I know that they came out with different versions. Creative Assembly has developed every single one of them. Almost every single one of those games gets modded too. Some with complete overhauls. But every mod starts with the original game and needs the original game to run a mod. How is that any different from what you guys are doing. You're taking an old series of games and enhancing them by changing code, graphics and data. That's what modders do. I'm not saying that what you guys are doing is necessarily a bad thing. I'm just saying that all it amounts to is modding. Whatever you create just changes or adds to an already existing game. Nothing wrong with that except for the claim that they're new games. They aren't new. The only possible way they could be new games is if every single one of them was created from scratch. But if you're going to go to all the trouble to do that then why still call it the Campaign Series? Call it something else and let it stand or fall on it's own merits.



    Jason Petho -> RE: Future Plans (1/31/2019 1:42:36 PM)

    quote:

    If you're scrapping everything he wrote then why use his name and if you're aren't scrapping everything then I don't see how you can call it a brand new game.


    Marketing 101



    76mm -> RE: Future Plans (1/31/2019 5:44:23 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: tevans
    If you keep anything from the original games then whatever you do amounts to nothing more than modding.

    That's really what you think? Then why don't you mod up a 3D version of the campaign series which uses its OOB? You seem to have a very exaggerated view of what constitutes "modding".



    demyansk -> RE: Future Plans (1/31/2019 9:45:32 PM)

    All the hps games I own along with Tiller all play in a similar fashion. However, always changes in the content whether it's WW1 or WW2. As far as I am concerned, Vietnam will be a new game compared to middle east. I like it that way, I don't want to learn an entire new system. I have all the Battlefield games from EA. Always somewhat different themes, changes in graphics, New weapons but still me running around trying to survive. All these games being developed and items in general borrow from previous versions. Radios, tv's, computers, auto's, trains and the list goes on. I don't complain too much because these guys know way more than I do about creating games and I always have the choice to buy or leave alone. I tend to buy, it's the American Way, quality is where it's at.

    Keep up the good work on the games. I enjoy them very much and I am sure you are making below minimum wage with all the work being done.



    tevans -> RE: Future Plans (1/31/2019 10:07:43 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: 76mm

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: tevans
    If you keep anything from the original games then whatever you do amounts to nothing more than modding.

    That's really what you think? Then why don't you mod up a 3D version of the campaign series which uses its OOB? You seem to have a very exaggerated view of what constitutes "modding".


    Very simple reason. I don't mod this game. But I have made mods for other games. My view isn't exaggerated at all. Maybe you can tell me the difference between what's going on here and modding. Crossroads brought up the Total War series. Let's take a look at that for an example. Total War Warhammer 1 & 2 both have been modded extensively. There are overhaul mods that actually change the way the game plays as well as adding more units and graphics. Code and data was changed in those mods. Tell me how that is any different than what's happening with the Campaign Series.

    Even closer to home take a look at the Scourge of War series. People have modded those games to add new units, graphics and battles. They've made new maps and changed some of the data. That's what I see is going on here. There's nothing wrong with it except for the claims that they're making new games. No. All they're doing is changing some code, data and graphics to an already existing game. Somewhat like an overhaul mod. People creating overhaul mods for games such as Total War aren't claiming to have made new games. They know better.

    I'm not saying that Jason and his team are doing a bad thing by enhancing these games either. In fact, I think it's a good thing. But let's call it what it is. They aren't new games. Not as long as they're building on to the existing game. If they start from scratch there really isn't any point in calling it the Campaign Series anymore because it won't be the Campaign Series that John Tiller created.

    New games to me are built from the ground up from scratch with new ideas. Not from taking an existing game and changing it or adding on to it. There are plenty of Matrix games that get modded. Graphics get changed. Data is changed and in some instances even code has been changed. New scenarios and campaigns are created too. Like I said, I have no problem with what Jason and his team are doing but call it what it is. They aren't new games. They're enhancements to already existing game. That's what modding is. How is it not the case here?



    tevans -> RE: Future Plans (1/31/2019 10:11:45 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

    quote:

    If you're scrapping everything he wrote then why use his name and if you're aren't scrapping everything then I don't see how you can call it a brand new game.


    Marketing 101

    That's not marketing. It's being deceitful. You aren't creating new games. You're only overhauling and enhancing an existing game series. In other words you're modding the game to create new units and theaters to play in. Nothing wrong with enhancing the series like you're doing. Just call it what it is.



    Jason Petho -> RE: Future Plans (1/31/2019 10:26:37 PM)

    quote:

    Just call it what it is.


