partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (Full Version)

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t001001001 -> partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/16/2019 11:29:01 PM)

The rule book says a division should protect out to 5 hexes vs partizan. I've had rail cut in the very hex a division is deployed in! I took precaution to prevent rail being broke, and it was pointless. The game arbitrarily cut the rail lines anyway, no matter what steps I took to prevent it from happening.

This annoys me.

When the rail broke it put half my entire army out of supply. Since there's no precaution the player can take to protect his rail lines being cut, can you either fix this crap or make it so I have the option of turning off the indefensible plz? This has ruined the game for me.



AlbertN -> RE: partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/16/2019 11:42:52 PM)

It protects its 6 adjacent hexes, not a range of 5 or 6!



Twotribes -> RE: partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/16/2019 11:51:20 PM)

But why would it not protect the hex it sits in?



t001001001 -> RE: partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/17/2019 2:09:45 AM)

Thank you, 2T.

A division camping on a rail has no effect. Partizans will break rail right next to the division commander's office, right in his face, and he won't notice it will he.

This breaks the game. I spend turns of planning and doing all I can to ensure logistics will not be interrupted, then a rail line is cut arbitrarily. This is very annoying.



MOS96B2P -> RE: partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/17/2019 2:43:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: t001001001

Thank you, 2T.

A division camping on a rail has no effect. Partizans will break rail right next to the division commander's office, right in his face, and he won't notice it will he.

This breaks the game. I spend turns of planning and doing all I can to ensure logistics will not be interrupted, then a rail line is cut arbitrarily. This is very annoying.


This is how the game mechanics were when the game was first released. What version of the game are you on? Under version v1.00.02.01 I thought divisions were given an anti-partisan ZOC. This should no longer be happening. If partisans are blowing up railroads next to a division then either it wasn't patched yet or maybe a bug? But again, what version are you playing?



t001001001 -> RE: partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/17/2019 3:00:02 AM)

A rail was cut right in the face of a division requisitioned and posted there specifically to prevent that from happening. In that hex. I won't try to refund the game. But I did throw up my hands in disgust and rage quit. Will wait patiently for this to get fixed [:)]



MOS96B2P -> RE: partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/17/2019 3:13:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: t001001001

A rail was cut right in the face of a division requisitioned and posted there specifically to prevent that from happening. In that hex. I won't try to refund the game. But I did throw up my hands in disgust and rage quit. Will wait patiently for this to get fixed [:)]


Yes, my friend, I understand. I also saw this happen in the original version of the game. That is why I'm asking what version you are on because I thought it was patched already.



Uxbridge -> RE: partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/19/2019 5:55:51 PM)

I'm trying to figure out partisans as well. Doesn't the protection from partisans mean that the hex adjacent to a combat unit protects from the creation of an actual partisan unit, but not rail cutting?

And my question is: when one sees a partisan affected hex, does negligence to move there increase the likelyhood of an unit being created?



MOS96B2P -> RE: partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/19/2019 6:06:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Uxbridge

I'm trying to figure out partisans as well. Doesn't the protection from partisans mean that the hex adjacent to a combat unit protects from the creation of an actual partisan unit, but not rail cutting?

And my question is: when one sees a partisan affected hex, does negligence to move there increase the likelyhood of an unit being created?


My understanding is that a land combat unit will stop both partisan units and rail damage from occurring in the occupied hexagon and all the hexes around the combat unit. So seven hexagons should be free of trouble.

I don't think moving to the location of partisan rail damage is linked to the appearance of partisan units.

Maybe Alvaro will stop by and let us know for sure.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/19/2019 7:31:30 PM)

any land unit 6 hex radius + it's own.



Werewolf13 -> RE: partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/20/2019 6:35:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: t001001001

Thank you, 2T.

A division camping on a rail has no effect. Partizans will break rail right next to the division commander's office, right in his face, and he won't notice it will he.

This breaks the game. I spend turns of planning and doing all I can to ensure logistics will not be interrupted, then a rail line is cut arbitrarily. This is very annoying.


Welcome to the headaches that real life military commanders must deal with and the sometimes devestating impact that partisans can have on military operations.

Keep in mind that partisans are not military, not constrained by military rules and if they're good at what they do then no one - especially not the enemy - knows who they are. They blend in with the local populace - they are the local populace.

