39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (Full Version)

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Flaviusx -> 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 1:51:01 PM)

The UK economy is too small. It ought to be at least half again as large. In the alternative, add a fighter to the build queue. Britain ought to have fighter parity with Germany by mid 1940, and this is virtually impossible to do with the present economy.

The British strategic bomber that was removed should be put back into the game as a reinforcement in the build queue set for mid 1940. Eliminating it *and* putting a bunch of flak in Germany was too much. Otherwise, bomber command will not be built until 1941 at the very earliest. It is basically impossible for Britain to cough up 400 production for this item between 1939-40.

Benelux countries should all activate at once, historicity be damned. Otherwise the German will knock out the Dutch by turn 3, and then take out Belgium in a single clear turn sometime during the winter, and odds are good he will get one. This greatly accelerates the German advance in France. Yes, I get that the Dutch wouldn't have done this, but you are going to see the Germans cheese the low countries every single time until and unless you tie them all together as a unit for diplomatic purposes.

I think Sea Lion is probably too easy to pull off right now precisely because of all these issues. Right now as an allied player I would almost insist on either some house rules, or skip the 1939 scenario altogether and play the 1940 scenario which avoids all these problems.



tyronec -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 2:16:25 PM)

Would concur with this, there is just no way that the RAF can achieve any sort of parity with the Luftwaffe in '40 compared with what actually happened. Not sure what form it should take but UK production needs a boost.

On the flip side would take out the bonuses the USA gets that are caused by UK setbacks.
This is not justified on historical grounds and the UK should be able to survive on their own. Further it means that the Allied player can leave the UK poorly defended in the knowledge that an Axis invasion may do them more harm than good.



PanzerMike -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 2:27:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Benelux countries should all activate at once, historicity be damned. Otherwise the German will knock out the Dutch by turn 3, and then take out Belgium in a single clear turn sometime during the winter, and odds are good he will get one. This greatly accelerates the German advance in France. Yes, I get that the Dutch wouldn't have done this, but you are going to see the Germans cheese the low countries every single time until and unless you tie them all together as a unit for diplomatic purposes.



Good point. I never cheese the Low Countries though. I can take out Netherlands in 1 turn usually, 2 if unlucky, in May 1940. So it should not be a real problem. But attacking Netherlands separately in 1939 would probably have sparked a reaction by Belgium. At the very least they would have openend the border with France to let their troops in or something.



Jim D Burns -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 2:31:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
I think Sea Lion is probably too easy to pull off right now


My biggest issue in game regarding Sea Lion isn't production (Though I agree with your statements above), but rather how naval invasions work in game. There is no reason to use naval support in game to protect a landing, you simply sail to the coast and unload the troop and poof you're ashore.

Units should be required to spend one turn offshore so naval assets of the defender can be used to oppose a landing. Trying to keep a defending naval force at sea to oppose such a move doesn't work because navies do not react, so the invader simply goes where your navy isn't. The game needs a way to make invasions risky in the face of defending naval forces, right now they are far too easy to do.

And even worse they are guaranteed to stay in supply, so once ashore they stay ashore. So there needs to be a way to close off supplies that is tied to merchant shipping somehow. That way getting supplies to a port risks your limited merchant marine. Right now your entire merchant marine can sink but supplies magically teleport to ports all over the map. This needs to change, especially if you want to do the pacific right, supply lines must be vulnerable to attack to the point of total destruction.

Jim



Lascar -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 2:50:07 PM)

All of the above are good and valid suggestions and would enhance play balance and historical realism.



Almeron -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 2:59:51 PM)

Here is my suggestions/viewpoint

Airpower is the real name of the game.
Just concentrate all german and italian planes in North France and GB will fall. And the main issue is all planes could attack a single hex. The toughest hex could be broken, and all landings, and para dropps will clear the hex. Perhaps a limited air strike, maybe 5 attack/hex would be better.

And the Benelux states shoud work together.



Flaviusx -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 3:19:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
I think Sea Lion is probably too easy to pull off right now


My biggest issue in game regarding Sea Lion isn't production (Though I agree with your statements above), but rather how naval invasions work in game. There is no reason to use naval support in game to protect a landing, you simply sail to the coast and unload the troop and poof you're ashore.

Units should be required to spend one turn offshore so naval assets of the defender can be used to oppose a landing. Trying to keep a defending naval force at sea to oppose such a move doesn't work because navies do not react, so the invader simply goes where your navy isn't. The game needs a way to make invasions risky in the face of defending naval forces, right now they are far too easy to do.

