What makes a good opponent? (Full Version)

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AW1Steve -> What makes a good opponent? (12/10/2019 8:37:36 PM)

I would greatly appreciate it if the Threadsters and forumites could take a moment a list some of the characteristics of people who have been their best opponents. What do you cherish in a opposite number? Thank you in advance. [:D][:)][sm=happy0065.gif]



warspite1 -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/10/2019 8:47:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I would greatly appreciate it if the Threadsters and forumites could take a moment a list some of the characteristics of people who have been their best opponents. What do you cherish in a opposite number? Thank you in advance. [:D][:)][sm=happy0065.gif]
warspite1

Well that's pretty simple..... someone even more incompetent at war gaming, meaning I can actually beat them. Sadly in almost 40 years of trying to win games across the military spectrum I've come across such an individual about 3 times....in total.....[X(]



ITAKLinus -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/10/2019 8:49:10 PM)

Somebody who drinks at least how much I do.


And who gets pleasure from "stuff exploding", without thinking too much who is the owner.



A lot of strategic thoughts, possibly to share to some extent, but a general pleasure in the game whatever happens. I laughed a lot when recently I got 20k japanese killed in one attack I was doing in China. I got the same pleasure when the next turn 30k Chinese died in the same place during a second attack. My adversary the same. That's why I like playing with him.



Also, having roughly the same game knowledge helps a lot.



Last, but not least at all, the fantasy put in the game is something I really enjoy. I like people who are not predictable at all and when they fight, they fight hard. It makes every turn thrilling.


Of course, many players have a different approach. I am talking about what I do like in an enemy.



I can say also what I don't like:
1 - people willing to f@ck you continuously so that the game looks like the compliance I have to do for donors in my daily work...
2 - people recriminating for everything which they don't like (such as "ahhhh you bombed my newly conquered Miri with your Dutch bombers, YOU ARE AHISTORICAL AND GAMEY WE NEED HR!!!!!!" and stuff like that.
3 - cheaters / people not following HRs

More than everything, people who do their own magnificient plan in their minds and then they get angry and quit when you don't do something they expected. For example, I got a guy who fortified Noumea and company from day-1. He created a mega ultra super Maginot line there.
His idea was to bounce my offensive in the place and counterattack.

I instead conquered China and went for N-W Australia surprising him. His perfect plan failed miserably. Accused me of being gamey (after he didn't comply to HRs, btw!!!) and he left.
These players are to avoid completely. Once somebody starts with the cry of "you are a-historical!", raise your guard and open a thread in the "opponents wanted" area. That's my advice.
Of course, some completely foolish a-historical things can be somehow bad in many's eyes. I'm not speaking of that, I am speaking of little things driving the adversary mad with no reason.



AW1Steve -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/10/2019 9:00:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

Somebody who drinks at least how much I do.


And who gets pleasure from "stuff exploding", without thinking too much who is the owner.



A lot of strategic thoughts, possibly to share to some extent, but a general pleasure in the game whatever happens. I laughed a lot when recently I got 20k japanese killed in one attack I was doing in China. I got the same pleasure when the next turn 30k Chinese died in the same place during a second attack. My adversary the same. That's why I like playing with him.



Also, having roughly the same game knowledge helps a lot.



Last, but not least at all, the fantasy put in the game is something I really enjoy. I like people who are not predictable at all and when they fight, they fight hard. It makes every turn thrilling.


Of course, many players have a different approach. I am talking about what I do like in an enemy.



I can say also what I don't like:
1 - people willing to f@ck you continuously so that the game looks like the compliance I have to do for donors in my daily work...
2 - people recriminating for everything which they don't like (such as "ahhhh you bombed my newly conquered Miri with your Dutch bombers, YOU ARE AHISTORICAL AND GAMEY WE NEED HR!!!!!!" and stuff like that.
3 - cheaters / people not following HRs

More than everything, people who do their own magnificient plan in their minds and then they get angry and quit when you don't do something they expected. For example, I got a guy who fortified Noumea and company from day-1. He created a mega ultra super Maginot line there.
His idea was to bounce my offensive in the place and counterattack.

I instead conquered China and went for N-W Australia surprising him. His perfect plan failed miserably. Accused me of being gamey (after he didn't comply to HRs, btw!!!) and he left.
These players are to avoid completely. Once somebody starts with the cry of "you are a-historical!", raise your guard and open a thread in the "opponents wanted" area. That's my advice.
Of course, some completely foolish a-historical things can be somehow bad in many's eyes. I'm not speaking of that, I am speaking of little things driving the adversary mad with no reason.



