Ideal Builds (Full Version)

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shri -> Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 5:46:29 AM)

What should an AXIS player as Germany build by 1941 starting in 1939?
How many Panzers or Mech?
How much Airforce? Anyone builds Navy?

Same for Italy? What can you build? which will be cheap but ok?

Also doesn't that Breakthrough tech basically suck? Heavies are a great tech, how do i swap my units to that? (existing ones) - i cannot find that in the manual.

Secondly, both Poland and the low countries look much tougher than in Strategic Command series.
Third, is Norway conquest essential or can i forget it?
Fourth, how to get Paratroopers to 100% readiness? They reached 95-98% and stop.





aspqrz02 -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 8:00:02 AM)

Norway, well, historically this was important for shipping Swedish Iron Ore to Germany during the Winter months (via Narvik) ... and Germany needs the Iron!

So, in that sense, yes, it is essential.

For Germany, the only navy you should build are Subs ... probably some Transports. You need 30 'Phibs to invade Norway (at least) but any more would be a waste in a historical game ... but given the ahistorical physical structure of Gibraltar you may want to have some to pull of what would have been physically impossible in the real world.

Phil McGregor



shri -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 8:10:04 AM)

In some games you can ignore Norway and they never align with the UK unless invaded and conquered by them.

But it makes sense. Thanks.



aspqrz02 -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 11:13:45 AM)

There was a good chance that Norway would remain neutral *if* the Germans hadn't invaded ... however, *if* they did, then the British *would* blockade ...

Now, yes, Merchant shipping carrying Swedish iron ore could sail down through Norwegian waters to the Baltic and thence to German ports but, well, the British could have made things much more difficult for the Norwegians.

Just like, for instance, they basically bought the entire Tungsten output of Turkey for the duration, at premium prices ... so the Turks couldn't sell it to the Germans (who they didn't particularly trust - Kemal Ataturk had warned his successors not to before he died).

The Brits could have, for example, paid the Norwegians a premium for the use of their Tanker fleet which, if neutral and not shipping *directly* to British ports, the Germans would have had to let pass ... they could have trans-shipped in neutral ports closer to the UK and then have been escorted a much shorter distance within ASW air range, for example.

And the Germans *really* needed that Iron Ore year round.

So, from their point of view, taking Norway was a no-brainer.

If, in the game as it stands, the Germans can get by without Swedish steel for six months of the year, there's a fault in the game's economics.

Phil McGregor



mroyer -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 11:55:33 AM)

Had Narvik not been an option for winter shipment of Swedish iron, couldn't the ore have been shipped south along Swedish rails to southern Swedish ports on the Baltic? I understand that route and those ports didn't have the capacity to meet the full German requirement, but it stands to reason that without Narvik the winter shipments of ore, while reduced (dramatically?), would not go completely to zero.

-Mark R.



aspqrz02 -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 12:07:53 PM)

"Annually from May to November, ore from the Northern region was shipped from the port of Luleå down the Gulf of Bothnia to the German north Baltic ports at Lübeck, Swinemünde, and Stettin. Outside these months, the Gulf of Bothnia froze over, severely restricting supplies, and although an alternate port was available at Oxelösund, south of Stockholm, for the transport of iron ore from the mines in Bergslagen, this facility was unable to supply the full amount required by Germany, and in any case froze over from January to March each year. Luleå remained outside the reach of Royal Navy's patrols but it was estimated that when Luleå and the Baltic ports of Oxelösund and Gävle were open it could only supply around 8m tons, or less than half pre-war imports.

This meant that during the early winter months of the war, Germany had no choice than to transport the majority of its ore along the much further route down Norway’s heavily indented Western coast from Narvik."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_iron-ore_mining_during_World_War_II

- Wikipedia is your friend!



Journier -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 1:37:31 PM)

Italy

For Italy, I use her as the queen of Garrisons to free up all my german troops for fighting.

Economy

The economy of pizza and leaning towers.

If you as Germany hand feed italy 30 production a turn, she can max out her logistics in infantry by Barbarossa, without any manpower issues. Italy gets garbage 20 strength infantry division but they are useful for coastal defense throughout France, and Greece, and Yugoslavia. You will also have a mechanized corps in italy and a armor corps in africa.


Italy however as a nation is a very sad place, they have almost no oil production and require large swaths of oil to be sent from germany for them to use their fleet, or do any armored combat in africa, So after paris falls, I start sending Italy 30
production/ 25 oil a turn if i need her to handle africa herself.


