RE: Turn 6 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (Full Version)

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Shalkai -> RE: Turn 6 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (12/26/2019 3:57:19 PM)

AGS approaches Kiev and starts reducing the outer defenses there. Three divisions are surrendered in Vinnitsa.

[image]local://upfiles/60274/BCCE3A72B548464BBA4AAA5D25AD9C34.jpg[/image]




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 6 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (12/26/2019 3:58:33 PM)

A few Panzers take Kirovograd, Nikolaev, and most of the territory west of Krivoi Rog, but again mostly rest and refit about 15 hexes from rail. I want to be making pockets, but with the Soviet lines 25 hexes or so from rail it would have been foolish to do that anywhere in AGC or AGS this turn. I want my 12.03 patch! :p

[image]local://upfiles/60274/E31913B4C83645F3BB6CCA8DDC046CC8.jpg[/image]




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 6 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (12/26/2019 3:59:10 PM)

Two large attacks against Odessa weaken the fortifications a little bit (4.2 > 3.8) but it’ll take another couple turns to actually seize it.

[image]local://upfiles/60274/C969756B55084B03907384518BD6AA33.jpg[/image]




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 6 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (12/26/2019 4:20:40 PM)

Status checks after combat is complete take up a whole evening.

Red Air Force plane counts: 1500+ 40 mi south of Leningrad. 500 east of VyshVolo. 600 near Moscow, 1000 Vyazma-Bryansk. 300 Gomel. 850 Kiev.

Moscow and Leningrad each have about a quarter of the Sov air forces so more flaks get sent that way. I try some airfield attacks but results are mixed. 8 Airfield attacks cost 7 ftr and 13 bmr, with Soviet losses of 62 ftr and 17 bmr. 4:1 loss ratio isn’t that great. German total air losses are around 70 this turn (with ~10 more minor ally planes lost), so still under new production totals. I also do a decent number of ground attacks to use up some (~20%) of air miles, cause some attrition, and lure up enemy fighters. I make sure minor allies do this too.

I spend some time assigning SUs and locking corps HQs once I’m happy with them. All PzK and PzA, plus some InfK are done for now. There are still things I need to fix, like leg Flak and PzJg units attached to PzK HQs, but I’m not going to spend AP to do that. I’ll do a grand SU reorg during mud turns. The super-heavy guns SU is assigned to 11th Army for use at Odessa, and SUs are locked in that army.

One HQBU done for 39 PzK, currently resting in VeliLuki. Supply is less horrible on the way to Rzhev so there’s probably enough reach for a good advance or small pocket next turn. Final tidy work done - DtHq list is short; just 3 inf divisions not in HQ radius (swamp, whatcanyado?)
I’ve got ten AP unused, so I spend two of them and replace my cheapest cruddy InfK commander.

End of turn to-do: assign St.KG51, and 7.(H)/12 Fi156 back to units[done]. I could do a couple more bmr units if needed, but they are low on exp so can stay in reserve and train another turn or two.

20 hexes to Moscow, 10 to Osinovets.

Total losses at end of Axis Turn 6: Axis 77828 men, 893 gun, 706 afv, 62 spac. Soviet 1343378 men, 20095 gun, 8688 afv, 2550 spac
Net loss of about 1600 vehicles this turn: 2750 lost, 1150 captured.
Air losses: Axis 81 (this turn), 309 Total. Soviet 423 (this turn), 6458 Total. Axis losses higher, but still under new production in any type.
Destroyed units: 16 this turn, 2 TankDiv, 2 RifleDiv, 1RifleBrig, 1SecRgt were the on-map losses.
OOB shows Germany at 3.37M manpower, Soviet at 3.74M

Errors and risks:
Possible error in my attacks on heavily fortified Odessa. I think multiple attacks are more efficient at reducing fort levels? Not sure if I had enough CV available to get three good attacks in last turn. I should next turn, and another German InfK of reinforcements is moving up and could come assist as well. [see Odessa picture above]
Risk - my air units are far forward, so the AGN and AGC bases might be vulnerable to airfield attacks. I’ve taken steps to mitigate this, with extra flak units added to the Fliegerkorps HQ units (most have three now). About six Bf109 units withdraw in two turns so I’m preparing for that as well, with a fighter unit transfer north planned for next turn.
Risk - units at 20+hexes from rail get just a dribble of supplies, so they are potentially vulnerable to counterattacks. Not much of a worry since I believe Gamerdad has (so far) not done a single ground attack this whole game. Stalin must be on holiday in the Crimea.
Risk - I committed 2nd Army to attack east of the Volkhov, instead of running it north so the veteran units of 18th Army could concentrate. One panzer is awful far from supply, too. I think these were still the right decisions. This gets both armies poised to attack next turn, rather than wasting time shuffling. [see Leningrad picture above]

Analysis and plans:

I noted possible risks in the air war just above, but my concerns are not too great. My overabundance of recon means I have a good picture of his air unit deployment. It seems decent but I note some weaknesses. For one, his VVS units are not set up well to do partisan supplies. I’ve been picking on his fighters and recon units when I can, and the Luftwaffe should have the upper hand just about everywhere til the late fall withdrawals. At this point, I think Soviet plane losses just about equal their current OOB, so I’ve destroyed half their air force. That’s pretty good. Once I get some Stuka units upgraded to the longer-ranged Ju87D, I’ll try to keep pressure on his MiG, Yak, and IL2 units when I can.

