Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (Full Version)

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MikeJ19 -> Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/25/2019 3:14:13 AM)

This one looks very intimidating and fun!

[image]local://upfiles/47551/2EB81452BA86485D93EB63A3F7D036A7.jpg[/image]



MikeJ19 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/25/2019 3:14:40 AM)

My orders

[image]local://upfiles/47551/2A5D3FF79BEA4990A3872ED590F966F6.jpg[/image]



MikeJ19 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/25/2019 3:15:14 AM)

Where my forces start

[image]local://upfiles/47551/A9674CE32C784B319E1677D3420B873B.jpg[/image]



MikeJ19 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/25/2019 3:16:14 AM)

This will be the first time I face a triple threat - air, surface and underwater.

[image]local://upfiles/47551/E2CB272CB7894D7997FE405FAD9DEB19.jpg[/image]



Ancalagon451 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/25/2019 10:30:23 AM)

Su-17 have no air-to-air capacity other than a pair of guns.

I think it's more probable that the soviet planes simply go for stand-off attacks with heavy antiship and ARM missiles (not a spoiler since I don't really remember, but both Badgers and Fitters are notable carriers of this type of weapons).

Ancalagon



Gunner98 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/25/2019 11:11:52 AM)

Very true, I think the only Soviet Ftr that has the range at the time would be the MiG-25 and that was in the PVO (Air Defence Forces) not Naval Aviation or VVS. The MiG-31 was in service but the BM with the refueling probe didn't enter service until the early 90s, and they were also PVO.

You'd need some type of alternate reality to see them escorting bombers ...[;)]



Ancalagon451 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/25/2019 12:02:13 PM)

MiG-31 IOC was (historically) in 1982. In fact, from an "in universe" perspective the first prototype is scheduled to take-off the next month talk about coincidences.

Albeit there is in fact another fighter with the required range, the Tu-128 Fiddler, but it is also a PVO interceptor, so it would be very unconventional for the soviets to employ them for bomber escort.

Ancalagon




ultradave -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/25/2019 12:41:17 PM)

This is a tough one. An onslaught of supersonic cruise missiles. Where DO they get them all?



MikeJ19 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/25/2019 3:02:06 PM)

I was already intimidated. Now I am quivering...

Okay kidding aside, thanks for the input and advice. I'm learning, slowly, about the different abilities of the various planes and ships.

I've taken a closer look at the likely loadouts for the Badger and Fitter. They can engage from a long way out.

A question about quidance. The AS-6 has a range of about 180nm, but sensors have ranges of 80nm (Active radar) and 10nm (Passive radar), so they are launched in the general direction with the hope that they find something as they get closer? They do not need someone to be identifying the target as they come in?

Have a good day,

[image]local://upfiles/47551/7A4820E107B940319A6BC3D4071EDEFA.jpg[/image]



Gunner98 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/25/2019 3:55:49 PM)

quote:

They do not need someone to be identifying the target as they come in?


Targeting is one of the tricky things to do for the Soviet AI, and to play them as well. They need to have a good idea where you are before they launch and then the active seekers on the CMs will take over. They will use subs, AGIs, lurkers and Bear Recon/EW/ELINT to localize your ships. He can also use Su-17Rs but that is risky business.

You can remain relatively safe if you poke out his eyes but there are usually a lot of eyes out there.

B



MikeJ19 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/25/2019 5:32:56 PM)

Bart,

Thanks for the quick response. The removal of the eyes is going to be important, but difficult to get them all!



Ancalagon451 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/25/2019 8:40:33 PM)

About the WRA, if you look carefully will see that all the standing rules are for ships of 1500 tons or smaller.

Against bigger ships which do not have specific values defined the AI will default to the "Ship-Unspecified" WRA which does indeed allow firing.

The ruleset is meant to avoid the AI wasting such a powerful and scarce weapon against lesser combatants in an expensive overkill.

Ancalagon



MikeJ19 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/26/2019 11:29:24 PM)

Ancalagon451,

Aah, that makes sense now. Once again, my lack of basic naval knowledge shows. 1500 tons sounds big, but is not.

Thanks for helping me understand,



MikeJ19 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/26/2019 11:29:44 PM)

Here is my mission

[image]local://upfiles/47551/991C4922DCA64ADB9D26AA305E42BD17.jpg[/image]



MikeJ19 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/26/2019 11:30:25 PM)

My naval task units

[image]local://upfiles/47551/498246EE08084D0BA9F322DC3471FC69.jpg[/image]



MikeJ19 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/26/2019 11:31:07 PM)

My airfields and the planes that are at them.