Research

Italy needs to focus on a few things, First off your priority is your land war Max out your assault tech with 4 points, then keep it maxed out as it increases, you start with quite a few assault specialty infantry, if you want to focus on anti tank thats up to you, but ive never noticed a big difference between assault and anti tank specialty.

throw 4 points in breakthrough, for your mech and tank corps that you start with. keep this maxed, all game to keep your tanks high tech and useful to the bitter end. they are your only offensive and defensive weapon sadly on the land.

max out close support 4pt, and interceptors 4 pt. your gonna need the ability to bomb enemy to weaken them.
I always put 1 point in each large warship tech and warship tech, to keep them being upgraded but they are there for show nothing more.

and finally youll have 2 points left in 1939 scenario, you can do with as you will. maybe research more pizza tech.


Italian Africa

I never have any kind of luck against anyone in africa as Italy, other than on the defensive with my 1 tank division and my 1 mech, while the enemy troops are running out of supply.

Your best bet. is lure them into low supply, near one of your own ports thats heavily defended, then fight, with all you got. Eventually you will get your tank corps, and mech corps some experience and they become useful with tech.

I do not see how you as italy can effectively make the crossing from tobruk to alexandria, with any ability to beat a fortified enemy when you get there. Dont try it or youll lose all of africa very quickly.

Fleet- Italy has a large numerous fleet, you wont use it except if you get lucky and for some god awful reason every time i go to use it I almost never find the enemy fleet when the Italians are trying to fight but you better hope you got oil it eats a tremendous amount of oil in a short period of time.




Journier -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 2:17:17 PM)

Germany

The King of the Axis, right next to Romania.

You can build, large swaths of mechanized w/ heavy armor advancement as Germany. im talking 13-15 armored/mechanized in total before barbarossa and rush into Russia with it. you can make it till 1943 before oil problems occur. hopefully by that time you have broken the mighty soviet bear of its manpower advantage and or most of its production so it cant fill replacements.

make sure you pre prep and stop offensive actions before the first blizzard, dig in a bit, then wait out the cold winter unless opportunity arrives.

or you can mix it up with more expensive armor/mech, i never use breakthrough other than the starting units with it. It really isnt very good for combo offense/defense.

If you drag the game out long enough germany gets a new synthetic plant every year in game, for 5 oil, the oil problem becomes less of a problem the longer you go.

Manpower

Germany's greatest weakness is its manpower, and dont worry the Soviets greatest weakness is the same. Especially after you chew through russia's defensive lines repeatedly.
You will start to notice manpower shortages (below 50% )in 43 depending on the kind of attacks your taking, or receiving.

best at that point to just grab your objectives and wait out the end of game unless opportunity arrives. If you continue attacking at this point, you will destroy your greatest weapon.

Germany's greatest weapon

High experience units are the uber weapon of germany. when in 1942-1943 germany has infantry and tanks running around with 80-90% experience, these troops are molded in war, all they know is war and how to kill and will break most everything the soviets set up ahead of them.

Once you bleed yourself of manpower your new garbage 10 year old kids coming into the divisions will ruin your experience level on your troops, and then, you will be no better off than russia.

Good luck



AlbertN -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 2:48:47 PM)

I do not know how you play, but my oil problems are 4 turns after Barbarossa.
With a dozen of armour / mechanized corps, and the Luftwaffe the oil is smoked quickly.

I do agree though on the notion of the Manpower for Germany. Sadly, currently, the game seems to screw Germany over as it upgrades -before- repairing and you risk to have turns where you use 0 manpower to repair, waste 41 manpower as you're 100%, because all the computer do is -upgrade- with all the budget.

On a relevant note, as Germany you'll need a ton of Fighters. Or it is no matter that your ground unit has 90 experience (never achieved that without the Elite trait, and that's like 1-2 units max of the whole German army) - the Allies will smoke your units through air and pound them with infantries later. They won't even need armour once they've 12-15 bombers nuking the life out of 1-2 unit per turn, per front.



Journier -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 3:53:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

I do not know how you play, but my oil problems are 4 turns after Barbarossa.
With a dozen of armour / mechanized corps, and the Luftwaffe the oil is smoked quickly.

I do agree though on the notion of the Manpower for Germany. Sadly, currently, the game seems to screw Germany over as it upgrades -before- repairing and you risk to have turns where you use 0 manpower to repair, waste 41 manpower as you're 100%, because all the computer do is -upgrade- with all the budget.

On a relevant note, as Germany you'll need a ton of Fighters. Or it is no matter that your ground unit has 90 experience (never achieved that without the Elite trait, and that's like 1-2 units max of the whole German army) - the Allies will smoke your units through air and pound them with infantries later. They won't even need armour once they've 12-15 bombers nuking the life out of 1-2 unit per turn, per front.


Oh i agree about the allies smoking us, sir.
The allies in total by 1944 have 1200 production points to burn every turn and far more manpower than you do,
but hopefully at this point russia's manpower should be gone as much as yours. IMO that makes the defense in the east far easier, as long as you can hold out from being bombed 14x in a row by their very large airforce but if you have even a half effective fighter force they cant do it constantly the planes are very costly to repair and recrew luckily.

