Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (Full Version)

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DWReese -> Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/14/2019 12:03:21 AM)

I'm not even sure if this is possible, but can Biologics (fish) be given a mission?

The reason that I am asking is that I'm teleporting them into an area of a scenario, but I'm not sure if they have to be pre-programmed to move because they are fish; or they move on their own because they are programmed to do so; or, do they just sit there and do nothing? I seem to remember that they do move, a;beit ever so slowly, but perhaps it's because someone has programmed, or the designers have given them a "mission."

Does anyone who has "gone fishing" with scenarios know what's the best method to have fish move in a scenario?

Doug



Primarchx -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/14/2019 1:03:03 AM)

I usually put them on an ASW mission.



DWReese -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/14/2019 1:21:13 AM)

Primarchx,

So, I assume that if they aren't actually on a mission then they just hangout at the same depth and zero speed. So, by putting them on a mission they will move around a little bit, changing depth, etc.?

Doug



Primarchx -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/14/2019 1:39:40 AM)

As I recall, yes. Been a while, though.



Whicker -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/14/2019 1:50:27 AM)

they should also be on a side that is blind.

Far as I know they are like subs, though I have seen them seemingly change depth once in a while, never figured out if that was on purpose or not. I usually put them on a mission with a randomly assigned speed (1-4) and depth.



DWReese -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/14/2019 2:28:42 AM)

Thanks for the advice on speed.

Doug



HalfLifeExpert -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/14/2019 5:49:58 AM)

While I've done little scenario design, I would think that the only useful mission to give them would be a simple patrol mission so that they can move about somewhat randomly



benefant -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/14/2019 10:45:47 AM)

i set the biologics allwais
into a mine laying mission
then they drive around


ASW - or AAW -> then they "search" for Subs and drive to intercept them (theoretically if the detect somewhat).



DWReese -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/14/2019 12:31:09 PM)

Thanks for the mine-laying tip. I never would have thought of that.

Doug



SeaQueen -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/14/2019 2:26:47 PM)

I'm not against it. In a scenario involving lots of ASW, there needs to be a lot of false contacts of some kind.

My problem is that in the database, most false contacts are easily identified as (biologics or otherwise) false contacts by observing how they move. The result is that an experienced player doesn't drop many torpedoes on false contacts. There needs to be some kind of false contact unit which is truly indistinguishable from a submarine without being subject to classification.



Panther Bait -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/14/2019 2:33:26 PM)

I am not sure if the biologics are placed in a scenario typically as a torpedo sink. Mostly I think they are intended to be simple distractions, although I think they can be used as temporary concealment to hide behind.

Mike



Whicker -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/14/2019 3:59:58 PM)

for the mission type if they are blind they never find anything so the mine laying part doesn't matter - sea control should work fine as well as patrols.



SeaQueen -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/14/2019 4:02:58 PM)

False contacts (biological in origin or otherwise) have many effects. The primary one is to complicate the risk management decisions of the ASW commander. Suppose one decides to accept minimal risk assuming all submarines are fair game. Then you drop/shoot torpedoes at everything. You'll get a lot of false contacts, but the only submarines you won't get are the ones you don't see. The down side is that you waste a lot of torpedoes. The other extreme is to drop/shoot torpedoes at no contacts that haven't been identified as hostile submarines. This means that you shoot fewer torpedoes and run out less quickly, but you also take more risk because while you're attempting to identify the submarine you're more likely to allow him to attack you first.



BeirutDude -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/14/2019 4:51:11 PM)

I usually give them an ASW or Sea Control Mission (whales and Dolphins blow holes [:D] ).



BeirutDude -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/14/2019 4:53:43 PM)

And the biologics need to add ambient noise into the water column to bring the ASW Probability Of Detection down. Also wave action needs to so so as well when all of those churned up bubbles collapse! The higher the sea state the harder ASW should be.



BeirutDude -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/14/2019 4:55:53 PM)

Agree with Doug, never thought of it. That said at 2 to 4 knots biologics aren't running down many nuke boats!



DWReese -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/14/2019 5:05:07 PM)

The thing that I like about fish movement is that subs usually move, where fish don't usually move (so much) in the game.

A stationary target is more likely to be fish, as opposed to a "target" moving a couple of knots at a time. The movement adds a little more realism. Seeing a non-moving target at -131 feet, or -66 feet, kind of "smells fishy", if you know what I mean.

Doug



BeirutDude -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/14/2019 5:11:12 PM)

Agreed I like my fish moving so will continue ASW missions.

I really wish having a lot of fish/biologics nearby decreased the POD on the sub (and waves) then they become much more useful and realistic.



Tailhook -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/14/2019 5:51:46 PM)

If you set the side to blind though, won't that keep them from trying to chase down contacts?