[image]local://upfiles/47551/D556993B78DD429F83A4ACEC864D0F0C.jpg[/image]



MikeJ19 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/27/2019 10:02:03 AM)

Some questions about some markings (Reference points?) on the map.

[image]local://upfiles/47551/96A2B65269A541F59579A5434D1FD427.jpg[/image]



Ancalagon451 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/27/2019 11:44:58 AM)

Indeed those are suggested setups for your planes, you are of course free to follow them or not.

AEW stands for "aerial early warning" and means a type of plane with an onboard long range radar, intended to pick aerial contacts over an area for other assets to investigate/engage or as a warning of an incoming threat. AWACS is the most famous and capable of the breed but since they don't exist yet, in this scenario you'll have to make do with much older and less capable Shackletons (they are still good enough for most threats).

BARCAP stands for "barrier combat air patrol" and is a variant of the general CAP mission in which your fighters "draw a line in the air" so to speak and shot any enemy trying to cross it. It's meant to block the way to the enemy's target, in this case, your fleet. Of course, it must still be flown with fighters and not bombers [:)].

Don't remember what PIM stands for, sorry.

Ancalagon





Schr75 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/27/2019 4:45:07 PM)

PIM is short for:
Plan of Intended Motion. Basically just an aimpoint to set your course.

Søren



mikkey -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/27/2019 8:41:18 PM)

Another your nice AAR from NI campaign. Thanks.



MikeJ19 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/28/2019 12:04:41 AM)

Ancalagon451 and Soren,

Thanks for the input on the terms and to confirm that they are guides. Very helpful.

Mikkey, thanks for the nice comments!

Some initial thoughts:

The Soviets pose lots of threats to my forces from the air, surface and beneath the surface. Based on the scenario name, I think that the biggest threat are the Badgers. I’ve got to be ready for attacks from all three dimensions.

I need to clear a path for the three naval task units to the Safe Haven. There I need to make sure that the landing craft and helicopters can get to Narvik in one piece.

It would be nice to remove the eyes from the Soviet air units – that means finding and destroying their Tu-16P Badger J, Tu-126 Moss and Bears. This is likely not very easy to do.

My radar locations are likely already known to the Soviets, so giving them looser EMCON rules makes sense to me. I can use them to try and find the Soviet planes as they move West to attack. I need to remember that it is likely that the Soviets will not respect Swedish neutrality.

I have two squadrons of fighters in Norway. I need to get them in location to attack the Soviet air force. It would be best to attack their EW and recce planes. However, I need to take out the Guided missile launching planes, as well. They will be launching from a long way out.

I have a squadron of fighters on the Ark Royal and another on the Guadacanal. I also have a squadron of planes (Buccaneers) that I can use against Soviet Naval units.

I have P3-Bs that can find and destroy Soviet subs.

I also have my own EW aircraf – six Shackletons and 4 Garnets. I need to use the Shackletons to find and direct my fighters to take out the Soviet Badgers over Norway and Sweden. The Garnets will need to cover the approaches from the North.

My helicopters can be used in conjunction with the P3-Bs to find and destroy Soviet Subs.

The Soviet guided missile cruisers have a stand-off range of about 5nm. Each of my naval task units have ships that can out range the cruisers.

I’m not sure how the forts are going to help. The Soviet surface ships would have to be very close to get engaged from the fort. There are some forts protecting the area that the landing craft are heading for.

I have to remember that this is a 4 day battle – I can not win it the first day. Might be able to lose it right away, though!

One idea is to go on the offensive at the start – sending some planes to attack the Soviet air fields. This might also let me find the eyes from the Soviet air force.



MikeJ19 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/28/2019 10:07:40 AM)

A look at the naval tasks

[image]local://upfiles/47551/E29175FF2F2F4FD9853E3455925EA6D3.jpg[/image]



MikeJ19 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/28/2019 10:08:01 AM)

And the air tasks

[image]local://upfiles/47551/72D584DC744949708ECEF4DFDC28EBB0.jpg[/image]



MikeJ19 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/31/2019 1:29:29 AM)

I'm starting to set up the missions.

