I'm gonna say it...you won't like it

I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (Full Version)

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Essro -> I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/28/2019 2:00:23 AM)
Stacking. I want to be able to stack a second corps. Period. I don't care if it is part of the attack or not (or maybe it just contribute arty in attack and arty + guns while defended). But this nonsense of dancing units around is silly. I call it Hitler's hokey pokey, "you put your II Panzer Korps in, you put your II Panzer Korps out, you put your XIX Mot. Korps in all you shake it all about!" PS: still love the game :)

Michael T -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/28/2019 2:08:05 AM)
I like the stacking for fleets. Maybe similar could have worked for ground and air. I doubt something as major as that is going to change now though.

AlbertN -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/28/2019 2:10:50 AM)
Double stacking may make some hexes too hard to crack in general. It would need a whole lot of code to stack 2 land units in the same spot; and then have only the best of the two partake in a fight. But two corps crammed in the same hex is -a lot- in terms of military stuff packed in.

Essro -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/28/2019 2:14:19 AM)
No, I know. I suspect it would be a major change. Here other some other wish items: -some type of Strategic Warfare Report...what's the collective damage my bombers have done to Germany? Or subs to UK? -ability to assign specific units to specific headquarters.

goodwoodrw -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/28/2019 2:17:12 AM)
The reason I have kept away from the SC series is of the stacking rules. I find this game interesting, but the stacking rules are again an issue. Just for the record if you split a core you can't place 2 div size units in the same hex is that correct?

Essro -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/28/2019 2:19:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith Double stacking may make some hexes too hard to crack in general. It would need a whole lot of code to stack 2 land units in the same spot; and then have only the best of the two partake in a fight. But two corps crammed in the same hex is -a lot- in terms of military stuff packed in. two corps can fit just fine in the area represented. But yes, it's an unrealistic ask on my part because it would take some significant code. I was happy just to have naval and air and ground all in the same hex. That drives me nuts in those more arcade type games like SC. EDIT: FOR THE RECORD---it works generally pretty well in Warplan as is, I'm just griping. It's definitely NOT a deal breaker in this case.

Michael T -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/28/2019 2:21:09 AM)
Yes, no 2 ground units can exist in one hex. Not even HQ plus other ground. Stacking plus the combat model kept me well away from SC. eek. But I can live with the lack of stacking in WarPlan as it has a nice combat model. But I would prefer to be able to stack, up to a sensible limit.

AlvaroSousa -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/28/2019 3:06:41 AM)
To answer the stacking question... I wanted to do everything like the naval system but I found that programming would be a very tall order. The reason is the A.I.. It is too much to program at once on a conceptual system that hasn't been proven yet. It's like me trying to make a racing car before I even invent a car. WarPlan is a corp level game. The abstract stacking comes from corps and armies being able to detach/split. That is the compromise I made. Functionally it is MUCH easier than manipulating stacks of counters.

ncc1701e -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/28/2019 7:24:14 AM)
Watching a video of Fall Gelb, it is funny to see that no stacking prevents the AI to enter French and British armies in Belgium. Too many Belgium units in front of them...But this is also preventing to establish a Schwerpunkt [8\|] Missing stacks

Worg64 -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/28/2019 8:37:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Essro Stacking. I want to be able to stack a second corps. Period. I don't care if it is part of the attack or not (or maybe it just contribute arty in attack and arty + guns while defended). But this nonsense of dancing units around is silly. I call it Hitler's hokey pokey, "you put your II Panzer Korps in, you put your II Panzer Korps out, you put your XIX Mot. Korps in all you shake it all about!" PS: still love the game :) WHY Would You EVER want more stacking in a strategic wwII corp/army game? If you want more stacking in all respect play War in the East! I find the one unit stack great! Its easy easy to handle, makes for a excellent overview and make for a good strategic and tactical game. This dancing around with units are tons worse in a game with lots of stacking. Also this dancing around as you call "hokey pokey" is what make the tactical game a valid point in the game. Do you have reserves that can fill the gaps or do you go for a thin line or a breakthrough. Its not just a dance around of units, its the tactical play. One stacking also makes for a game much easier to make a decent AI for and above else makes it impossible to triple stack to defend critical hexes something the AI can then not take. No KEEP the One Unit Stacking! Its great as it is! The 9 ships stacking for the fleet is something thats good due however because you dont have that many ships and it suits the theme of the naval war.