The allies will be bombing the christ out of you in the west for sure however, and I agree id have another 3+ interceptor groups and AA built in important areas for the west side of germany.

But when I play germany i play on the thought of fighting for a sweet minor victory. Im not sure how you are having oil issues 4 turns after barbarossa start not sure how we are having a completely different experience on that.

quote:

I do not know how you play, but my oil problems are 4 turns after Barbarossa.
With a dozen of armour / mechanized corps, and the Luftwaffe the oil is smoked quickly.


just to be clear we are talking 1939 scenario gameplay start to finish? do you use the german high fleet much by chance?



AlbertN -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 4:15:43 PM)

No - they'd get obliterated in 2 turns if they sail out pratically without chance to do much. The German High Fleet rules the Baltic Sea and that's it!

Just Luftwaffe and Panzers can easily burn 800 + 4turns of production oil at Barbarossa.



jzardos -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 4:56:58 PM)

quote:

You can build, large swaths of mechanized w/ heavy armor advancement as Germany. im talking 13-15 extra corps of this before barbarossa and rush into Russia with it. you can make it till 1943 before oil problems occur.


Crazy talk. Only use u-boats and there no way have that much oil to run around with 13-16 more mech (not even sure how you build all these before June 41) along with starting armor. You do understand mech and armor use the same amount of oil? What custom scenario are you playing on???



Journier -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 5:16:33 PM)

no customized scenario for germany, base game, cutting back upgrades in early portion of game, and pushing all resources toward mechanized, mechanized are cheaper by 60 production points, 600 production points cheaper for 10.

leaving production available to build infantry, fighters, yada yada.



michacey -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 5:29:31 PM)

I have found 2 ways to raise my para's to 100% readiness. 1. Park them in a 9 supply hex next to a HQ. 2. When their readiness reaches 95 -98 use truck supply to kick them up to 100.



Flaviusx -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 6:35:32 PM)

12-13 mech is at the outer limit of what is sustainable in 1941 in terms of oil, unless you have somehow managed to grab middle eastern oil fields.

You can sustain more later on in the war as the new synth plants come online, but by then it is too late.

Some of this depends on your airforce builds, too. My advice: no strat bombers. No tac beyond what you start with. More dive bombers, up to 4-5 total. And you are eventually going to need lots and lots of fighters, with a good deal of them being escort fighters. In 1941 8-9 fighters should be enough, but that will not be enough later on.

I would not rely entirely on the Italians to garrison everything because you are creating problems down the line in terms of Italian surrender. Rather, I say subsidize the Axis minors and get *them* to provide your garrison and security troops. They are far less vulnerable than Italy. That said, eventually the German economy will reach a point where you can indeed give Axis lend lease to all, including Italy. But it is better to spread the wealth than to let it all ride on pizzas. The Axis minors have their own logistic and manpower pools to tap into.

If you do this right, you will cap them all out in time.



Journier -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 6:52:21 PM)

yes absolutely, the axis lend lease is very functional for all minors, bulgaria also is another contributor of garrisons for the wehrmacht, hungary and romania get sent enough resources to keep upgraded and be useful early war troops.

Good point on the Italy surrender issue! I have yet to deal with that but i can see the concern!



AlbertN -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 7:18:57 PM)

As relatively relevant factor, production given away adds / substracts to Specialty Points too.
But to learn to juggle it with manpower caps and logistics is pretty much a must to do over time.

I am just waiting for the fix that splits upgrades to reinforcing budget and that unit toggle is different.
Hopefully we'll get also some 'general' toggles. Like a prioritize reinforce (as long as you can reinforce, you reinforce first).



Journier -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 10:11:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jzardos

quote:

You can build, large swaths of mechanized w/ heavy armor advancement as Germany. im talking 13-15 extra corps of this before barbarossa and rush into Russia with it. you can make it till 1943 before oil problems occur.


Crazy talk. Only use u-boats and there no way have that much oil to run around with 13-16 more mech (not even sure how you build all these before June 41) along with starting armor. You do understand mech and armor use the same amount of oil? What custom scenario are you playing on???


dude, you made me double check myself thinking I was just doing something strange.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/lnkxHN8.gif[/image]
[image]https://i.imgur.com/mOMh6TI.jpg[/image]
[image]https://i.imgur.com/CmxUnDM.jpg[/image]

this is all done by feb 28 1941. note my oil is full, currently when i get later down the road of conquering russia, ill confirm the rest of my story. You guys. so funny.