First naval group

[image]local://upfiles/47551/08E8A55E43F244C2945DEEF7507E9F16.jpg[/image]



MikeJ19 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/31/2019 1:29:49 AM)

Second group

[image]local://upfiles/47551/3D5D63095EB1432BB8E4DA65B1CF60F2.jpg[/image]



MikeJ19 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/31/2019 1:31:22 AM)

Third group.

Now, how do I set up a mission to attack incoming planes for my Phantoms sitting on the carrier. I want them ready to go if needed?



[image]local://upfiles/47551/4637A8CC2AB54082A204223A9AECF211.jpg[/image]



Ancalagon451 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/31/2019 10:21:55 AM)

Two options

A: Set up a CAP mission as normal and check it's status as inactive (mission planner lefmost column of options). Later when you see bogeys just switch it active.

B: Set up an Air Intercept mission (subtype of the Strike mission), select the distance for the enemy bogeys to trigger the launch and done.

This mission can sometimes have a little FUBAR in which all the planes assigned to it are launched even if only a single bogey is detected.

If you see it happen you can change the "maximum number of flights allowed to fly" to 1 or 2. But if you do, remember that you'll have to manually switch again to unlimited in case of a massive raid incoming.

Ancalagon



Gunner98 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/31/2019 10:53:45 AM)

A couple things to be aware of. Your ASW missions will launch based on type and home base so in your first Amphib group you need to be careful that both helos don't launch at once.

For CAP with a Brit TG vice an American one - your resources are really thin. You've got enough AEW and ASW. Remember to keep your Sea Things with active dipping sonar in and around your heavies which make so much noise that they drown out passive sonobouys.

The general rule for CAP and any fast jet mission really is to fly in pairs. Brit carriers often have to break this rule. The problem with keeping AC on the deck is that it slows your reaction time, by a couple minutes at least: This is not good when there are supersonic sea skimmers inbound. The problem with keeping AC in the air on CAP, is that you burn through their readiness very quickly. 14 Phantoms is much better than 6-8 Harriers in later scenarios so you may want to keep a pair in the air, but if they start getting thin on readiness you may have to strip it down to one at a time.

With a Bear threat you need to cut down the odds, position your CAP down the line of threat like a goalie to cut down the angles and thin out the missiles - BARCAP (Barrier CAP). Your BARCAP is only your tripwire, the trick is to get AEW out early enough that you can start launching and 'Flush the deck' when the strike is detected. I cannot remember the Ganet's capabilities but you may want to put one out with your BARCAP. Every A2A missile you have should be expended before the inbound missiles start getting engaged by SAMs - because you just don't have enough SAMs. (Worth taking a close look at your TG formation as well)

B

B



MikeJ19 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/31/2019 2:06:09 PM)

Ancalagon and Bart,

Thanks for the advice.

I will have to tweak my missions - I was wondering about the ASW patrols with the helicopters in the task units. As they come from different bases/ships and sometimes are different air types, I may have them all in the air right away, which is not ideal. I will have to look into this.

I like the inactive CAP approach - thanks.

I was expecting the Soviets to come from the East rather than the North. May need to re-think some of this. Bart, I take it that you are saying that my planes use their missiles against the inbound missiles. That will be interesting. It would be better if I could take out the Badgers before they launch, but once they launch the missiles are much more dangerous. Hmm, more to think about.

Here is a look at my thoughts about the missions for the aircraft on land.

[image]local://upfiles/47551/5CF940ABDF2C47E4A8434E1AABECCFF1.jpg[/image]



Gunner98 -> RE: Northern Inferno - Beware the Badgers (5/31/2019 2:28:34 PM)

quote:

It would be better if I could take out the Badgers before they launch


That is ideal, and I see you have land based - which are perfect for this task. I was referring to you ship borne Phantoms - those early Aim-7s won't get many inbound missiles but you may want to check on your SAM stocks and ranges. The most effective Sov tactic is to overwhelm your defences.

If you have any int on how many missile carriers are against you - great, otherwise assume a Regt at least (24-32) with 2x missiles each - so worst estimate is ~60 missiles, around 1.5 SAMs per missile and early CIWS getting another 1 or 2. If the bad guys find you it can get ugly very fast. Knocking down the bomber before they launch is great as it cuts your targets in half and they won't be coming back for a re-strike. Unfortunately even early AS-4, 5 & 6 have ranges above 150nm out to ~200 I think, so your F-104s are in a great spot to hit them but your F-4s may be drawn too far from your ships to be useful.

Defeating this kind of strike is key to many cold war scenarios, and its not always easy.

B




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