ncc1701e -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/28/2019 9:25:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Worg64 WHY Would You EVER want more stacking in a strategic wwII corp/army game? If you want more stacking in all respect play War in the East! Of course War in the East... why it seems forbidden to have stacks in a strategic game? World in Flames have stacks but true, not all strategic games implement stacks. You see my problem is the following, you have the hexes that give you an operational feeling but yet you can't concentrate your army to achieve a breakthrough. And I like to reproduce Panzer breakthrough in the Ardennes. If this is a so-called strategic game, why providing hexes anyway? You could have big regions like Gary Grigsby's World at War a World Divided. Everything will be solved by war economy and production anyway.

juntoalmar -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/28/2019 12:23:26 PM)
I think it's a matter of compromise/balance. The trade off between what you win by that decission, with what you lose. There is no "perfect solution", just some people would love one over the other because that "what you win" and "what you lose" are completely subjective. This is the solution Alvaro thought that would work better for the game he had in mind, and it could never make everybody happy. If the game sits in between 3R, MWiF & WitE... it's going to have some compromises and it won't match the simplicity of 3R and the complexity of WitE.

AlbertN -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/28/2019 1:18:26 PM)
I think for Warplan the stacking is fine as it is - there are many things that I consider need tweaking / fixing / changing; but not stacking. World in Flames is corps / army sized BUT it has also way less hexes than this, for instance. Hence the stacking. Then stacking affects game mechanics an amount too in terms of combat and whatnot.

Manstein63 -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/28/2019 2:10:00 PM)
Technically you can stack more than one unit in a hex (there are 3 divisions in a large corp). I wouold like to be also able to stack HQ's with Land units treat them a garrison unit ie white numbers & 50% attack value and allow them to stack in the same hex as a combat land unit and or a aircraft / naval unit with a maximum of 3 unit types to a hex. Manstein63

MOS96B2P -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/28/2019 5:10:18 PM)
Reference stacking units one thing that might be considered is the ability to stack HQ units with other units. So a land hexagon could have up to one land unit, one air unit and one HQ unit. This might help alleviate some of the map congestion. If this is a change that can be done without a lot of time/effort/money it might be worth considering.

AlbertN -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/28/2019 5:32:33 PM)
I think the potential problem is that the HQ is de facto a combat unit and not just an abstraction of a commander with its staff. Having 10 strength, it's like the HQ has a division attached to function as escort / guarding force.

Plainian -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/28/2019 5:45:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MOS96B2P Reference stacking units one thing that might be considered is the ability to stack HQ units with other units. So a land hexagon could have up to one land unit, one air unit and one HQ unit. This might help alleviate some of the map congestion. If this is a change that can be done without a lot of time/effort/money it might be worth considering. I don't think HQ units are designed to be front line units although I get the idea that the effect is to allocate or attach Army reserves to a part of the front line. If the game had stacking on day 1 then no doubt everyone would be moaning about the poor AI.

MOS96B2P -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/28/2019 5:52:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith I think the potential problem is that the HQ is de facto a combat unit and not just an abstraction of a commander with its staff. Having 10 strength, it's like the HQ has a division attached to function as escort / guarding force. Ah, that's a good point. I have always been very careful with HQs and forgot they have 10 strength. This could be a complication to the HQ stacking idea......

cdcool -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/28/2019 8:22:55 PM)
I agree

cdcool -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/28/2019 8:23:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: goodwoodrw The reason I have kept away from the SC series is of the stacking rules. I find this game interesting, but the stacking rules are again an issue. Just for the record if you split a core you can't place 2 div size units in the same hex is that correct? I agree!

cdcool -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/28/2019 8:30:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa To answer the stacking question... I wanted to do everything like the naval system but I found that programming would be a very tall order. The reason is the A.I.. It is too much to program at once on a conceptual system that hasn't been proven yet. It's like me trying to make a racing car before I even invent a car. WarPlan is a corp level game. The abstract stacking comes from corps and armies being able to detach/split. That is the compromise I made. Functionally it is MUCH easier than manipulating stacks of counters. I don't like that compromise at all.

toddtreadway -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/29/2019 12:38:13 AM)
I do.