    And I did.

    Not my fault you don't wish to accept it.

    Different opinions, so be it! To each their own.



    tevans -> RE: Future Plans (1/31/2019 10:30:55 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: demyansk

    All the hps games I own along with Tiller all play in a similar fashion. However, always changes in the content whether it's WW1 or WW2. As far as I am concerned, Vietnam will be a new game compared to middle east. I like it that way, I don't want to learn an entire new system. I have all the Battlefield games from EA. Always somewhat different themes, changes in graphics, New weapons but still me running around trying to survive. All these games being developed and items in general borrow from previous versions. Radios, tv's, computers, auto's, trains and the list goes on. I don't complain too much because these guys know way more than I do about creating games and I always have the choice to buy or leave alone. I tend to buy, it's the American Way, quality is where it's at.

    Keep up the good work on the games. I enjoy them very much and I am sure you are making below minimum wage with all the work being done.

    Glad you brought those games up. Let's take a look at them. People have created graphics mods for them. They've created new campaigns and scenarios too. Some people even took some of the Squad Battles games and basically modded those games into new theaters of play. Africa at War comes to mind.

    The Panzer Campaigns series now has a Gold version which adds new graphics, scenarios etc. New buyers automatically get the enhanced Gold version when they buy from Tiller Software. Anyone with the older versions of those games can get serial numbers for the Gold versions as long as they have a proof of purchase.

    The team making the Gold versions aren't claiming that they've made new games even though they've added new graphics, scenarios and changed data. Tiller has even added to and changed some of the code in those games. But they aren't passing what amounts to being older games although enhanced as being brand new games. They tell you right up front that the games have been enhanced. Again that just basically modding. The difference is the team working with Tiller isn't trying to claim that they've made new games.

    That team has also made new games. The Panzer Battle series. Kursk and Normandy were based on Panzer Campaigns. The Africa Panzer Battles game was I believe created from the ground up. So it's not just a modding team that enhances older versions of Tiller games. They've shown they can also create new games too. What's happening with the Campaign Series is nothing more than modding an existing game. Nothing wrong with modding or enhancing but I think it's deceitful to claim that what's being created are new games.



    tevans -> RE: Future Plans (1/31/2019 10:33:15 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

    quote:

    Just call it what it is.


    And I did.

    Not my fault you don't wish to accept it.

    Different opinions, so be it! To each their own.

    Accept what? Explain to me how what you're doing isn't modding given the fact that you're taking an existing game and overhauling and enhancing it. That's pretty much the definition of modding.



    budd -> RE: Future Plans (1/31/2019 10:34:09 PM)

    I guess then every Tiller game or HPS game after the first or any part two of any game series that uses the same engine is just a mod. That would include many games in many different genre's. I mean all there doing is changing the graphics and adding features,changing a time frame. i just don't see the difference your trying to make.



    Jason Petho -> RE: Future Plans (1/31/2019 10:42:43 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: tevans

    Accept what? Explain to me how what you're doing isn't modding given the fact that you're taking an existing game and overhauling and enhancing it. That's pretty much the definition of modding.


    Fortunately, being on the inside and understanding what we are actually doing, instead of just assuming what we're doing, allows me to say what I say with confidence.

    Thank you for your opinion.



    76mm -> RE: Future Plans (1/31/2019 11:06:50 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: tevans
    Explain to me how what you're doing isn't modding given the fact that you're taking an existing game and overhauling and enhancing it. That's pretty much the definition of modding.

    That's not correct. Mods generally change the graphics, some OOBs, some rules via scripting, etc. To change code, as these devs are doing, is generally beyond the scope of modding, because modders do not have access to code.

    I don't recall anyone saying that these are "brand new games"...ever notice how they stuck with the "Campaign Series"--these are an extension, update, and improvement over the old games, but not a mere mod.



    demyansk -> RE: Future Plans (2/1/2019 12:16:51 AM)

    This section is sort of like talking about
    about communism and socialism. [:)] I love Jason's games



    Big Ivan -> RE: Future Plans (2/1/2019 7:32:28 AM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: demyansk

    This section is sort of like talking about
    about communism and socialism. [:)] I love Jason's games


    +1



    Oberst_Klink -> RE: Future Plans (2/1/2019 8:23:40 AM)

    If you only had some insights in the coding process and the brand new AI (yeah, not modded!) scripts you'd realise very soon it's a different game. I suggest to those who are sceptical to check the sneak previews and sections here on the Forum, as well as on FB and Twitter, that explains what's going on under the hood (literally).