The stronger fort rules in 12.02 are definitely noticeable. There won’t be much negative impact if it takes an extra turn or two to take Odessa - the besieging forces are in much better supply there than they would be marching forward, and my advance schedule is effectively delayed anyway by one or two whole turns in southern Ukraine because of the 25 hex isolation rule/bug. When the Rumanian units are finally free to move up, they will be going through already controlled territory so will make it up to the lower Dnepr a turn faster.

In the northern Ukraine, I hope to take Kiev with infantry over the next couple turns, and threaten a river assault crossing near there by showing some panzers. Hopefully I can keep GamerDad focused on heavily defending that stretch, while I actually prepare 1st PzG to do the real assault farther south. The middle Dnepr around Kiev is vulnerable to flanking attacks (as historically shown in the real Barbarossa), and I expect Soviet forces to quickly withdraw once I get going.

It’s probably pretty clear by now that my normal operational style is to go around, not through, the enemy. Each army group is eyeing the main defense line and hopefully I’ll be able to attack weaknesses in each theater during the next two turns.

Panzers are all set to pocket some Reds NE of Smolensk, if any stay within range. My units are advancing as fast as supply allows, basically, so the light Soviet losses are not too concerning. Once supply catches up to the Soviet line I should be able to get Stalin’s losses back up to 200k+ per turn.

The push on Leningrad will be interesting the next two turns. With a PzK to lead them, 2nd Army should advance well for at least one turn, probably two. I carefully kept any of the new army’s units from being adjacent to the front line so the Soviets might not even notice this turn that there are a dozen infantry divisions poised to barrel into the weakest part of their whole line. Once they do notice, I expect prompt withdrawal from the Luga line to shore up the Tikhvin area.
__________
Turn 7 to-do: - transfer another fighter to AGN air group. Use Jagd/LG2 from 19th LW down south, shuffle transfers north. Turn down escort on ground and airfield attack.





Telemecus -> RE: Turn 6 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (12/27/2019 11:43:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shalkai
Two large attacks against Odessa weaken the fortifications a little bit (4.2 > 3.8) but it’ll take another couple turns to actually seize it.


I would be very interested to see how fast the forts are built up again for the next turn in this patch. Basically how much of the .4 fort reduction will be a net loss. Do you ever notice any difference from using the heavier or heaviest calibre artillery? Have you considered using neb regiments ( as opposed to battalions) too?




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 6 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (12/28/2019 4:47:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shalkai
Two large attacks against Odessa weaken the fortifications a little bit (4.2 > 3.8) but it’ll take another couple turns to actually seize it.


I would be very interested to see how fast the forts are built up again for the next turn in this patch. Basically how much of the .4 fort reduction will be a net loss. Do you ever notice any difference from using the heavier or heaviest calibre artillery? Have you considered using neb regiments ( as opposed to battalions) too?


Soviet fort rebuilding didn't make much progress, only going from 3.80 to 3.84 during their Turn 6.

The big guns make a big difference attacking the forts - during Turn 7, the first attack (with big guns) had a total of 1377 tubes, and Eng/Art totals of 82/55. Second attack (regular field arty) had a total of 1415 tubes, and Eng/Art totals of 79/28. So those siege guns almost doubled the Art value of that first attack.

I didn't have any nebelwerfers down around Odessa. A look at commander report shows the majority of them in my panzer groups, probably not a good place for them. I've still got a lot to learn about optimal SU assignment. :p




Shalkai -> Turn 7 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (12/28/2019 4:53:07 PM)

Axis Turn 7 part A

First glance shows no surprises. GamerDad seems to have stayed on the same defensive lines, at least for the most part, though I won’t know clearly until scouting is done. Five of my interdictions and fifty-odd of his recons are it for battle reports. No partisan activity. One infantry division is it for reinforcements; AGN still has a few CP free so that ID gets railed off toward Leningrad.

Vehicle pool 185k, with 74k used. Rail capacity is 184k on-hand - 10k reserved for units, so 174k ready for supplies, 172k used. No penalty but just barely. I may turn down reserved rail for units another couple percent.

Air: German losses were 3 ftr during interdict and recon; Russian losses were 4 ftr, 2 rec, 5 srec. AGN air has some units with high damaged plane counts, so two Ju88 and one Ju87 gruppes are sent to NR. One Ju88 gruppe from NR and one Bf109e7 tac gruppe from AGC are transferred to AGN, and a fighter gruppe goes from AGS to AGC to keep things balanced. All Axis Minor air forces are in great shape. A few more superfluous recon units are sent back to NR. That gets the Luftwaffe to 56 recon units deployed, with 20 in reserve.
Current Air Doctrine: %fly 5%, GndSup 80/50, GndAtk 100/40, AfdAtk 120/40, Inter 60/40, CityAtk 120/40, FgtInt 60/40.

Ground: Infantry is fatigued due to marching but at least some of them will get to fight this turn. That’ll teach them to complain about blisters! Looking at morale, exp, and %Toe levels show no problems. Supply levels average out to 65%, ammo average is over 100%, and mobile units average 70% fuel. Only 56 PzK, which exploited east of Novgorod last turn, is hurting on fuel - they average 30%. All in all, we are ready to rumble! Supply levels are in the yellow, but as we engage, the FBDs will catch up 30-40 miles per week.