Put your thinking cap on. Now think about just how easy it would be to cut a rail line at night on a section of rail not guarded by enemy troops. Think about how big a hex is in Warplan and how much area that covers. A division is usually around 20,000 guys or so and usually barely half are combat troops or maybe 3/4 depending on the time period. Those guys can patrol a rail line but it wouldn't be many doing it and they can't be everywhere at once. Just 3 guys could cut one with very little risk to themselves. Fact of life. Deal with it.

Partisans have been a fact of life for centuries.

Personnaly I think the behavior you are seeing is very realistic and by design. Hopefully it's not a bug and gets removed.

I've been considering getting Warplan. The behavior you have described is one of the reasons why, now.



Werewolf13 -> RE: partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/20/2019 6:36:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: t001001001

A rail was cut right in the face of a division requisitioned and posted there specifically to prevent that from happening. In that hex. I won't try to refund the game. But I did throw up my hands in disgust and rage quit. Will wait patiently for this to get fixed [:)]


You want the game designers to fix something that isn't broke?

Ahhhh - geeez.



MOS96B2P -> RE: partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/20/2019 6:57:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Werewolf13


quote:

ORIGINAL: t001001001

A rail was cut right in the face of a division requisitioned and posted there specifically to prevent that from happening. In that hex. I won't try to refund the game. But I did throw up my hands in disgust and rage quit. Will wait patiently for this to get fixed [:)]


You want the game designers to fix something that isn't broke?

Ahhhh - geeez.


But if you read any of the thread up above you would see that it is not working as designed when partisans blow up track in the ZOC of a land unit. Alvaro Sousa is the game developer and explained how it works about four posts up. I think it has been made to work as intended now which is: no partisan activity within the ZOC of a land unit.

Now the Germans have a reason to take units off the front line and guard their logistics. I bought the game upon release and can say this dilemma of pulling troops out of the line to guard against partisan attacks works very well in the game.



Werewolf13 -> RE: partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/20/2019 7:57:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MOS96B2P


quote:

ORIGINAL: Werewolf13


quote:

ORIGINAL: t001001001

A rail was cut right in the face of a division requisitioned and posted there specifically to prevent that from happening. In that hex. I won't try to refund the game. But I did throw up my hands in disgust and rage quit. Will wait patiently for this to get fixed [:)]


You want the game designers to fix something that isn't broke?

Ahhhh - geeez.


But if you read any of the thread up above you would see that it is not working as designed when partisans blow up track in the ZOC of a land unit. Alvaro Sousa is the game developer and explained how it works about four posts up. I think it has been made to work as intended now which is: no partisan activity within the ZOC of a land unit.

Now the Germans have a reason to take units off the front line and guard their logistics. I bought the game upon release and can say this dilemma of pulling troops out of the line to guard against partisan attacks works very well in the game.



I can't disagree with your take on the issue.

Too bad though I was looking for something a bit more simulation and a bit less game.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/20/2019 9:28:51 PM)

Should be working right in v31



Werewolf13 -> RE: partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/21/2019 12:43:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Should be working right in v31


Define right, please.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/21/2019 1:40:35 PM)

Any land unit will protect it's own hex and the 6 hexes around it from Partisan attacks.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/21/2019 1:46:03 PM)

I just ran through 6 months of the 1942 scenario watching partisans. It is working correctly.

Remember that in scorched earth countries you will damage rail as you take it from the enemy.



Werewolf13 -> RE: partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/21/2019 5:49:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Any land unit will protect it's own hex and the 6 hexes around it from Partisan attacks.


Well - that's that I guess.

Just too gamey for me.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/21/2019 7:53:34 PM)

Why do you think it's gamey?



Werewolf13 -> RE: partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/21/2019 8:30:30 PM)

Why gamey - It is extremely difficult for any army of regulars to completely shut down partisans. It just cannot be done.

1) Partisans are irregulars, they blend in with the locals - they are the locals.
2) They operate in small groups.
3) They can be where the enemy isn't relatively easy.
4) They can and do negatively impact enemy morale - especially so in rear areas with garrison quality troops.
5) Considering the hex size and time scale of Warplan it seems a bit over reaching for any military force to be able to completely nullify the impact of a local partisan presence and definitely not to include the surrounding 6.