Whicker -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/14/2019 6:26:36 PM)

correct - fish don't pursue do they? you just want them running around randomly. then it doesn't matter what mission type they are on, the mission just keeps the moving.



SeaQueen -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/14/2019 7:30:48 PM)

quote:

correct - fish don't pursue do they? you just want them running around randomly. then it doesn't matter what mission type they are on, the mission just keeps the moving.


Make their side blind. It keeps them from pursuing and it also improves run time by limiting the number of detection calculations going on under the hood.



Kushan04 -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/15/2019 1:41:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen
My problem is that in the database, most false contacts are easily identified as (biologics or otherwise) false contacts by observing how they move. The result is that an experienced player doesn't drop many torpedoes on false contacts. There needs to be some kind of false contact unit which is truly indistinguishable from a submarine without being subject to classification.


Why? Most sonar operators are probably good enough to tell a biologic from a real contact. Seaman Beaumont doesn't count.



SeaQueen -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/15/2019 12:17:21 PM)

quote:


Why? Most sonar operators are probably good enough to tell a biologic from a real contact. Seaman Beaumont doesn't count.


It depends. After some examination, yes certainly, however, you if you make an initial detection and classification off of maybe a few sniffs of narrowband signal excess, Doppler, etc. then maybe not. It's dependent on the classification criteria (some of them might be more conservative than others), the systems involved, the type of sonar target, etc.

I'm actually thinking more along the lines of a generic "false contact" unit, though. False contacts have a variety of origins, not all of them biological. None the less, the whole point of them is that regardless of origins, they are not quickly distinguishable from submarines. There needs to be a false contact that neither the player or the AI can quickly distinguish as not a submarine. Right now, the AI can't tell the difference, but an experienced player can. The result is that false contacts don't have the impact on the game that's intended if the player is experienced.



Tailhook -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/15/2019 7:00:42 PM)

I have Goblins trigger a pop-up alert for my setup right now. And depending on the range from my primary assets, I might shoot first identify later. For example, a contact close Ronny carrier group.

Where this gets tricky is scenarios with unknown neutral/allied subs



SeaQueen -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/15/2019 8:31:53 PM)

quote:


Where this gets tricky is scenarios with unknown neutral/allied subs


I've actually been considering populating my "false contact" side with submarines of various sorts which might be present in the scenario and making them blind. The purpose would be to fool a player into dropping torpedoes on them. They'd certainly be more difficult to recognize. I need to experiment with that.



Tailhook -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/15/2019 8:36:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

quote:


Where this gets tricky is scenarios with unknown neutral/allied subs


I've actually been considering populating my "false contact" side with submarines of various sorts which might be present in the scenario and making them blind. The purpose would be to fool a player into dropping torpedoes on them. They'd certainly be more difficult to recognize. I need to experiment with that.

Seems a little cheesy. You could have another side that's like "NATO subs" (example if playing USN) that is blind and neutral to the enemy so they don't attack, and tell the player to PID all contacts (this at least takes more time). Or, it would be cool if there was another false contact/biological "unit" added that was more ambiguous, acoustically.



Whicker -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/15/2019 9:33:25 PM)

there are 3 false contact units in addition to the fish...



Tailhook -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/15/2019 9:46:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Whicker

there are 3 false contact units in addition to the fish...

Right, but last I checked they can't move? My go to when finding one is panicking for a bit, attempting to localize it, failing to do so, and eventually realizing it's probably just a false contact. I guess this is the desired behavior, but if it moved like a sub I'd be even more likely to torpedo it.



kevinkins -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/15/2019 10:19:43 PM)

I know Biologics (fish) can confuse the tactical picture - but hundreds of commercial aircraft and fishing vessels can do the same thing. And perhaps to a greater degree than fish. This is a difficult one for scenario designers to grapple with. We can spend a month researching the geopolitical situation and OOB, then realized our pixel troops are not fighting in a sterile environment where everything is hostile. This is a important topic with no clear answer. At what point in scenario design do you add in non hostile actors? Do you add them at all and if so how many?

Kevin



Gunner98 -> RE: Are Biologics (fish) usually given a mission? (2/16/2019 12:51:12 AM)

I tend to use a SEAD mission, then the biologics will continually wander around because they cannot do anything else anyway. If an ASW mission there is a chance that they will follow a sub if they bump into it... I've seen it!.


There are three False contacts and there is an ask for a magnetic False contact. They will move if you set them up that way. I usually leave them stationary along ridgelines and harbour entrances etc to simulate wrecks.


If you want to set up a migration pattern, set the zone for your patrol on the other side of the game area and the Biologics will transit the area, and you can set the speed but it doesn't make that much difference.


I like the minelaying mission idea, that will work well.



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