    Klink, Oberst



    tevans -> RE: Future Plans (2/1/2019 1:08:48 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: budd

    I guess then every Tiller game or HPS game after the first or any part two of any game series that uses the same engine is just a mod. That would include many games in many different genre's. I mean all there doing is changing the graphics and adding features,changing a time frame. i just don't see the difference your trying to make.

    I don't see that happening here. I see these guys taking the Campaign series and enhancing it then trying to claim they've made a new game. Using Jason's Model T analogy from a previous post basically somebody is trying to take a Model T throw some extra parts on it and sell it as a Ferrari. Nothing wrong with enhancing the games. That's a good thing. But claiming that by enhancing them they're somehow creating brand new games is in my opinion wrong. They aren't new games. They're old games that have been modded and enhanced.

    So far nobody has explained the difference between what these guys are doing with the Campaign series and modding. What's the difference? Take any popular mod for a game. What does it change? Some change graphics. Some change code and data. Some add scenarios. Some change everything. Jason claims that's what they're doing with the Campaign series. So how is it not modding? Somebody really needs to explain that to me because I just don't see it.

    Let's be honest too. There's a huge difference from a developer like Tiller using the same engine that he created and somebody else tacking things onto one of his games then claiming they've created a new game. Take Divided Ground for instance. Divided Ground was enhanced, modded and overhauled into CS Middle East. I'm sure Jason will claim CS Middle East is a brand new game. How is it new though? They added and/or changed things to the existing game. They didn't just use the engine and build from the ground up like Tiller and his team does. Anybody who has both games should be able to see what I'm talking about. What Jason and his team are doing amounts to nothing more than modding. Modders do the exact same thing.



    MrRoadrunner -> RE: Future Plans (2/1/2019 1:14:42 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: tevans


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

    quote:

    Just call it what it is.


    And I did.

    Not my fault you don't wish to accept it.

    Different opinions, so be it! To each their own.

    Accept what? Explain to me how what you're doing isn't modding given the fact that you're taking an existing game and overhauling and enhancing it. That's pretty much the definition of modding.


    [:D] Well, well. Welcome back Timmy!

    RR



    tevans -> RE: Future Plans (2/1/2019 1:21:39 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

    If you only had some insights in the coding process and the brand new AI (yeah, not modded!) scripts you'd realise very soon it's a different game. I suggest to those who are sceptical to check the sneak previews and sections here on the Forum, as well as on FB and Twitter, that explains what's going on under the hood (literally).

    Klink, Oberst

    You do realize that some mods for certain games change code and even the AI for those games, right? It may make it a different game but it doesn't make it a new game. If so much is changing then why still call it the Campaign Series? Why not start fresh with a brand new title for the series? My point is these guys had something that Tiller created to work with. Unless they scrap every single bit of his code, scrap all the data and everything he created then all they're doing is adding on to his work. That doesn't mean they've created a new game though. Modders do the same thing all the time.

    I don't take offense because of what they're doing. Enhancing these games is a good thing. My problem is with Jason claiming that they're brand new games. They aren't. Tiller created the Campaign Series. So how can somebody else come along and change a few things then claim they've created something new. All they've done is change what was there. That's what mods do. There are plenty of examples of that throughout gaming that will back me up.



    tevans -> RE: Future Plans (2/1/2019 1:22:05 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: tevans


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

    quote:

    Just call it what it is.


    And I did.

    Not my fault you don't wish to accept it.

    Different opinions, so be it! To each their own.

    Accept what? Explain to me how what you're doing isn't modding given the fact that you're taking an existing game and overhauling and enhancing it. That's pretty much the definition of modding.


    [:D] Well, well. Welcome back Timmy!

    RR

    Thanks Roadrunner. Good to be back. How ya doing?



    tevans -> RE: Future Plans (2/1/2019 1:28:17 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: 76mm

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: tevans
    Explain to me how what you're doing isn't modding given the fact that you're taking an existing game and overhauling and enhancing it. That's pretty much the definition of modding.

    That's not correct. Mods generally change the graphics, some OOBs, some rules via scripting, etc. To change code, as these devs are doing, is generally beyond the scope of modding, because modders do not have access to code.

    I don't recall anyone saying that these are "brand new games"...ever notice how they stuck with the "Campaign Series"--these are an extension, update, and improvement over the old games, but not a mere mod.