To use the example that the OP was having issues with - targets like rail lines can be taken out fairly easily by partisans and with relatively low risk - see my response to the OP. Of course in this example the rail line could be repaired in days if not hours. Could the same be true of roads blown up, electric plants destroyed, high ranking officer asassinated, troops killed while visiting the local ladies of the evening. The list goes on and on. Partisans need to be represented and represented in a way that negatively impacts enemy operations.

Partisans don't always win wars but they can add a level of difficulty that can and does impact the enemy's abilty to fight as effectively as they could.

I provide as relatively contemporary examples: In WW2 - the French, the russians, the viet minh in Vietnam against the French. Post WWII - the afghans and the vietcong. Palestinians in Israel. Isis - I'm sure their are others.

And the grand daddy of 'em all - Americans in our Revolutionary War.

As much as gamers hate RNG - for me the perfect solution would be to use an RNG modified by what ever variables seem appropriate so that partisan activity be represented by both a morale reduction and a logistical hit for any enemy forces in the hex. If the hex is a supply source then the supplies of units depending on that source should also be impacted.

2nd - partisans aren't universal so concentrations of them could be represented by them with counters pointing out their presence. The presence of enemy forces could be one of the variables that reduces the impact of the partisan presence.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/21/2019 9:42:39 PM)

Fairly good practical solution.



abulbulian -> RE: partizans don't work as intended. plz give option to nix (11/22/2019 2:27:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Werewolf13

Why gamey - It is extremely difficult for any army of regulars to completely shut down partisans. It just cannot be done.

1) Partisans are irregulars, they blend in with the locals - they are the locals.
2) They operate in small groups.
3) They can be where the enemy isn't relatively easy.
4) They can and do negatively impact enemy morale - especially so in rear areas with garrison quality troops.
5) Considering the hex size and time scale of Warplan it seems a bit over reaching for any military force to be able to completely nullify the impact of a local partisan presence and definitely not to include the surrounding 6.

To use the example that the OP was having issues with - targets like rail lines can be taken out fairly easily by partisans and with relatively low risk - see my response to the OP. Of course in this example the rail line could be repaired in days if not hours. Could the same be true of roads blown up, electric plants destroyed, high ranking officer asassinated, troops killed while visiting the local ladies of the evening. The list goes on and on. Partisans need to be represented and represented in a way that negatively impacts enemy operations.

Partisans don't always win wars but they can add a level of difficulty that can and does impact the enemy's abilty to fight as effectively as they could.

I provide as relatively contemporary examples: In WW2 - the French, the russians, the viet minh in Vietnam against the French. Post WWII - the afghans and the vietcong. Palestinians in Israel. Isis - I'm sure their are others.

And the grand daddy of 'em all - Americans in our Revolutionary War.

As much as gamers hate RNG - for me the perfect solution would be to use an RNG modified by what ever variables seem appropriate so that partisan activity be represented by both a morale reduction and a logistical hit for any enemy forces in the hex. If the hex is a supply source then the supplies of units depending on that source should also be impacted.

2nd - partisans aren't universal so concentrations of them could be represented by them with counters pointing out their presence. The presence of enemy forces could be one of the variables that reduces the impact of the partisan presence.


Sorry this was a good laugh for me. Do understand the level of this game? Obviously not, if you're thinking that partisans should be playing that much of a role on the east front. The idea that the partisans on the east front were any more than an annoyance to the Germans on the eastern front has been de-bunked (read credible books copyright after 2010). Throughout history partisans have always been romanticized and over-exaggerated as to their contributions. Yes, there were many of Axis divisions behind the lines that helped to deal with partisan activity, but the majority would have been there to rest/refit anyways and those that were 'security' forces were not lightly equipped and poorly trained. Only a few times during the war on the eastern front did the Germans have any sort of (clean-up) operations with several divisions against partisans units. The organization and effectiveness of partisan units (prior to the Kursk offensive partisan units were very active) did increase throughout the war, but still not at a level that this game represents or some people have been advocating for.

So did partisans play a role on the eastern front, sure. Should they be represented in a corps level game that could cut off armies of units from supply or significantly impeded front line units from 'normal' combat operations --> NO! I've already stated how I feel this game should manage partisans in terms of abstract zones, in which Germany (allies could have this as well) could allocate manpower and resources to keep partisans levels in check if the players so chooses. IMO, the whack a mole concept by placing axis units all over conquered hexes and counting hexes is just nonsense and silly.

I also like the idea of a game option to turn off partisan activity until the partisan feature is adjusted to something more feasible and realistic.



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