Boy I couldn't agree more! Of course it's historical. I don't play this game to pretend that I'm Admiral...., I play to pretend that I'm SMARTER than him![:D]



GetAssista -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/11/2019 9:02:36 AM)

What makes a good opponent?
For games in general - creativity and playing for the process more than the result. Guys that would sacrifice fun for the ultimate winning are boring.
For WITP AE - commitment above anything else I think. It's hard to muddle through all the time consuming turns, with occasional setbacks and catastrophic defeats, with mistakes you once realized you've made long ago in the early stages and with no way to correct them. Hard to the point that I don't play PBEMs because I foresee commitment problems on my side [8D] I have the utmost respect for all the forumites here who go through their GC PBEMs for years, sometimes several campaigns simultaneously, writing regular AARs. It's like a second job



dr.hal -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/11/2019 1:13:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL:
It's like a second job

It IS amazingly time consuming with high expectations. At times it feels like the PRIMARY job one has! An excellent opponent need to be understanding that his or her opponent has another life!



kbfchicago -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/11/2019 2:09:15 PM)

Sense of humor through both favorable and unfavorable events



Ian R -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/11/2019 11:54:54 PM)

An axis opponent who doesn't ghost you in early 1943.



IdahoNYer -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/12/2019 3:45:37 AM)

GetAssista hits the target here:


quote:

For games in general - creativity and playing for the process more than the result. Guys that would sacrifice fun for the ultimate winning are boring.



Great short summary - its all about the journey! With a WiTP PBEM campaign, that journey WILL take years.



durnedwolf -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/12/2019 4:02:28 AM)

It's a game. I want someone that has a sense of humor and doesn't get their britches in a bunch when things go south for them.

I'm still in the workforce so for now I look for an opponent that is fine with turns being a little spotty. But someday I'm gunna retire from the workforce and become a professional gamer - lol.



sh0nyu -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/12/2019 6:49:04 AM)

Well I think both opponents must be fair in their style. On the other hand it is nice to have a stubborn opponent not willing to give up if his strategy does not develop properly.

I take part in a game as Allied Commander. We had a heavy carrier battle near Milne Bay on Dec 27th 1941. This battle developed accidently because the Japanese Player took Ambon and Namlea really early. Since he already took Rabaul and Kavieng he decided to pass Torres Strait with a two carrier group. I managed to ambush his force with CAs and CLs and was able to damage Shokaku (heavy damage, heavy fires). Then my cruiser force was mauled heavy by his aircraft and heavy escorts. Since the US carriers were near by I tried to intrecept his heavy escort (thought the carriers were hurrying to Rabaul). First I got a heavy attack from his carrier aircraft. Result: two bomb hits (250kg)on Saratoga (one no explosion), one hit on Lex (60kg) - no more damage than 6 points sys on Saratoga and 4 sys on Lex... pure luck!

The American carrier force retaliated and managed to hit Zuikaku (heavy fires, heavy damage), Ryujo (heavy fires, heavy damage, Ammo Storage) and Zuiho (on fire). We made some more turns and my opponent discovers that he had serious difficulties with the Japanese economy (first time player for Japan).

Long story short: I suggested that we go on until the holidays and he may consider if he wants to start over. I had a really good start and I know he will not make the same mistake twice (unfortunatelly). But The game is a long time engagement - and I would like to see both opponents having fun with this game. He took just half an hour to answer: No, we are going on.

That's what I mean. My opponent is stubborn enough to suffer the consequences of his mistakes (same with me) and I think it is good to give him the possibility to exit out and start over during an early stage of the game. Okay... sorry for this wall of text, just my 2 ct ;)



ITAKLinus -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/12/2019 9:25:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sh0nyu

Well I think both opponents must be fair in their style. On the other hand it is nice to have a stubborn opponent not willing to give up if his strategy does not develop properly.

I take part in a game as Allied Commander. We had a heavy carrier battle near Milne Bay on Dec 27th 1941. This battle developed accidently because the Japanese Player took Ambon and Namlea really early. Since he already took Rabaul and Kavieng he decided to pass Torres Strait with a two carrier group. I managed to ambush his force with CAs and CLs and was able to damage Shokaku (heavy damage, heavy fires). Then my cruiser force was mauled heavy by his aircraft and heavy escorts. Since the US carriers were near by I tried to intrecept his heavy escort (thought the carriers were hurrying to Rabaul). First I got a heavy attack from his carrier aircraft. Result: two bomb hits (250kg)on Saratoga (one no explosion), one hit on Lex (60kg) - no more damage than 6 points sys on Saratoga and 4 sys on Lex... pure luck!

The American carrier force retaliated and managed to hit Zuikaku (heavy fires, heavy damage), Ryujo (heavy fires, heavy damage, Ammo Storage) and Zuiho (on fire). We made some more turns and my opponent discovers that he had serious difficulties with the Japanese economy (first time player for Japan).