Recon: Time to spy - I’ll shoot for 250-300 recon sorties this turn to spy all I can and tire out Soviet interceptors.
AGS - The screening line behind the Ingulets River and in Krivoi Rog was pulled back. On to the Dnepr for my troops. Heavy recon flights near Sevastopol find no units, and don’t even have to dodge flak guns. Empty? OK, makes sense - No Russian garrison is really needed there for a couple of months. There *is* lots of flak behind Kiev, though. Pilots estimate 250 medium flak guns in Kiev area. Methinks we’re going to be isolating Kiev for a turn or two before we try to take that city.
Leningrad air quality is bad, too - and Osinovets is worse! Some rather battered and dazed Hs126 pilots estimate 285 85mm AA, and 192 76mm AA there. Scratch port bombing off the option list.

I plan for a bit, then make some screenshot plan maps.

Leningrad: Panzers won’t get far, but most of the 2nd Armee is going to get behind Novgorod and flank those heavy Luga defender stacks. The east bank of the Volkhov river is by far the weakest area of the Leningrad defenses.


[image]local://upfiles/60274/D38DC8B829034D31881D3390C885F35D.jpg[/image]




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 7 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (12/28/2019 4:54:38 PM)

Axis Turn 7 part B

Smolensk/Rzhev: Supply depots are close enough so I can try for a pocket north of Smolensk. I’m not sure exactly where I’ll assault yet, but the arrows mark tentative schwerpunkts. Range from rail is going to prevent much action anywhere south of Smolensk this turn.


[image]local://upfiles/60274/129247D023B24DB9B393C3051EE24F8C.jpg[/image]




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 7 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (12/28/2019 6:11:50 PM)

Axis Turn 7 part C

The next evening, I start unit moves with the easy stuff. Finland is just marching forward, no combat. North of Leningrad I put mostly smaller units (broken-down regiments, a brigade) on the Finnish front line to reduce attrition casualties. To the north, Karelian Army advances about 30 miles east towards Lake Onega. The two pocketed divisions north of Vitebsk and the last NKVD regiment in the Pripyat are forced to surrender, cleaning up the tiny pockets I had.

Odessa is bombed twice by 150+ He111 bombers to disrupt the defenses (flak wasn’t bad - I did check first), then waves of German and Romanian troops assault. Three attacks are beaten off, but the defenses are weakened. Fort level drops from 3.84 to 3.16. Two more assaults next turn should seize this port. Fort level should increase to about 3.20-3.25 during Soviet turn 7.

Working my way north, units march forward, and I gather forces for one big battle adjacent to Kiev. GamerDad has three strong divisions at fort level 2.82 northwest of the city. I want them gone, and before they get to fort 3. Luftwaffe does two ground attacks (first one was not too big since I wasn’t sure if all that AA in Kiev would join it - it didn’t) and then three full corps surround and attack, with full air support. Here’s that battle. Definitely worth it, since Soviets lost 3.5k troops, 175 afv, and 24 planes.


[image]local://upfiles/60274/E69FFA2AC69F4B74AD6EB07B34583927.jpg[/image]




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 7 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (12/28/2019 6:19:22 PM)

Axis Turn 7 part D

Working my way north, I get a couple of inf across the Sozh river NE of Gomel. Possible opportunity later in this turn to exploit here further with a PzKorps, but I’ll have to wait and see. I’m basically at limit of supply in this sector; the bridgehead I just made might be enough to cause Soviets to fall back another 50 miles to the Snov river line, which would be fine by me.

Armee Gruppe North sees an opportunity - actually several - and the entire strength of 1st PzG and 2A are instructed to race for Tikhvin and attempt to isolate Novgorod. 41 PzK surrounds six divisions, including the very strong 1st Tank Division, in and around Novgorod. That’s a worthwhile pocket in and of itself.

Meanwhile, most of 2nd Armee, led by 56 PzK, find that the weak defenses reported by the Luftwaffe were really that weak. They advance sixty miles, more than half way to Lake Ladoga, in a single week. Yes, my supply and fuel levels will be bad next turn - but the defensive situation for Leningrad will be worse. The heavy defenses of the ‘Lenin Line’ just became irrelevant. Hardly any of his divisions will even be able to reach the Volkhov river next turn, let alone cross it to contest my advance.


[image]local://upfiles/60274/5ABC8E2AF3DB48C8A4F838DB0F771F93.jpg[/image]




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 7 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (12/28/2019 6:25:30 PM)

Axis Turn 7 Part E

After carefully checking the Soviet lines near Rzhev, a double envelopment looks possible. I pick two schwerpunkt points about eight hexes apart and go for it. The pocket should be small enough to seal tight and big enough to trap 8-10 divisions. It looks like there’s two lines of defenders around Vladimirskoe, where I want the southern attack to go in. This will be tough since the panzers are going to have to fight through several contested woods hexes. The north assault starts at Adreapol and heads east, also through woods but only a single defense line.

It takes me a good 90 minutes to carefully move infantry to start the breakthroughs, do quite a few manual bombing attacks, then bring up panzers and continue the pushes. There was a tough stack at 90,44 which took a full attack from three panzers to push aside. Fights are tough; German air and ground units aren’t going to be doing much next turn. The attacks are successful and meet up 30 miles west of Rzhev. A motorized division detoured far enough east to see if Rzhev has a defensive unit (it does, though scout planes never spotted it despite 15-20 flights). 2nd and 3rd PzGruppes are going to be very low on gas next turn - one unit is right at the 25 hex limit.