Flaviusx -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 10:20:58 PM)

I think a lot of players don't quite understand how to manipulate the production system by using garrison mode as you have cleverly done here. (You have to pay to reactive them down the line, sure, but this is great way to frontload production. The Soviets can do this as well on their end, note.)



Journier -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 10:25:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I think a lot of players don't quite understand how to manipulate the production system by using garrison mode as you have cleverly done here. (You have to pay to reactive them down the line, sure, but this is great way to frontload production. The Soviets can do this as well on their end, note.)


I agree a 100% Flavius. thank you sir.



Michael T -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 11:02:51 PM)

Well apples with apples also. You can't compare what you can achieve versus the AI as against a human opponent.

A Human will make your wars much more costly and lots more production will be spent on replacements, so fewer new units.



jzardos -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 11:22:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Journier


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I think a lot of players don't quite understand how to manipulate the production system by using garrison mode as you have cleverly done here. (You have to pay to reactive them down the line, sure, but this is great way to frontload production. The Soviets can do this as well on their end, note.)


I agree a 100% Flavius. thank you sir.


Players that know about WitE know how to use 'static' troops for a benefit, sure. BUT, this does not give you oil. So when I saw your screens it all made sense. Germany has 75 oil in 1941! So this is a comp stomp game and Germany has oil already from the middle east. Good luck getting Germany to 75 oil with a decent human player in 1941. So your idea to go crazy on mech might work against an AI, but no way against a human player.

Why don't you play Michael T or Flaviusx and report back to us on how your 'oodles' of mech strategy carries the day. Have a feeling I know the outcome of these games. You're a funny guy, amuse us.

Don't get me wrong I love mech with heavy armor! Love it! So you're right on with that.



AlbertN -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 11:34:06 PM)

I agree against a player is not going to work.
And you'll need way more infantries (at least from my perspective) to hold the line oil or not.

A good Allied player won't let you take the oil in ME, or that's my experience at least.



Flaviusx -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 11:41:18 PM)

Well, point in fact, I have fielded a 12 mech corps Barbarossa in PBEM. So I know this can be done.

But I also know that it is a stretch and you will be very hard pressed to do more than this with the oil usually available.

With such a force and most of the Luftwaffe in the east, you can expect to lose up to a net 150 oil per turn during the summer turns. This is no joke. With planning, you will have just enough oil on hand to get to mud. But with very little to spare. I think I was down to 250 in the bank in my game by October.



Journier -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/17/2019 11:42:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jzardos

quote:

ORIGINAL: Journier


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I think a lot of players don't quite understand how to manipulate the production system by using garrison mode as you have cleverly done here. (You have to pay to reactive them down the line, sure, but this is great way to frontload production. The Soviets can do this as well on their end, note.)


I agree a 100% Flavius. thank you sir.


Players that know about WitE know how to use 'static' troops for a benefit, sure. BUT, this does not give you oil. So when I saw your screens it all made sense. Germany has 75 oil in 1941! So this is a comp stomp game and Germany has oil already from the middle east. Good luck getting Germany to 75 oil with a decent human player in 1941. So your idea to go crazy on mech might work against an AI, but no way against a human player.

Why don't you play Michael T or Flaviusx and report back to us on how your 'oodles' of mech strategy carries the day. Have a feeling I know the outcome of these games. You're a funny guy, amuse us.

Don't get me wrong I love mech with heavy armor! Love it! So you're right on with that.


Oh boy! I dont have middle east oil. All I have is Romania, lol.

Im currently playing two pbem games, and two AI games on hardest setting as well with the same strategy. The AI games were the precursor to online pbem play to see if it was a possibility, it definitely is.

I agree with you a human creates a far costlier situation to advance. However, not hard enough for you to not create a strong armored force to advance and defend with.

chillax bro.




Michael T -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/18/2019 12:13:56 AM)

It will be nice to actually play a game again some day. After waiting for 3 weeks for the 1.04, still can't play due to bad bugs. So waiting now for 1.04.01. I have this cool Soviet theory I want to try. Ah well. Maybe next week.



Flaviusx -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/18/2019 12:17:52 AM)

I have an interesting Soviet idea as well, so I feel your pain.

It could be brilliant or a total flop in PBEM.



James Taylor -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/18/2019 12:27:30 AM)

Just because you build them doesn't mean you have to use them every opportunity.



Journier -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/18/2019 12:31:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I have an interesting Soviet idea as well, so I feel your pain.

It could be brilliant or a total flop in PBEM.


the current beta patch is fine for PBEM, minor issues but no gamebreakers, playing one game pbem on latest beta im willing to start another one if your open.



Michael T -> RE: Ideal Builds (12/18/2019 12:43:56 AM)

I think the current beta setup is ok for testing. But no way I would actually try to play a PBEM using it. It's to open to abuse or just simple mistakes in file management.



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