And even worse they are guaranteed to stay in supply, so once ashore they stay ashore. So there needs to be a way to close off supplies that is tied to merchant shipping somehow. That way getting supplies to a port risks your limited merchant marine. Right now your entire merchant marine can sink but supplies magically teleport to ports all over the map. This needs to change, especially if you want to do the pacific right, supply lines must be vulnerable to attack to the point of total destruction.

Jim


This is a good point. As things stand, you have to preposition you naval units and hope they react to an enemy landing, you cannot actually respond to one during your own turn.

And what makes this worse is that even doing this is suicidal if the enemy has any kind of air force nearby. He will get his licks before you do.

The Royal Navy is basically worthless in preventing Sea Lion under present game mechanics.



AlbertN -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 3:28:27 PM)

UK does not need a production boost at all - but I do agree that naval invasions at the moment are way too easy.
I do agree they should get a 4th fighter in the production queue though to come in July or so. (Admittedly I'd remove 1 of their starting fighters and put 2 in the production queue).

Plus the projection range of 24 hexes with 1 move is way too much.
I disagree with having the need to hold troops in the sea before to invade - but invasion range should be tied to a technology, should start somehow widely smaller than 24, and increase with time to maybe be 12 at best (and then yes for longer invasions you need to keep ships escorting your troop convoys).

Right now the fleets just zap across the map.




gwgardner -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 3:28:48 PM)

I hope Alvaro will not make any balancing changes. There are too many variable ways to play each side for balancing to be required at this time. Let people try different strategies and tactics for a good long while. If a year from now the overwhelming concensus is for balancing, then do it very carefull and gradually.

I've played the Allies mostly, and have tried different things with the UK every single time through. I love that replayability, that need to experiment. I'd be disappointed if anything were set in stone by balancing.

I'd guess the editor is simple enough for players to try such changes as increased production, or even making the Benelux countries all one country.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 3:48:09 PM)

As Britain this is what you should be doing in 1939-1940.

Build escorts, land units, and 2-3 air craft. The land units can be divisions or small corps to garrison coast lines. Build 1 armor. you don't have to reinforce the units in your country just yet that are low.

Guard your upper coast with fleets to intercept invasions. Put a good unit in the port. 1 fleet of old BGs should do the trick. Put 1 bomber.

In the south line the coast. Sit your planes at max range to the coast so airfield bombings can only hit you without escorts. Put a backup fleet on either side of the island within 5 hexes of each potential beach with a 2-3 group intercept force. Keep it out of air sup range but have your air sup in range.

Make one beach a kill zone. Give them a place to land where they can go no where.

Now you have a northern defense, a southern defense, and a counter attack plan.

Africa is easy to defend. It is very hard for the Axis to push past El Alamein as it should be. Garrison Syria and Palestine on the ports and coast. Place a fleet to interdict the Italians and a bomber.

The most important part of all this is the following.
FIGHT FOR FRANCE AS HARD AS YOU CAN!!!!! The longer France holds out the better chance the UK has. Of course don't empty out the UK to defend France.

If you just give them France and not fight for it you deserve to be invaded. You should be able to hold off the Axis until the end of the summer.



Almeron -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 4:02:11 PM)

Dover will be always a weak point against invasion. Narrow hex lines will protects the german from british counterattack (what is an issue on first turn, and the german/italian air units will clear the way. Air attack number/hex are strong factor.



Flaviusx -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 4:04:04 PM)

At 100 points a turn, Britain cannot afford to build escorts, land units, and aircraft and also pour replacements into its mostly cadre army.

A single infantry division cost 60 points. An escort costs 40. Aircraft are around 250 points. (Or 400 for a luxury item like strat bombers.) A single aircraft will require the UK to sit around for three turns minimum and save all its production. Britain doesn't exactly have this luxury of time in September of 1939.

Even with French lend lease (which I tried in my recent game!) the UK comes up short.

It's obvious enough what Britain needs to do. What's less obvious is coming up with the scratch to do it.



Flaviusx -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 4:09:21 PM)

And what Almeron said about Dover. I actually *did* put units on the coast and a full corps on Dover proper. Didn't stop the landing. The luftwaffe just bombed the Wehrmacht ashore. And then it could grind its way forward from that chokepoint with airpower. See my AAR.



Jim D Burns -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 4:36:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa
Put a backup fleet on either side of the island within 5 hexes of each potential beach with a 2-3 group intercept force.


Any British ships within 10 hexes of the French coast will be sunk or damaged by overwhelming German air. Germany can easily pay for the damaged air it suffers in such a fight. The cost to repair/replace said damage to the navy would cripple Britain's economy for a year or more.