The results are worth it - looks like 13 divisions pocketed, plus I shattered or surrendered an army HQ, a good tank div, and several rifle divisions. There is a gaping hole north and west of Rzhev that GamerDad will have to fill, and Rzhev itself should be taken in two or three turns even if he stands and fights there. The pocket took three full panzer corps to make, but I still have the 24th PzK unused with 80%+ fuel stocks southwest of Smolensk. I check options to see if they could be put to good use this turn, by expanding the Rzhev push or pushing towards Gomel, but I decide there’s not much point. Either option would give modest gains but put them too far from rail. Instead I move them slightly further east but save them for next turn.


[image]local://upfiles/60274/E015E634091545E2A884ACE259180EB7.jpg[/image]




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 7 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (12/28/2019 6:30:06 PM)

Axis Turn 7 part F

That should do it for ground combat this turn, now for tidying up. 3rd PzK does a HQBU and refits about six hexes southwest of Cherkassy. I use two more AP to reduce reserved rail for unit moves from 5% to 3%. This leaves me 20 AP in the bank. I’ll eye commander replacements, but probably will save these points so I can get two HQBU next turn and get AGC panzers back into readiness.

Air units in Ukraine move up, then pound Soviet airfields with pretty good results. I pick mostly on good fighters, tac, and recon. Rumanians do quite well. The Hungarians and Slovaks try hitting some small airfields, but end up losing 20 or so planes. I probably did a few too many end-of-turn airfield attacks but the overall loss ratio is good - 444 to 78.

Here’s a screenshot of the Air Loss screen.

[image]local://upfiles/60274/B3DDB61FAA6F4DE2A0894F3864D6E65B.jpg[/image]




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 7 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (12/28/2019 6:33:13 PM)

Here are turn-end pictures for the other map sectors...first Finland. Karelia Army should reach Petrozavodsk in two turns and cut of map-edge rail.

[image]local://upfiles/60274/4E9480A391784B1898718EE02F4A9857.jpg[/image]




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 7 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (12/28/2019 6:38:38 PM)

The Leningrad area (see post above) shows Germans racing the Finns to reach the No Attack line. This advance almost ensures Leningrad will fall.

AGC made a big pocket just west of Rzhev (also see above). 5 Russian divisions lost here this turn, another dozen pocketed. Defenders will be scarcer. :p

The southern half of AGC shows things much quieter around Bryansk and Gomel. Note minimal advances.


[image]local://upfiles/60274/7E64A653856F4D79B7E61E36E6B3F026.jpg[/image]




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 7 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (12/28/2019 6:42:13 PM)

Finally, down in the south, you can see small advances in southern Ukraine. Advances are only 20-40 miles, but we are getting closer to the lower Dnepr.

[image]local://upfiles/60274/F4FE13158B744BBFB26B6A1C6EA78D02.jpg[/image]




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 7 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (12/28/2019 6:53:21 PM)

Axis Turn 7 epilogue

I expect next turn to be fairly quiet. AGN will continue the push to isolate Leningrad against whatever new defenders the Soviets can move in. 41 and 56 PzK will need to rest, while Novgorod is taken and pressure is kept on defenders closer to Leningrad. AGC will deal with the big pocket it made west of Rzhev, and probably not act against Rzhev itself - this turn. Supply might allow an attack now, but I dunno. Three panzerkorps of the four in AGC are going to need fuel and rest. AGS should see Odessa taken, but that’s about it. Railhead will be in Vinnitsa, so Dnepr River will sort of be in supply range. Some panzers are ready, but panzers don’t do major river crossings too well. Infantry will get to the river in numbers this turn but i don’t think in numbers great enough to make a bridgehead. If not Turn 8, then definitely 9. I may do an attack on the city of Kiev to make my opponent think I’m focused there. That will just be a demonstration, though. My real hope is to get a Dnepr bridgehead in one turn, expand it and get panzers filling the second row the next, then do a major breakout the third turn - if the Soviets don’t withdraw. They likely will though once Kiev is seriously threatened with encirclement.

I did some brief checking of important Soviet factories. The KV plant is still in Leningrad when my T7 ended. This turn may be GamerDad’s last chance to rail it out - I’m only twenty miles, I think, from cutting the last rail lline to Leningrad. Kharkov still has the T-34 factory as well. That won’t be threatened til my Turn 11 at the earliest, though, so I doubt it’ll get caught.

Lots of Luftwaffe fighters disappear next turn, so it’s good I’ve killed half the Soviet Air Force so far. Germans will still have more late-model planes, even though the ratio will be lower, so I won’t have to dial back air operations *too* much, I think. Telemecus has spoken of ‘the wall’ for the Luftwaffe after Turn 8, and yes it’s there, but we’ll have to see just how bad it gets.

I know I’ve been mentioning the supply limits, and the 25-hex isolation limit especially, practically every turn. I actually think Morvael et. al have done a rather good job of balancing things, though. Sure, I’m on a leash, and it is certainly tighter than v11.03 was. However, if you look at the map front lines...I’m weeks ahead of historical capture dates. It’s the first week in August, and Leningrad is almost isolated, AGC is over 75% of the way to Moscow, and AGS is much less of a mess than it was in real life. German armored formations historically spent most of their time waiting for gas, or having an advance stall out after a week. That’s happening here in game, somewhere or another, every turn. Really, if that isolation distance bug gets fixed, that’s probably enough. The east distance penalties are starting to bite, and will only get worse as Moscow and Kharkov are neared. This all seems just about right to me. If I’d done a standard advance along the four rail lines the FBDs start on, I’d not be this far ahead of historical advances. More fight from GamerDad would have slowed things, too. However, I bet I’d still be on or slightly ahead of historical rates. Sample size is pretty small so far, and we’re a ways from the fall crunch time, but I like how things are looking with the supply changes right now.