Long story short: I suggested that we go on until the holidays and he may consider if he wants to start over. I had a really good start and I know he will not make the same mistake twice (unfortunatelly). But The game is a long time engagement - and I would like to see both opponents having fun with this game. He took just half an hour to answer: No, we are going on.

That's what I mean. My opponent is stubborn enough to suffer the consequences of his mistakes (same with me) and I think it is good to give him the possibility to exit out and start over during an early stage of the game. Okay... sorry for this wall of text, just my 2 ct ;)



Oh you stubborn Germans [:D][:D][&o][&o]


I completely agree with your state of mind. I think you touched very relevant elements, especially the idea of "suffering the consequences of his mistakes" but, being on the other side, giving the option to just surrender.
Especially for Japan, it can be difficoult. It's hard to come back after a lost carrier fight. Still, it's important to pay for the mistakes because it's the only way in which someone can actually learn and improve, avoiding these mistakes in the next game. If it wouldn't be the case, everybody would simply begin a game and then surrender after the first problem, making games both short and qualitatively mediocre.
If you pay for your mistakes, you think twice before getting into mad positions and you grow as a player.


Finally, I guess that one of the most important elements is the willingness to improve as a player rather than just winning.



Encircled -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/12/2019 9:55:20 AM)

Sense of humour essential

And above to just enjoy playing the game as a game, whether winning or losing.



dr.hal -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/12/2019 1:37:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

I'm still in the workforce so for now I look for an opponent that is fine with turns being a little spotty. But someday I'm gunna retire from the workforce and become a professional gamer - lol.


Don't kid yourself durnedwolf, I'm retired and it's still difficult to find the time given all the other things that one must do. This is especially true if you have a "honey, do" list MILES long.



HansBolter -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/12/2019 3:08:42 PM)

Some one who NEVER quits, even when I am sieging Tokyo.



rustysi -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/12/2019 10:19:33 PM)

quote:

It's like a second job


Well, they always say, 'work at something you enjoy'.[;)]

quote:

But someday I'm gunna retire from the workforce and become a professional gamer - lol.


Yup, that's what I thought. Life seem to still get in the way.[:D]

quote:

Some one who NEVER quits, even when I am sieging Tokyo.


Crap. I hope the game would be over of its own accord by then.[:'(]



dasboot1960 -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/12/2019 11:36:16 PM)

I would think it an honorable enough Japanese capitulation if Tokyo were under siege. Not at all like quitting at the first sign of impending doom. I think I'd be more than happy with any IJ oppo who played that far



BBfanboy -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/13/2019 1:14:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dasboot1960

I would think it an honorable enough Japanese capitulation if Tokyo were under siege. Not at all like quitting at the first sign of impending doom. I think I'd be more than happy with any IJ oppo who played that far

True enough, but when you are that close to playing out something that has never happened in a PBEM, it would be nice to play it through for science!



HansBolter -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/13/2019 11:37:35 AM)

The thread starter never said anything about PBEM.

I'm obviously referring to the AI here folks.

The AI can be counted on to never quit.

Best opponent ever.

I'm sieging Tokyo now in March of 1946.



BBfanboy -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/13/2019 3:26:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

The thread starter never said anything about PBEM.

I'm obviously referring to the AI here folks.

The AI can be counted on to never quit.

Best opponent ever.

I'm sieging Tokyo now in March of 1946.

Yeah, but the discussion had got into when a player in PBEM can call it quits and your previous comment seemed to say you would want an opponent to stick with it until Tokyo was taken. I was just saying I can see why that would be interesting to play out. I understand your AI hasn't quit yet and it's still a tough grind. I do want to see your progress and battle post-mortem for that interesting situation. [:)]



GetAssista -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/13/2019 3:57:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Yeah, but the discussion had got into when a player in PBEM can call it quits and your previous comment seemed to say you would want an opponent to stick with it until Tokyo was taken. I was just saying I can see why that would be interesting to play out. I understand your AI hasn't quit yet and it's still a tough grind. I do want to see your progress and battle post-mortem for that interesting situation. [:)]

AI bonuses - higher production, unlimited supply and no need for PPs to revive or transport units - make final stages of siege against AI Japan more challenging compared to human. Challenging in a sense of brute force that is. Human would fold soon in a 1945 ground war w/o supply and inflow of resurrected units. AI has not problems with troops, and accumulates a lot of revived strength in Tokyo and other big cities together with heaps of supply. It is hard to storm those places



HansBolter -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/13/2019 5:32:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

The thread starter never said anything about PBEM.

I'm obviously referring to the AI here folks.

The AI can be counted on to never quit.

Best opponent ever.

I'm sieging Tokyo now in March of 1946.

