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Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: OT: Best American War movie? EZ Peasy (7/31/2019 12:08:03 AM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: warspite1
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury
Those interested in "Conspiracy" should watch the German version: Die Wannseekonferenz (1984)
it is good and probably more accurate
warspite1
There was a discussion on the two versions in the GD forum two years ago. Please see below from post 2337 to 2345 which starts off with my view of the two (including my take on the 'accuracy' of each).
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2959208&mpage=78&key=BBC%2Cversion
If you've never seen either version but are interested in WWII I would strongly recommend you watch at least one version (but personally favour the HBO/BBC version as per the summary).
I visited Berlin last year and went to Wannsee to take a tour of the house. The setting, by a lake and surrounded by greenery, is absolutely beautiful, the house is big without being overly grand. The setting makes what took place here - a discussion on mass murder on a truly industrial scale - so difficult to imagine.
For further reading I would also recommend The Villa, The Lake, The Meeting; Wannsee and the Final Solution (Roseman)
Here is a review I did of the book for Amazon. Again, if WWII is your thing, then I thoroughly recommend this too.
A very good read - albeit not the one I was quite expecting. As one historian wrote "the most remarkable thing about the Wannsee Conference is that we do not know why it took place". My understanding has always been that this was the conference that decided the fate of the Jews of Europe and set in motion the Final Solution. But the truth is, that is almost certainly not the case. For one thing, as is argued by Roseman, the people present at the meeting were too junior in rank to agree such a thing. The Wannsee Protocol (minutes) that survived are just a summary of the meeting rather than a proper record of what was said and by whom.
Whilst not detracting from the quality of the book, the story is ultimately unsatisfying - not only for the obvious reason of the most terrible outcome - but because we will probably never now know exactly who ordered what and when.
By the time of Wannsee, Jews had been gassed at Chelmno since early December 1941, the Extermination camp at Belzec was already under construction, individuals were seemingly taking matters into their own hands and the Einsatzkommando in the Soviet Union were liberally murdering Jews and had been for months. Even after the conference, and as soon as the military situation allowed for transportation, there was much involvement in individual train loads by Himmler - and through him, Adolf Hitler.
Many of the documents needed to identify what exactly happened have been either destroyed - particularly around Heydrich's involvement - or perhaps never existed (given Hitler's wish to distance himself from written evidence linking him with genocide). Even where documents exist there is much contradictory evidence, euphemism and Hitler’s vitriolic speeches that may or may not have always meant what he actually said. At Nuremburg (and later Eichmann in Israel) of course those at the meeting who were still alive had every reason to be economical with the truth of what happened and their own involvement. Trying to piece together the evidence is difficult and so we don’t get that neat tidying up of all the loose ends with specific orders on specific dates that confirm xxxx is when the Final Solution began.
I suppose that we should not be surprised. We take on face value – because all WWII histories about the Nazis confirm and reinforce the fact - that Hitler operated a divide and rule policy and liked to play off departments and people against each other. Given that, why should we think that genocide would be any different.
But Roseman at least tries to provide the various strands of evidence in the chapters – Mein Kampf to Mass Murder and Mass Murder to Genocide - and so set the importance of the conference against what happened before (and indeed in the year after) the events of 20 January 1942. If Wannsee was not the meeting where the ‘Final Solution of the Jewish Question’ was actually finalised, its importance as a turning point in what came about is clear.
This is a book that paints a picture of how, on 20 January 1942, fifteen well-educated men (two thirds had a university degree and over half had the title doctor, mainly in law) came together to meet and, speaking to one another with great politeness, sipping their cognac, they cleared the way for genocide.
My perspective:
- I liked both, story wise they are similar, and well in line to what you wrote: this was not a meeting to discuss the "final solution" to the Jewish problem, the decision to exterminate was already made and mass murder was already happening. This conference was a 90min, mid-senior level meeting hosted by Heynrich to obtain full collaboration and compliance from other stakeholders. SS got control and responsibility, the others full accountability.
What I didn't like about the BBC version is that the Germans are too cliche; Kenneth Branagh was the worst, he looked like some kind of refined Übermensch commanding and controlling the meeting. I prefer to see Heynrich, as how it is acted by the German: a cold, crude, ruthless, womanizing, rude, late-30s, sociopath
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