14 hexes to Moscow, 7 to Osinovets.

Total losses at end of Axis Turn 7: Axis 92828 men, 1101 gun, 782 afv, 74 spac. Soviet 1471234 men, 21631 gun, 9165 afv, 2719 spac
Net loss of about 1600 vehicles this turn: 2600 lost, 1000 captured.
Air losses: Axis 82 (this turn), 391 Total. Soviet 537 (this turn), 6995 Total. Axis minor and Ju52 transports were half of that, so only 40 were German combat planes.
Destroyed units: 14 this turn; 1 ArmyHQ, 1 MotDiv, 6 RifleDiv, 1 Fort, and 2 SecRgt were the on-map losses.
OOB shows Germany at 3.39M manpower, Soviet at 3.81M

Soviet ground losses are about 30-40% of their starting totals; I’ve destroyed a third of the Red Army so far. That still leaves them with 60% more artillery and 120% more tanks than the Germans. The air has gone even better; it will take months for the PVO to mount more than a local challenge. The only error of mine that I noticed was one mouse-click that accidently moved an airbase.




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 7 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (1/1/2020 6:21:05 PM)

Axis Turn 8 part A:

First glance shows both pockets held. Defenses south and southwest of Leningrad are still on the Luga river but it looks like some units were pulled off to head east and deal with my breakthrough. Near Moscow, the upper Dnepr river has been abandoned, and the Soviet front line now runs through Rzhev, Vyazma and Bryansk.There has been about a 50 mile retreat from Rzhev all the way down to Chernigov. In Ukraine, there is no withdrawal; Soviet defenses are strong from Kiev all the way to the sea. No partisans and no rail cuts this turn. Axis attrition losses were 14k, a fairly low total since few divisions are actually adjacent to the enemy.

Battle report shows one small airfield attack near Leningrad by 8 Yak-1 and 4 bombers; Bf109s intercepted and shot down 3 of the 4 bombers, with no German losses. That result probably discouraged any further raids on my airbases this turn. My 30 interdiction attacks harassed his movement; German interdiction losses were 10 ftr and 5 bmr, Soviets lost 50+ fighters and 800 ground casualties.

GamerDad did about 40 recon flights, at least some manual I think, mostly focused on my air fields. It doesn’t look like he did enough to realize just how many infantry divisions I have east of the Volkhov river. He definitely didn’t see the fully rested 24 PzK south of Smolensk, and I don’t think he spotted all the panzers building up west of Cherkassy for a future Dnepr river crossing.

Event log notes some Rumanian and Italian divisions unfrozen. JG53 started the wave of air unit withdrawals; that’s about 80 fighters gone west. Everything looks all right in logistics and replacement reports.

Vehicle pool 189k, with 64k used. Rail capacity is 184k on-hand - 6k reserved for units, so 178k ready for supplies, of which 161k was used. No penalty. These numbers and settings look fine, and rail should hopefully be at or near 100% at least until blizzard modifiers hit.

The vehicle pool free number might be higher in this game than in v1.11? I’d have to compare to other games, but it is probably worth a check. If memory serves, Axis usually has 150-160k free vehicles, with 80-110k used, during Aug/Sep clear weather turns. What happens to vehicle pool once we get to mud will be another thing to check.

The Soviet pullbacks mean this will be another advance with light combat turn for AGC - other than finishing that pocketed army.
AGN will push a little along the Luga and try to take Novgorod, while continuing north towards Karelia with the units east of the Volkhov river. AGS may do a demonstration attack on Kiev, and will also look to see if we can cross the Dnepr south of Kiev this turn. Odessa should fall after two or perhaps three attacks. Krivoi Rog is the edge of supply range so there won’t be any real progress towards Dnepro or Zapo this turn.

Time to dig into ground and air unit detailed reports. German ground units are fine - only three PzDiv are at 85% Toe or less; the lowest Inf is at 87%. Morale is fine with only three InfDiv under 75 morale. Axis Minors are all doing fine, ground-wise.

Air Group checks show no major fatigue problems. Four german fighter units have less than 30 planes ready, with high damaged counts. Two Bf109s and a Bf110 group are sent to reserve to rest and recover. Three more Stab schwarms with 0 or 1 ready plane are also sent away. Looking in the reserve, three Ju88 bombers and one Ju87 Stuka look ready for action; I’ll transfer them east at the end of the turn.
Other minor air forces are OK. Most of the Slovak and Hun losses from making those airfield attacks last turn have been made up through replacements.

Moving all the unfrozen units takes about 15k of the unit rail pool, only about half of the total. I do some air field moves and air transfers to stage Luftwaffe planes a bit further forward, then review the recon plane assignments to all the army and panzergroup HQs. Interesting...either 4P airbase got displaced by a Soviet move, or I forgot it and left it south of Pskov last turn. Either way an error on my part.

This is the turn start situation around Leningrad. First order of business will be Novgorod, then extending the salient to cut off Leningrad.







[image]local://upfiles/60274/316B7957669247BC8BAFD2A75FD6B6B6.jpg[/image]




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 7 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (1/1/2020 6:22:54 PM)

Axis Turn 8 part B:

I spend some time on recon, filling in the blanks on the Soviet lines. Moscow has two lines of defense, one about 11 hexes west of the capital, then another only about 6 hexes west. An overflight of Moscow itself finds VERY thick flak (500 guns worth) and loses 3 of the 4 Do17 photorecon bombers. Around Leningrad, Recon can find only one unit that made it east of the Volkhov river, though there are probably a couple more hiding in the swamps.

