Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (Full Version)

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s2tanker -> Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 1:12:23 AM)

Ordered a fleet to bombard. It was set for direct path and high risk.

[image]local://upfiles/46113/5A84550B63154B1681E130F4E256445C.jpg[/image]



s2tanker -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 1:14:22 AM)

Rather than bombarding at night, as fleets usually do, this one hung around the target and was attacked a few times by enemy air totaling 1 torpedo on the BB and 8 bomb hits. This was enough to knock the BB into an escort fleet.

[image]local://upfiles/46113/FC83070C34254969A77AC8DFB6D46635.jpg[/image]



s2tanker -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 1:15:31 AM)

Here's the second air raid. It will soon be the PM phase - no bombardment yet.



s2tanker -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 1:16:53 AM)

Now, during the PM phase, the fleet, minus the BB and the CA detailed to escort it, bombards the target.

[image]local://upfiles/46113/9DE2279A16BF4796A82F2AF51A5E5FDC.jpg[/image]



s2tanker -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 1:18:54 AM)

Lastly, and here's the mystery, the BB that never bombarded somehow managed to expend most of its main battery munitions even though it engaged nothing during the turn.

Any ideas what is going on here?

I think it may be a bug.

[image]local://upfiles/46113/514AF5186F5040AAA468E58DD8B9361D.jpg[/image]



btd64 -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 1:22:21 AM)

I have never set waypoints for a bombardment mission. Waypoints can slow a tf. Where did you set the waypoints?....GP



btd64 -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 1:26:02 AM)

The main armament ammo is a mystery. I've never seen it before....GP



geofflambert -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 1:38:45 AM)

It was too far to go at mission speed. The barbettes are flooded, disabling the main guns.

Edit: The barbettes may have been flooded manually, due to the fire. Looks like the turrets have a round in each gun unfired.



geofflambert -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 1:47:51 AM)

That single torpedo did a heck of a lot of damage. She'll be lucky to get home.



btd64 -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 1:58:48 AM)

As the lizard said, mission speed could be the problem as well. I set cruise. Your tf will then make the final run to the target and then out from the target at full speed....GP



Canoerebel -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 2:12:07 AM)

The bombardment routine is fraught with inexactness and risk. Too often, bombardment at long range results in issues, as the TF is slowed by a need to refuel or an encounter with a sub or with some other nameless gremlin. It either hangs up in the starting hex or at/near the destination hex. In the latter event, it may get chewed on by LBA. That's just part of the game. Eventually, I learned to bombard from close starting position, if at all possible. Later still, I learned that in many cases bombardments are simply not worth the risk. There are circumstances in which they work well and contribute immensely to a campaign, but those are far fewer than intuition initially tells. We love to bombard but its a siren call luring the young player to destruction and dismay.



s2tanker -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 2:13:48 AM)

The fleet speed was cruise. The way point was already passed. As for the barbettes flooded, that's interesting, especially as there is some ammo remaining to be used and the turrets are operational.

One of my concerns is the daylight bombardment. Seems hard to predict.



s2tanker -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 2:15:23 AM)

"Young player..."

Laughs, then wheezes, as is befitting of a 57-year-old.



s2tanker -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 2:16:03 AM)

"Young player..."

Laughs, then wheezes, as is befitting of a 57-year-old.



geofflambert -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 2:18:40 AM)

Says "mission speed"

[image]local://upfiles/37002/DA3508DFFAA44EE4A4C46FF93E0A0330.jpg[/image]



HansBolter -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 9:05:11 AM)

Mission speed is the correct speed to use.

The mission of Bombardment will determine what speed is used when.
Cruise speed will prevent the mission from determining the speed.

The TF started 12 hexes from the target. This is both too far and too close.

Too far for a single phase (night) run at full speed into the target and too close to allow the tactical AI to set up a maximum distance full speed run into the target. The routine gets screwed up when it only needs to run a couple of hexes to get into position for a high speed run. Starting from 20 hexes away would have worked better in this instance allowing the tactical to move at normal speed for a couple of turns before getting into position for the full speed run, which is 9 hexes in this case.

Waypoints will ALWAYS screw up a bombardment run. NEVER use waypoints on bombardment runs. If necessary use regular movement as a Combat TF to get to the exact location you were using waypoints to get to in orderto start your run with a Remain on Station order and then switch over to the Bombarment mission for the next turn.

Have no answer for why a ship that didn't bombard would have lost all of its ammo.



GetAssista -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 9:08:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
It was too far to go at mission speed. The barbettes are flooded, disabling the main guns.