Yeah, but the discussion had got into when a player in PBEM can call it quits and your previous comment seemed to say you would want an opponent to stick with it until Tokyo was taken. I was just saying I can see why that would be interesting to play out. I understand your AI hasn't quit yet and it's still a tough grind. I do want to see your progress and battle post-mortem for that interesting situation. [:)]



I had to stand down across the board for a week now as I ran the Home Islands almost completely dry on supply. In addition to a plethora of smaller TFs I have 22 Supply Divisions (40 liberty or victory ships with escort capable of carrying 250k supply and 20k fuel) plying back and forth between the HI and SanFran, but somehow managed to run the island dry. A big wave of the SupDivs just finished dumping and another large wave is about a week out.

Standing down everything has allowed the Japanese air force to come alive again to start sending out small Kamikaze attacks.
There are only a handful of bases left in enemy hands on Honshu and all but Tokyo have been reduced to level 4 forts or less.

The week of rest has allowed all of my 4E squadrons to repair and almost all are near full strength for the resumption of the effort. The invasion of Hokkaido is well underway with two Russian armies pressing on Sapporo.

Prior to the stand down daily LCU bombardments at Tokyo were killing close to a division's worth of troops a day. Air bombing was killing at least a brigade's worth a day. Haven't started ship bombardment runs yet as Yokohama is still in Japanese hands, but is at level 4 forts and expect it to fall shortly after resumption of effort. I started pushing massive numbers of divisions into Tokyo in preparation for the first Deliberate Attack when supply ran dry. I now have close to 20k AV stacked in Tokyo with close to 70% of all artillery units on the board.

With basically nothing left for my DS to do, I rested and refitted it in Nagasaki and have sortied it toward Truk, which has been untouched for the entire game and still has a considerable and fresh air force for me to destroy.

Game is at March 23rd now with an end date of May 21st.

I will post an update once I make the first Deliberate Attack at Tokyo.


Oh, and 'dry' is a relative term here when referring to supply. Nagasaki has over 400k and Hiroshima over 270k, but both show as orange. Most of my occupied bases are in a similar state so supply is not flowing to LCUs in contested bases. Nagasaki and Hiroshima are my main 4E bases. All but a few B29s are at Nagasaki and all but a few B17s and B24s are at Hiroshima so the supply needs at those two bases are over the top. In addition to the big runs from SanFran I have started taking supply from former, but now almost abandoned, bases in the Mariana's. Tinian, where the B29s were formerly based, is sitting on 500k supply with almost no need. Several supply TFs have dumped at Utsonimiya in the last few days so supply is starting to flow to the LCUs in Tokyo again.

The Allies have an almost unlimited amount of supply, but getting it to where the fighting is taking place is always a challenge.




BillBrown -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/13/2019 6:59:05 PM)

It is amazing how much supply is needed in 1945/1946 to completely supply the Allied Armada.



dasboot1960 -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/13/2019 7:15:52 PM)

For a minute Hans, I thought you must be playing the Japanese. IMHO, ANY allied player, after suffering the (severe?) psychological impacts of having a bad day for 6 months at the beginning
(if they are careful) Would certainly understand what they were doing with the power at their disposal. It then dawned on me that you are playing the AI. I think I understand from my reading of your posts that a certain amount of creative restraint on the Allies is required early on. No knock here I had forgotten that you are vs AI. I am from over that way, but am east coast now. CHEERS!



dasboot1960 -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/13/2019 7:18:50 PM)

You too, FanBoy. Science matters. Try to imagine the human that would take it. I think it would boil down to a basic choice. Concede or lose your mind



dasboot1960 -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/13/2019 7:40:06 PM)

And for you, Mr Bill, I agree. I am just starting my second job for the emperor. 2 Previous for the JCS none past 5/42. Probably 25 hours in and Trying to complete IJ turn 1 with decent long term consideration in place. To your point. It IS amazing to realize the seaborne support provided by the USA in the Pacific. I am not aware of what the actual tonnage shipped east vs was, or if it would be would be decipherable. I certainly agree with what you say. A picture of an underway replenishment is amazing. trying to imagine that x12+. Underway. Amazing.




So, whoever's reading, I am now going to try and do an AAR. I've never been over there, but here I go. It may well be the sloppiest, optionally timed, most incoherent thing they have aver seen,



dasboot1960 -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/13/2019 7:59:56 PM)

I have too much would



BBfanboy -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/13/2019 10:33:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dasboot1960

I have too much would

There's a way to fix that! Oh, BTW, you misspelled "wood". [;)]



gmtello -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/14/2019 2:24:10 PM)

The most important is to find an opponent who dedícates the Same time than u to the game. A daily turn game made of more than 1300 turns requires the Same level of implication and a similar level of play to get fun . Also complaining players are boring.



gmtello -> RE: What makes a good opponent? (12/14/2019 2:28:35 PM)

Players who search histórical results are boring too. This is just a game



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