The Novorod defenders are surrounded and forced to surrender with some sharp battles. 2nd Army HQ promptly moves into the city and then directs its units east and north. Here is a shot of 2nd Army after moves and battles are done.


[image]local://upfiles/60274/45AC0DE43271412A8FB041399A5E004A.jpg[/image]




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 7 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (1/1/2020 6:24:24 PM)

Turn 8 part C:

Manstein in 56 PzK is ordered to wring every last drop from his jerry cans, then push kampfgruppes into both Volkhov (the town near end of said river) and also Tikhvin if it can be reached. Both towns end up occupied, so the rail line is cut in two places. Spies report the tank factories are still in Leningrad. [evil grin] The 15 divisions of 2nd Army and 56 PzK don't look like much spread out over that whole salient, do they? The east side is very porous, but Soviet defenders are almost nonexistent until he rails in something.

[image]local://upfiles/60274/48B590F49D484C5194FBAABA1A70158A.jpg[/image]

56 PzK is spread out, exhausted, ill supplied, and out of fuel (there are only 35 tons of fuel in all four divisions combined), yet happy. Like in France, the panzers are stopped by running out of gas, but only after reaching the coast. The entire east bank of the Volkhov river is under Axis control, and 41 PzK can do a spoiling attack on the west side next turn, if needed. At least 30 whole divisions are trapped, along with seven airfields holding nearly a thousand planes. This pocket battle will go on for months, but the outcome is in little doubt.

The Siege of Leningrad has begun.

That’s probably 400k or 500k total soldiers trapped. Well, even if I can only make a single pocket this turn, it sure is a doozy. My transports will be busy dropping jerry cans on Volkhov and Tikhvin; even 15% fuel will give them enough to reseal the pocket if GamerDad manages to find some units to move north of Volkhov. 41 PzK, down by Novgorod, is a good candidate for HQBU. I’ll check near end of my turn and see how to spend the 70 AP I have stored. My divisions are scattered all around the edge of the huge salient I made (about 7 hexes wide and 12 deep) but I can just manage to keep everyone within 5 hexes of IHQ. The point of the salient, Tikhvin, is 25 hexes from rail head so I’ve just barely managed to keep everyone in normal supply.




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 7 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (1/1/2020 6:29:39 PM)

Turn 8 part D:

In the north, Finnish forces keep advancing through Karelia. They shatter one NKVD regiment and rout another, the only defenders trying to slow them down. Next turn will see the Petrozavodsk north edge rail supply seized; two turns will take them to the Svir river no-attack line.

[image]local://upfiles/60274/D2A6A2183CD8497F96D4494179E16BE5.jpg[/image]




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 7 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (1/1/2020 6:45:03 PM)

Turn 8 part D:

My attention shifts south; let’s try to finish off Odessa. Two large bombing attacks to disrupt, then ground assaults. Odessa starts with a defense CV of 20, and fort level 3.18. First wave is mostly Rumanians; 5.7:1 odds knock fort level down to 1.68, and DCV to 12. A second assault, again all but one Rumanian, sweeps to the city center and forces a surrender. Axis casualties total less than 1500.

[image]local://upfiles/60274/71B44A5B923A4E67A5C702915DC9DC8F.jpg[/image]

I think that was three turns and seven major battles to take a well-fortified city that started at Fort4. That seems pretty reasonable to me; historically the siege took over two months, but it didn’t have two whole corps of well-supported German infantry backed with siege guns there right from the start, either. I did a quick check; Soviet losses are already 74k in my turn, and I haven’t even visited the Rzhev pocket yet.




Telemecus -> RE: Turn 7 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (1/1/2020 6:51:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shalkai
The point of the salient, Tikhvin, is 25 hexes from rail head so I’ve just barely managed to keep everyone in normal supply.


In Halder's diaries he kept on going on about Tikhvin in numerous entries. Yes I guess important, but so are many places. Never understood why historically this was placed as being so important?




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 7 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (1/1/2020 6:56:03 PM)

Turn 8 part E:

Next step is to untangle the mess of two Rumanian and one German army around Odessa. 11th Army (Ger+Rum) is tasked with breaking into the Crimea. 4th Rum Army will be on their left, heading to Zapo. 3rd Rum Army will go to Dnepo, with an independent corp of Germans assigned to OKH to help bust across river lines. It’ll take me two turns at least to sort them all out, but I’ll have the time as railheads are brought forward. Railhead is 90 miles west of Odessa at the moment - I don’t even wanna know how far it is from Zapo. I space the army headquarters out first to remind me which color goes where, then start dancing divisions around. Small Soviet plane forces do a number of interdiction attacks, usually losing a couple of planes each try. They do actually bleed 1 MP off one Rumanian division.

I do most of the moves, but get distracted by looking at possible Dnepr bridgeheads. Hex 89,89 might work. However, it is bedtime, so enough for now.


[image]local://upfiles/60274/E85B6E2F4487487E856103FA4E34F934.jpg[/image]




Telemecus -> RE: Turn 7 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (1/1/2020 6:56:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shalkai
I think that was three turns and seven major battles to take a well-fortified city that started at Fort4. That seems pretty reasonable to me; historically the siege took over two months, but it didn’t have two whole corps of well-supported German infantry backed with siege guns there right from the start, either. I did a quick check; Soviet losses are already 74k in my turn, and I haven’t even visited the Rzhev pocket yet.