    Yet I can show you mods that have changed all you've listed plus code too. Take a look at Long War for X Com 1 & 2. Or some of the Warhammer overhauls for TW Warhammer 1 & 2. They changed code, graphics, data and rules. Some RPG's such as NWN 1 & 2 and Divinity OS have mods that change more than graphics. Some change code too. What difference does it make how it's done? Direct code change or scripting. The point is the code changes and in most cases the game plays differently.

    Someone did say they were brand new games too. Jason said it a few posts up. That what caused me to respond in the first place. He was telling somebody that these weren't mods but brand new games.



    tevans -> RE: Future Plans (2/1/2019 1:32:52 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Jason Petho


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: tevans

    Accept what? Explain to me how what you're doing isn't modding given the fact that you're taking an existing game and overhauling and enhancing it. That's pretty much the definition of modding.


    Fortunately, being on the inside and understanding what we are actually doing, instead of just assuming what we're doing, allows me to say what I say with confidence.

    Thank you for your opinion.


    That's nice. But you still haven't explained to me how what you're doing is different from what modders do. How is it different? I can show you mods for games that change everything that you say you're changing with this series. Quite honestly I think what you're doing is a good thing. I just have a problem with you trying to claim that you're creating new games. Tiller created the Campaign Series. All you're doing is tweaking it and enhancing it. Putting new paint on an old house doesn't make it a new house. A polished turd is still a turd too. Get my point? I like the enhancements you're making. But I think you're being dishonest by claiming they're new games.



    Crossroads -> RE: Future Plans (2/1/2019 1:43:32 PM)

    It has been explained to you many times. If new code + new lua code engine + new data + new graphics + a new era/war to cover is not a game for you, so be it. For me it sure is.



    Jason Petho -> RE: Future Plans (2/1/2019 1:56:35 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Crossroads

    It has been explained to you many times. If new code + new lua code engine + new data + new graphics + a new era/war to cover is not a game for you, so be it. For me it sure is.


    +1

    ad nauseam



    Crossroads -> RE: Future Plans (2/1/2019 2:28:16 PM)

    In a way, it is even irrelevant if we've changed the Matrix Campaign Series codebase or not (we have). Games, or games franchise such as Campaign Series especially, are not coded individually for most part, instead they are typically constructed by using a common game engine to them.

    Well known game engines include AGEOD, for one. Some game series evolve over several game engines, like Total War, for instance.

    The current version of Matrix Campaign Series game engine begun in Talonsoft, which had two quite similar game engines to create new games, the Battle Ground game engine (for both Napoleonic and ACW games), and Campaign Series game engine (for three WW2 and one Middle East game).

    The current Matrix Campaign Series game engine is of course based on the earlier version, but as of CS Middle East stopped being compatible with the JTCS game engine. CS Vietnam will have a brand new CS Event Engine to add to it. Under the hood, the core CS game engine actually is not 100% compatible with even CS Middle East anymore, but we're providing a free update for current CS Middle East owners to game graphics and game data together with the latest game engine version (+ the new Lua Event Engine), so that the CS Middle East owners can enkjoy the latest and greatest as well.



    Crossroads -> RE: Future Plans (2/1/2019 2:37:00 PM)

    Well that was a fun walk in the memory lane, with the early Talonsoft releases. I had totally forgotten that the first Battelground game was not Gettysburg, but the Battle of Ardennes / Bulge instead!

    [image]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0f/Battleground_-_Bulge-Ardennes_Coverart.png[/image]

    [image]https://web.archive.org/web/19961223025314if_/http://www.nuke.com:80/compent/reviews/octarc/bga/bga1.gif[/image]

    Edit: Here's 3D view to compliment the above 2D view:

    [image]https://web.archive.org/web/19961223025645if_/http://www.nuke.com:80/compent/reviews/octarc/bga/bga2.gif[/image]



    XLVIIIPzKorp -> RE: Future Plans (2/1/2019 3:49:51 PM)


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Crossroads

    Well that was a fun walk in the memory lane, with the early Talonsoft releases. I had totally forgotten that the first Battelground game was not Gettysburg, but the Battle of Ardennes / Bulge instead!

    [image]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0f/Battleground_-_Bulge-Ardennes_Coverart.png[/image]

    [image]https://web.archive.org/web/19961223025314if_/http://www.nuke.com:80/compent/reviews/octarc/bga/bga1.gif[/image]



    What a great little game that was for it's time. A Campaign Series Grandparent.

    I still have a copy running on my machine for when I'm feeling nostalgic.



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