Edit: The barbettes may have been flooded manually, due to the fire. Looks like the turrets have a round in each gun unfired.

Yup, my bet is on flooded magazines too. I've seen it happening before with ships losing all of the main ammo without a surface fight. AFAIR it was also flooding after some air attacks. Ships can also lose the ammo partially for particular turrets if those turrets are hit.



Trugrit -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 11:33:24 AM)


It is not a bug, you just need to develop more skill at running bombardments.
That will come with time. I’ve run some very bad bombardments when I was learning
the game and even some when I knew better. Calling off an attack is not a sign of
weakness.

Bombardment is one of the things that requires a lot of knowledge of game mechanics
to get it right; and even then there are still multiple ways to screw the pooch.

In your example you are way too far out. Your set up is not good.

I don’t like your task force damage numbers because the game will
change the task force speed to full during the run in and any additional
enemy damage can create the sorry condition you find yourself in.

On a bombardment run the game changes the task force from bombardment
at full speed, on the run in, to surface task force at mission speed (cruise), on the run
out, and that can be very bad depending on the situation.

Anything in your path can stop you dead in the area so you need good target recon
before you go in. The right set up, range and speed are the critical things.

The below link describes how I set up and run a bombardment.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4024257
The one edit I would make to my post is this:
“You may get less than 17 because you may burn up some movement or Ops points during the attack”
This will probably not happen but you could still hit something on the full speed run out.




rockmedic109 -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 1:31:18 PM)

I didn't see it on screenshot but another thing that will screw up a bombardment is when the tf is left on "Remain on Station" accidentally. According to Murphy {who was an optimist with a sadistic sense of humor}, this will only happen when the base you are bombarding is under the umbrella of torpedo carrying Nells and Bettys.



s2tanker -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 1:41:43 PM)

The TF was not set to remain.

I did use a waypoint, but the TF had already moved past it.



PaxMondo -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 1:42:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Trugrit


It is not a bug, you just need to develop more skill at running bombardments.
That will come with time. I’ve run some very bad bombardments when I was learning
the game and even some when I knew better. Calling off an attack is not a sign of
weakness.

Bombardment is one of the things that requires a lot of knowledge of game mechanics
to get it right; and even then there are still multiple ways to screw the pooch.

In your example you are way too far out. Your set up is not good.

I don’t like your task force damage numbers because the game will
change the task force speed to full during the run in and any additional
enemy damage can create the sorry condition you find yourself in.

On a bombardment run the game changes the task force from bombardment
at full speed, on the run in, to surface task force at mission speed (cruise), on the run
out, and that can be very bad depending on the situation.

Anything in your path can stop you dead in the area so you need good target recon
before you go in. The right set up, range and speed are the critical things.

The below link describes how I set up and run a bombardment.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4024257
The one edit I would make to my post is this:
“You may get less than 17 because you may burn up some movement or Ops points during the attack”
This will probably not happen but you could still hit something on the full speed run out.



+1

Also, long ago discovered issue in using Waypoints with Bombardment. The general rule is: "don't". Doesn't mean "can't", just recognize if you do you put your TF in jeopardy. So, I only use waypoints on a Bombardment mission when there is no other way and I'm willing to lose the TF to get the mission in. That's gonna be pretty rare …
[;)]



PaxMondo -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 1:46:20 PM)

Oh, and there are no longer any "bugs", so don't use that word in your subject line.

There is no further support, so there are no bugs because there is no longer any fixing.

Truthfully, everything has been discovered and either fixed or a work around found years ago. This is not a new release, it has millions of game play hours on it by highly critical and observant players. Welcome on board!



geofflambert -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 3:47:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: s2tanker

The TF was not set to remain.

I did use a waypoint, but the TF had already moved past it.


If you set a waypoint you're not controlling the set up point. You order TF to move to a certain point and hold station, then order the bombardment. Your TF is set for full refuel, if that waypoint was a friendly base then you would lose ops points refueling before continuing on the bombardment mission. So, send it to a jump off point, say 8 or 9 hexes from the target, then order it to bombard the target. Another thing is the retreat. Your retreat is Truk, so your TF is going to be retreating past some enemy airfields that might attack before you are out of range. In this case I would, say, reset the home port to Kwajalein so the retreat is directly away from any enemy bases.