Again in Halder's diaries there were numerous pleas from the German military to send in German troops to finish the job quickly. Hitler refused for political reasons - so perhaps if there was some simulation of it tt there should be some political cost (easier Rumanian surrender? fewer Rumanian replacements) for letting the Germans take over.

Also the Soviet Union had a very active defence of Odessa while there - including mounting nearby amphibious operations and counter attacks. So it might be the game is still exagerating the scale of what could be done just with the forces your opponent used?




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 7 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (1/1/2020 7:31:18 PM)

The next day I ponder a few things while at work. First, I need to start a thread in the bug section on the Matrix forums. The ‘supply line follows least MP path’ rule is at best causing some problems and quirky results. Specifically, some hexes around Krivoi Rog are showing as isolated, yet if the supply path was taken to the other railhead available, they’d be several hexes under the limit. I’m going to get a couple screenshots tonight or tomorrow night to show this. I think the supply line rule would work better if it was ‘supply line follows least (MP + distance in hexes) path’. It is really annoying having one hex be at 21 distance from rail, while the adjacent hex says it is 27 hexes.

I’ll have to double-check, but I think there is actually a German unit that was IN supply last turn, but is now ISOLATED by a longer MP path this turn. That is pretty clearly a bug. [This was actually the case, and I reported it in the Matrix support forum. No official notice as of 1/1/2020. O 12.03 patch, where ARE youuuu?]

This weird supply pathing isn’t a total deal breaker, because it is usually resolved in a turn or two after FBDs move the rail heads farther forward. The current Krivoi Rog situation, for example, will be fixed next turn. Rail repair crossed the Dniestr river this turn, so the stupid supply algorithm won’t decide a long, meandering path to Vinnitsa is the only possible one to use, which means it isn’t a valid path once it is 26 hexes or over. To sum it up, if you’re going to make distance the primary factor in determining isolation to be hexes from rail, then you should base the supply path algorithm primarily on hexes, not MP cost. Make it apples and apples.

Grinch, grumble, gripe. OK, I feel better now.

The other thing I mulled over is whether or not to try and make a small bridgehead across the Dnepr this turn. To be truly useful, the bridgehead needs to include a rail bridge over the river. There are three rail bridges available between Kiev and Dnepro. All three have strong stacks holding the east side of the bridge. However, the initial hex I take doesn’t have to be one of those bridges. I already mentioned that 89,89 looks weak enough to take.

Making a one-hex bridgehead now might cause GamerDad to pull back the whole Dnepr defensive line before I have a chance to make a salient or a pocket. I expect he would retreat given how badly his Leningrad defenses just got flanked.

With that said, waiting a turn and then making a bigger crossing won’t be a huge improvement. Crossing will be tougher since he’ll have a few more units and higher fort levels. Even if I have two or three PzK to exploit, a lot of their fuel will be used up crossing the river the same turn bridgehead is made. Panzer maximum penetration distance would be perhaps 12 hexes.

A third option is to attack across the river this turn but not move any unit across to the east side. This would have the benefit of zeroing out fort levels, but not look as threatening. Causing a retreat from 89,89 would probably not cause a complete Soviet withdrawal to the East Delaying that withdrawal for a turn means a turn less digging in on his next defensive line, probably from Kharkov to Poltava. I’ll keep pondering to try and decide which tactic brings the most benefits.

It’s an interesting ‘if:then’ matrix of tactical choices.

This is not a terribly critical decision. Either way I am using the preferred German tactic of going around, not through, strong defensive points or lines. This is just a choice between the relative benefits of when I cross more than anything else. Where is decided by weak points in the defense, whatever turn is chosen.

1SS Mot Brg drives forward to probe the Kremenchug defenses. There are two weak RifleDiv and a Fort there. I really don’t have enough infantry nearby to assault either here or at 89,89. I’ll probably choose not to try and force the river anywhere this turn. Still more to be done in all Army Group areas.

I finish moving units forward from Odessa, then skip up to Kiev and move units closer. The Soviet line is pulled back to the Desna river north of Kiev, which clears a path for 46 PzK to move back north, passing just west of Chernigov. Supply in that sector isn’t great, but it will get them closer to the rest of the 2nd Panzer Group, and they will be in better terrain for later advances. Attention then shifts to AGC and clearing the pocket west of Rzhev. That goes fine, and Soviet losses are approaching 200k so far this turn. The 25 hex leash is bad by Rzhev, so I can’t push my panzers forward to isolate the city this turn.

Meanwhile, 20 Mot division flanks some of the defenders in the Valdai hills. I can’t pocket them, but just going this far means those two rifle divisions are pinned on four sides, and their only withdrawal path takes them northeast around the lake and it will be two full turns before they can get to Vyshny or Torzhok and be of any use once more. They can’t go straight east and help fill in that very skimpy line trying to protect Torzhok.


[image]local://upfiles/60274/AEF2B30511BF46F68A13BF71D33A6DE6.jpg[/image]




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 7 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (1/1/2020 8:14:25 PM)

And now, a break for our sponsors...LOL

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

In Halder's diaries he kept on going on about Tikhvin in numerous entries. Yes I guess important, but so are many places. Never understood why historically this was placed as being so important?