The British fleet is useless in stopping or discouraging a Sea Lion. Invasions are too easy in game and stopping supplies flowing into that invasion is impossible once its ashore.

Germany did not give up on invading Britain because of the land army it would face, it gave up because British air and sea power would make feeding the invasion force once it was ashore impossible. That can't happen in game.

Jim



AlbertN -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 4:38:35 PM)

Though didn't you disband the French Airforce? I think that may be key - as it grinds down the Luftwaffe (and planes are costy to replace).

Each Luftwaffe replacement comes with 50 Experience which means they'll lose their starting quality whereas if unopposed at all in France they'll actually simply gain more and more experience.
Allies do not even have oil problem - I've a game ongoing vs the Axis where a RAF fighter has 80 experience in '41 (Due to no Luftwaffe in France, it just bomb anything at random there, each single turn).
Air Experience matters a lot in engagements too by what I saw.




Flaviusx -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 4:46:11 PM)

I disbanded the French air force after it got ground down to nubs and there was no way I was ever going to keep up with the losses.

In the early game the allies just get smoked in air to air combat against the Germans. Same is true for the British. This didn't use to be true, but it is true now after patch 1.04 changed the air game and made it much bloodier. And the allies don't have the economic staying power early on to keep up with this kind of grinding air to combat. The Germans, however, can, with ease.

Only when they meet massed Soviet or American airpower does this start to shift. The French and British are not up to it. It's why I want to see either a bump in British production or a free fighter in the queue.




tyronec -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 4:46:20 PM)

quote:

As Britain this is what you should be doing in 1939-1940.

Build escorts, land units, and 2-3 air craft. The land units can be divisions or small corps to garrison coast lines. Build 1 armor. you don't have to reinforce the units in your country just yet that are low.

Guard your upper coast with fleets to intercept invasions. Put a good unit in the port. 1 fleet of old BGs should do the trick. Put 1 bomber.

In the south line the coast. Sit your planes at max range to the coast so airfield bombings can only hit you without escorts. Put a backup fleet on either side of the island within 5 hexes of each potential beach with a 2-3 group intercept force. Keep it out of air sup range but have your air sup in range.

Make one beach a kill zone. Give them a place to land where they can go no where.

Now you have a northern defense, a southern defense, and a counter attack plan.

Africa is easy to defend. It is very hard for the Axis to push past El Alamein as it should be. Garrison Syria and Palestine on the ports and coast. Place a fleet to interdict the Italians and a bomber.

The most important part of all this is the following.
FIGHT FOR FRANCE AS HARD AS YOU CAN!!!!! The longer France holds out the better chance the UK has. Of course don't empty out the UK to defend France.

If you just give them France and not fight for it you deserve to be invaded. You should be able to hold off the Axis until the end of the summer.

I don't think this actually works.

If Axis put all their effort in to it my expectation is that Axis they could bring off a successful UK invasion. And I don't think the Allies could stop them no matter what they tried.

What actually does mitigate against it is that:
1. Allies get increased US production to compensate.
2. It seriously detracts from using German production towards Barbarossa.



battlevonwar -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 4:59:15 PM)

I can second Cohen_slith's point of view here. The issue is actually not a British one, it's more a Russian one and finding a balance there. Although I do think all these pesky amphibious invasions are a bit too easy they make a player garrison ports!

Allies can grind down the Luftwaffe much more than you think ... 100 points at least and if they're not doing that they're not doing something right. Of course that's something I haven't tried.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

Though didn't you disband the French Airforce? I think that may be key - as it grinds down the Luftwaffe (and planes are costy to replace).

Each Luftwaffe replacement comes with 50 Experience which means they'll lose their starting quality whereas if unopposed at all in France they'll actually simply gain more and more experience.
Allies do not even have oil problem - I've a game ongoing vs the Axis where a RAF fighter has 80 experience in '41 (Due to no Luftwaffe in France, it just bomb anything at random there, each single turn).
Air Experience matters a lot in engagements too by what I saw.






AlvaroSousa -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 5:04:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

As Britain this is what you should be doing in 1939-1940.

Build escorts, land units, and 2-3 air craft. The land units can be divisions or small corps to garrison coast lines. Build 1 armor. you don't have to reinforce the units in your country just yet that are low.

Guard your upper coast with fleets to intercept invasions. Put a good unit in the port. 1 fleet of old BGs should do the trick. Put 1 bomber.

In the south line the coast. Sit your planes at max range to the coast so airfield bombings can only hit you without escorts. Put a backup fleet on either side of the island within 5 hexes of each potential beach with a 2-3 group intercept force. Keep it out of air sup range but have your air sup in range.

Make one beach a kill zone. Give them a place to land where they can go no where.