Worg64 -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/29/2019 2:27:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cdcool quote: ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa To answer the stacking question... I wanted to do everything like the naval system but I found that programming would be a very tall order. The reason is the A.I.. It is too much to program at once on a conceptual system that hasn't been proven yet. It's like me trying to make a racing car before I even invent a car. WarPlan is a corp level game. The abstract stacking comes from corps and armies being able to detach/split. That is the compromise I made. Functionally it is MUCH easier than manipulating stacks of counters. I don't like that compromise at all. Well you might not like it but in life you must surely have to from time to time![:D]

bcgames -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/29/2019 3:28:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa WarPlan is a corp level game. The abstract stacking comes from corps and armies being able to detach/split. That is the compromise I made. Functionally it is MUCH easier than manipulating stacks of counters. I think the system works rather well. It's simple and you learn how to work with the it very quickly; the GUI gets you there after an interaction or two. Likes it.

cdcool -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/29/2019 3:59:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Worg64 quote: ORIGINAL: cdcool quote: ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa To answer the stacking question... I wanted to do everything like the naval system but I found that programming would be a very tall order. The reason is the A.I.. It is too much to program at once on a conceptual system that hasn't been proven yet. It's like me trying to make a racing car before I even invent a car. WarPlan is a corp level game. The abstract stacking comes from corps and armies being able to detach/split. That is the compromise I made. Functionally it is MUCH easier than manipulating stacks of counters. I don't like that compromise at all. Well you might not like it but in life you must surely have to from time to time![:D] Not with my money I don't [:D] [:D][:D]

cdcool -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/29/2019 4:00:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bcgames quote: ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa WarPlan is a corp level game. The abstract stacking comes from corps and armies being able to detach/split. That is the compromise I made. Functionally it is MUCH easier than manipulating stacks of counters. I think the system works rather well. It's simple and you learn how to work with the it very quickly; the GUI gets you there after an interaction or two. Likes it. I will watch some YouTube video's then make a decision. I didn't take SC serious because of lack of Stacking

cdcool -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/29/2019 4:02:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Michael T Yes, no 2 ground units can exist in one hex. Not even HQ plus other ground. Stacking plus the combat model kept me well away from SC. eek. But I can live with the lack of stacking in WarPlan as it has a nice combat model. But I would prefer to be able to stack, up to a sensible limit. My feelings exactly.

Hairog -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/29/2019 5:06:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ncc1701e quote: ORIGINAL: Worg64 WHY Would You EVER want more stacking in a strategic wwII corp/army game? If you want more stacking in all respect play War in the East! Of course War in the East... why it seems forbidden to have stacks in a strategic game? World in Flames have stacks but true, not all strategic games implement stacks. You see my problem is the following, you have the hexes that give you an operational feeling but yet you can't concentrate your army to achieve a breakthrough. And I like to reproduce Panzer breakthrough in the Ardennes. If this is a so-called strategic game, why providing hexes anyway? You could have big regions like Gary Grigsby's World at War a World Divided. Everything will be solved by war economy and production anyway. quote: You see my problem is the following, you have the hexes that give you an operational feeling but yet you can't concentrate your army to achieve a breakthrough. And I like to reproduce Panzer breakthrough in the Ardennes. With multiple attacks from adjoining hexes and units themselves being able to attack multiple times you can very easily have wonderful breakthroughs and indeed recreate the Blitzkrieg and later on the Soviet Deep Battle. If you can get the allies looking the wrong way you can easily reproduce the breakthrough in the Ardennes as well as by-passing and surrounding millions of Soviets and later Germans. Are there no replay videos of this?!?!?!

bcgames -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/29/2019 5:16:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hairog ...With multiple attacks from adjoining hexes and units themselves being able to attack multiple times you can very easily have wonderful breakthroughs and indeed recreate the Blitzkrieg and later on the Soviet Deep Battle. I'm starting to see this evolve in my game play. The more I understand the game rules, the better my performance. The sequencing of ground offensive operations is compelling game play. Likes it so far. Still uncovering the essentials of air and naval play.

ncc1701e -> RE: I'm gonna say it...you won't like it (10/29/2019 10:21:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hairog With multiple attacks from adjoining hexes and units themselves being able to attack multiple times you can very easily have wonderful breakthroughs and indeed recreate the Blitzkrieg and later on the Soviet Deep Battle. If you can get the allies looking the wrong way you can easily reproduce the breakthrough in the Ardennes as well as by-passing and surrounding millions of Soviets and later Germans. Are there no replay videos of this?!?!?! Yes please, can you show me a video of a real breakthrough in the Ardennes? All I have seen for the moment is a recreation of the Schlieffen plan. Also, this is not linked to Warplan (SC is the same), but I found that invading the Low Countries end of 1939 or beginning of 1940 before entering France is gamey strategy. Strategy that does not help to achieve this breakthrough in the Ardennes, indeed...

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