Historically, with the Germans on the west side of the Volkhov river, Tikhvin was the last rail line open to Lake Ladoga. In game terms, if the Germans have Tikhvin, then the port on the east side of Ladoga is suddenly 100+ miles and a couple rivers (25+ MP) from rail. Soviets would have had to replace 10 trains with 10,000 trucks, with basically no supply for Leningrad during mud. Deaths in Leningrad from starvation would have doubled or tripled over their already horrific historical totals. I agree with Halder and the OKH planners that Tikhvin was a critical priority target.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Again in Halder's diaries there were numerous pleas from the German military to send in German troops to finish the job quickly. Hitler refused for political reasons - so perhaps if there was some simulation of it tt there should be some political cost (easier Rumanian surrender? fewer Rumanian replacements) for letting the Germans take over.

Also the Soviet Union had a very active defence of Odessa while there - including mounting nearby amphibious operations and counter attacks. So it might be the game is still exagerating the scale of what could be done just with the forces your opponent used?


Good points there - the Rumanian attacks were hesitant and they let many weeks go by with no attacks at all, which encouraged the Soviets to counterattack and move in reinforcements. If GamerDad had dropped in a third rifle division to replace that fort.region it probably would have cost me at least one more turn.

I may try to do something similar to the historical siege in my next game as the Soviets, and use those Fort3 outlying defenses to bleed the Axis. Your idea of a cost for the Germans to step in is a good one. Since it's political, perhaps 1 AP cost for any attack on Odessa that includes German divisions? Any tweak that costs the Germans or Rumanians something would be nice, as there's only benefits for a German-led assault on Odessa right now.




Shalkai -> Turn 8 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (1/1/2020 8:27:57 PM)

Turn 8 part G:

AGC Infantry advances, generally getting another 30-40 miles east. I still have RailCap left, so AGC HQ is moved from Vilnius to Polotsk. AGN HQ is already in Pskov less than 100 miles from the front, so they’re fine. I don’t have enough trains left to move AGS HQ up to Vinnitsa so they just drive forward.

Final Rzhev area, with red X marking hexes 26+ hexes from my railhead (according to the silly supply pathing, anyway). I've gone as far as I possibly can.

[image]local://upfiles/60274/8BFEB88531CF42608BD448060DD3BE72.jpg[/image]




Telemecus -> RE: Turn 8 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (1/1/2020 8:32:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shalkai
I still have RailCap left, so AGC HQ is moved from Vilnius to Polotsk. AGN HQ is already in Pskov less than 100 miles from the front, so they’re fine. I don’t have enough trains left to move AGS HQ up to Vinnitsa so they just drive forward.


Did you use, or consider, assigning down the SUs to a next level unlocked HQ first? It costs zero points but the SUs will be back in the army group if unlocked the next turn anyway. And this drastically reduces the rail costs for HQs.




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 8 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (1/1/2020 8:39:47 PM)

Another strike force assembles in the Smolensk area to refit and stock up supplies; it is about the same size as the AGS force I am assembling in the south - three PzK and one InfK. Next turn railheads should be past some rough terrain and I should be able to make another lunge closer to Moscow.

Here is the southern half of the AGC sector. My railhead and FBD can be seen on the far left.

[image]local://upfiles/60274/276936BB18FA4DBA9AE8B98019F343B4.jpg[/image]




Shalkai -> RE: Turn 8 - 1st PvP+1st AAR, Shalkai (Axis) vs GamerDad (Soviet), v1.12.0x (1/1/2020 8:58:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shalkai
I still have RailCap left, so AGC HQ is moved from Vilnius to Polotsk. AGN HQ is already in Pskov less than 100 miles from the front, so they’re fine. I don’t have enough trains left to move AGS HQ up to Vinnitsa so they just drive forward.


Did you use, or consider, assigning down the SUs to a next level unlocked HQ first? It costs zero points but the SUs will be back in the army group if unlocked the next turn anyway. And this drastically reduces the rail costs for HQs.


I never considered that at all - great tip! That is now added to my turn sequence notes. I could easily have done that with most/all of the SUs and saved me some trucks and trains. Most of my corps are locked at this point, but the infantry armies and all army groups are still unlocked.

Turn 8 part H:

One thing I noticed the previous evening is that Soviet Interdiction is turned on. It isn’t very effective - I think only one unit lost one MP - and my fighters have been causing serious casualties among his attack planes with virtually no German losses so I’m quite content to let him fritter away planes this way. I’ll try to remember and call out the losses of both sides from Soviet interdiction attacks at the end of the turn. I’m betting it’ll be 300 ground troops against 30 Russian planes or something close to that. I’ll trade a rifle squad for a plane and its crew any day.

I’ve decided my AGS plan should be to do a spoiling attack on the city of Kiev using infantry, but no attacks across the Dnepr this turn. I’ll just have 6th Army infantry divisions move up to the west bank of the river, spread out to disguise my intended attack points, and do the actual crossing in turn 9. This means AGS panzers won’t do much; just drive forward a few hexes and otherwise rest. That also means I can use my AP for HQBU. 41 PzK in AGN and 47 PzK in AGC are given HQBU orders, and any of their divisions under 90% strength are ordered to refit.

Once evening and gameplay time arrives, I continue the advance. The idea of a demonstration attack on Kiev is cancelled. It has three good RD dug in to Fort3.08 and is close terrain. Defensive CV is about 120. I’d be hard pressed to get much more than 1:1 odds. Cherkassy looks more promising - two TD and a Mot, but still Fort2.96 and DCV of 63. Naaaah - I’ll save my troops for next turn.

End turn pic in North Ukraine:


[image]local://upfiles/60274/D8D40E80FD4A45D6B21C5CE55283AC18.jpg[/image]




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