Now you have a northern defense, a southern defense, and a counter attack plan.

Africa is easy to defend. It is very hard for the Axis to push past El Alamein as it should be. Garrison Syria and Palestine on the ports and coast. Place a fleet to interdict the Italians and a bomber.

The most important part of all this is the following.
FIGHT FOR FRANCE AS HARD AS YOU CAN!!!!! The longer France holds out the better chance the UK has. Of course don't empty out the UK to defend France.

If you just give them France and not fight for it you deserve to be invaded. You should be able to hold off the Axis until the end of the summer.

I don't think this actually works.

If Axis put all their effort in to it my expectation is that Axis they could bring off a successful UK invasion. And I don't think the Allies could stop them no matter what they tried.

What actually does mitigate against it is that:
1. Allies get increased US production to compensate.
2. It seriously detracts from using German production towards Barbarossa.


I didn't say you would prevent an invasion if the Germans put in effort. You just won't be overrun and can delay conquest until the USA comes in. To invade England takes an incredible amount of German effort. It should never be shut down or the German player will never try it. Historically they had a small chance of success. But this is a game.



Flaviusx -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 5:13:45 PM)

The chance of success as things presently stand is far more than small, it's practically a guarantee and that is why you are seeing it happening in most games. If the Germans want to do it, they can do it every time with near certainty. The only question is whether or not it is worth it in the long run.

Britain can in fact delay the march of the Wehrmacht once it gets ashore, and possibly long enough for the US to intervene and enough to compromise Barbarossa as well.

But if the German wants to do this regardless, he can do it. And pick up 5 VPs that way, along with 2 more in Iberia for good measure. (When Spain joins and Portugal gets invaded.) It's a pretty good bet at that point versus Barbarossa. Russia only yields 3 easy VPs.

Going nuts on Britain yields far more. And I think you are going to find more and more Axis players doing just this and running away with the game before summer of 1941. If you are a power gamer, you will do this every time.




AlbertN -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 5:27:48 PM)

What Alvaro said sussists - it's a game.
If Sea Lion is not viable at all, or it's a do or die move (Which translates in anyone attempting and failing tossing the game) it will never be done. Plus it's the only way to gain Spain support as it is now (Something I strongly disagree with).

UK to me seems quite fine in general and eventually the Soviets may struggle at the start but I am not that expert to determine.



battlevonwar -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 5:41:08 PM)

Russians get a lot of momentum in things in '42 but if things have gone very bad for them in '41 it's of little consequence.



MVokt -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 5:43:12 PM)

Sea Lion shouldn't be that easy. Historically, Germans did struggle with Norwegian navy when invading Norway, let alone the UK.




AlvaroSousa -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 5:56:56 PM)

One more suggestion. Set fleets in close ports with lots of AA. Use night moves to avoid German and and support attacks or destroy supply.



Flaviusx -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 7:32:41 PM)

Does night move avoidance persist into the opponent's turn? That is to say, if you put a fleet out there on night move, on the following player turn, will it continue to evade accordingly?

Because if no, this isn't all that helpful.

That said, parking the Royal Navy in London might have saved it in my last game. Duly noted for future reference.




gwgardner -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 8:44:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MVokt

Sea Lion shouldn't be that easy. Historically, Germans did struggle with Norwegian navy when invading Norway, let alone the UK.




It doesn't have to be easy. In my current game for the UK I have:

1) avoided stripping the UK to send troops and air to Egypt, and no BEF to France;
2) built 2 interceptor and 1 tac bomber squadrons by mid-to-late 1940;
3) invested in raising the tech level of interceptors and tac bombers;
4) given supply/upgrade priority to the fighters to get them upgraded;
5) have all air on full support, to intercept any amphibious assault - if the Germans taunt my fighters into intercepting their fighter patrols, so be it;
6) have small naval patrols offshore - I have to be willing to commit the navy to protect the shores;
7) keep up a bombing campaign against German industry, so the Germans have to commit to building AA and using fighters there;
8) If the Germans want to overwhelm my fighters I hit their airfields.

I take losses, but so do they.

I don't know if that is sufficient, but my opponent has not yet dared to try SeaLion this time around.

For Norway, I use subs and naval patrols off the Norwegian ports, and commit the French navy to protecting Oslo. If the Germans position naval air in Denmark I withdraw the French fleet, but keep a close guard on the Narvik coastal area. If the Germans want to contest that, so be it. British divisions are waiting in port to occupy any port that the Germans aren't able to occupy.

I also found out that if French naval units flee to the UK before the fall of France, and no Vichy has been declared, those French ships are impounded and made part of the RN.