Kull -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 3:54:11 PM)

Recommend that folks read the entire thread that Trugrit linked. For one thing, his "procedure" is spot-on. For another, we have commentary from the programmer (on 2/13/16):

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm75au

A run-in for the Bombardment will only happen if the range to target (6) is LESS than the mission speed (6).
Looking at code, there seems to be a bit of inconsistency where an equal case is included (run-in/out for mine-laying and fast transport; target range <= 12 hex. These don't even check to see if the mission speed is sufficient, just runs each phase at mission speed as long as with in 13 hexes of their destination.[&:] )
I would suggest for clarity that these range tests either include or exclude equal conditions.
Any preferences???



Taking a look at the "Unofficial Beta" thread, it turns out that he did tweak the "run-in" code as part of the 3/4/16 update (bolded below):

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm75au

3/04/2016: [1125.10]
Fix position in aircraft database list not being restored
Tweak speed run-in to be consistent for missions where mission speed is set
Change to randomize the ship experience due to firing flak, with distinct between combat and non-comabt surface ships
Fix for only ships actually firing AAA count to count towards experience
[allow AI to use replenish air groups on land]
Fix for ports with no potential to show 0 naval support/ shore parties
Fix to show balloon hit message in night phase air phase
Fix to ensure sub-units’ parent is not inactive (no parent is active while subunits in play)



Which means that all run-in code is now consistent, but whether it's based on the first rule or the second isn't specified.



Lokasenna -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/15/2019 5:05:42 PM)

I can tell you exactly what happened. This isn't a bug.

The TF began 12 hexes away from the target. That is too far to get there in one movement phase. You can see that your TF can move a maximum of 9 hexes in a single phase.

While you had it set to Cruise, I'm not sure that a bombardment TF wouldn't override this (they always go in at mission speed, I think).

Setting the target from 12 hexes away, as you did, means that 1 of 2 things will happen:

1) Your TF will pause at 1 mission speed's worth of movement away from the target (9 hexes in this case), or

2) Your TF will proceed to the target in a single day, in this case arriving after the second movement phase, which means that it doesn't have a chance to move again until the next night phase.

It matters which version of the game you are using, as my thread from years ago that you responded to triggered michaelm to make a slight fix in the code to correct an issue that was causing some bombardment TFs to not move full speed when they should have been moving full speed.


And finally, some general advice. When using bombardment TFs, do not set the target until you have moved the TF yourself to within 1 mission speed run away from the target (or closer; I often will close to within 6-7 hexes first if I can). This essentially ensures that the bombardment will go off exactly when and how you intend it to. One last piece to it is that sometimes, if you set Remain On Station while doing all of these same things, you can achieve a morning or daytime bombardment, which generally causes more damage.



obvert -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/16/2019 7:28:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
One last piece to it is that sometimes, if you set Remain On Station while doing all of these same things, you can achieve a morning or daytime bombardment, which generally causes more damage.


+1

Very effective, but your TF will remain in the bombardment hex low on ammo, so if you expect either air strikes or naval combatants nearby then this is not a good option.



PaxMondo -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/16/2019 11:40:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
One last piece to it is that sometimes, if you set Remain On Station while doing all of these same things, you can achieve a morning or daytime bombardment, which generally causes more damage.


+1

Very effective, but your TF will remain in the bombardment hex low on ammo, so if you expect either air strikes or naval combatants nearby then this is not a good option.

+1



HansBolter -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/16/2019 11:41:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
One last piece to it is that sometimes, if you set Remain On Station while doing all of these same things, you can achieve a morning or daytime bombardment, which generally causes more damage.


+1

Very effective, but your TF will remain in the bombardment hex low on ammo, so if you expect either air strikes or naval combatants nearby then this is not a good option.



But it is the only way to recreate what was done historically to isolated atolls that received daytime bombardments for multiple days.

I did this repeatedly in the Mariana's once the threat of counter strikes by the IJN were eliminated.



Ian R -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/16/2019 11:51:57 AM)

I do think it is humorous when someone blames a bad result on:

(a) there is something wrong with the game system

(b) this is a bug

To those whose immediate reaction this is - work out what YOU ARE DOING WRONG.

If you do not have the maturity or concentration to apply yourself to this, there are, perhaps regretfully, some nearly 20 year veterans here who will lose interest.



spence -> RE: Potential bug - odd game play with a bombardment (12/16/2019 2:31:56 PM)

The CL Yubari in the TF has rather low fuel aboard and you have the TF set to "Full Refuel" while the homeport of the TF is Truk. I suspect that the TF used some of its Ops Pts during one of the movement phases to refuel the Yubari. Check to see if the Yubari's fuel is a higher number than in the screenshot you started the thread with.

I have no ideas that would explain the lack of main armament ammo on the BB.



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