Warplan has so many options to try out before changes should be made. Keep the discussion going! Each problem may have possible solutions already in the game.



murdock762 -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 9:07:37 PM)

I think the only way game will be balanced is have different initial setups for games vs AI and a different one for PBEM.

No comment on the balance in regards to PBEM.

For play vs AI, I think the allies need a much smaller starting force or slower economy right at the start.



DicedT -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 9:09:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

As Britain this is what you should be doing in 1939-1940.

Build escorts, land units, and 2-3 air craft. The land units can be divisions or small corps to garrison coast lines. Build 1 armor. you don't have to reinforce the units in your country just yet that are low.

Guard your upper coast with fleets to intercept invasions. Put a good unit in the port. 1 fleet of old BGs should do the trick. Put 1 bomber.

In the south line the coast. Sit your planes at max range to the coast so airfield bombings can only hit you without escorts. Put a backup fleet on either side of the island within 5 hexes of each potential beach with a 2-3 group intercept force. Keep it out of air sup range but have your air sup in range.

Make one beach a kill zone. Give them a place to land where they can go no where.

Now you have a northern defense, a southern defense, and a counter attack plan.

Africa is easy to defend. It is very hard for the Axis to push past El Alamein as it should be. Garrison Syria and Palestine on the ports and coast. Place a fleet to interdict the Italians and a bomber.

The most important part of all this is the following.
FIGHT FOR FRANCE AS HARD AS YOU CAN!!!!! The longer France holds out the better chance the UK has. Of course don't empty out the UK to defend France.

If you just give them France and not fight for it you deserve to be invaded. You should be able to hold off the Axis until the end of the summer.


Alvaro, I'm a bit concerned about what you're saying here. It sounds like for Britain to defeat Sea Lion, they have to carefully place their troops, fleets and aircraft and follow a certain build strategy. This is not going to be obvious to newer players, which means that we have the familiar problem of a handful of experienced players preying on the lesser folk.

It also suggests that Britain is ripe for invasion. This is simply not true: the Germans had neither sufficient seapower or airpower to invade Britain with a reasonable chance of success. If WarPlan's game system doesn't allow the Royal Navy to a reasonable chance of intercepting a German invasion, then we're looking at a fantasy WWII game like Strategic Command rather than a realistic simulation. Which is fine, but a little peculiar, given that WarPlan does have somewhat realistic simulation rules for factors like logistics.

Michael



Flaviusx -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 9:41:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

quote:

ORIGINAL: MVokt

Sea Lion shouldn't be that easy. Historically, Germans did struggle with Norwegian navy when invading Norway, let alone the UK.




It doesn't have to be easy. In my current game for the UK I have:

1) avoided stripping the UK to send troops and air to Egypt, and no BEF to France;
2) built 2 interceptor and 1 tac bomber squadrons by mid-to-late 1940;
3) invested in raising the tech level of interceptors and tac bombers;
4) given supply/upgrade priority to the fighters to get them upgraded;
5) have all air on full support, to intercept any amphibious assault - if the Germans taunt my fighters into intercepting their fighter patrols, so be it;
6) have small naval patrols offshore - I have to be willing to commit the navy to protect the shores;
7) keep up a bombing campaign against German industry, so the Germans have to commit to building AA and using fighters there;
8) If the Germans want to overwhelm my fighters I hit their airfields.

I take losses, but so do they.

I don't know if that is sufficient, but my opponent has not yet dared to try SeaLion this time around.

For Norway, I use subs and naval patrols off the Norwegian ports, and commit the French navy to protecting Oslo. If the Germans position naval air in Denmark I withdraw the French fleet, but keep a close guard on the Narvik coastal area. If the Germans want to contest that, so be it. British divisions are waiting in port to occupy any port that the Germans aren't able to occupy.

I also found out that if French naval units flee to the UK before the fall of France, and no Vichy has been declared, those French ships are impounded and made part of the RN.

Warplan has so many options to try out before changes should be made. Keep the discussion going! Each problem may have possible solutions already in the game.



Respectfully, none of that would stop a determined Sea Lion. You haven't seen it done. I have, and despite piling the UK to the gills with troops.

I also see nothing here about escorts. That is a constant drain on the British treasury trying to keep them up to speed, because an early commitment of subs will in fact chip away at your merchant marine almost immediately.



aspqrz02 -> RE: 39 Scenario Balance Suggestions (1/13/2020 10:12:04 PM)

Historically the Germans lost a Heavy Cruiser to 19th century torpedoes and the rest of the invasion force was forced to turn back by 19th century artillery.

The Norwegian invasion was a close run thing.

Phil McGregor



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