Auto Sub Ops (Full Version)

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King_Solomon -> Auto Sub Ops (2/1/2020 9:17:42 PM)

Total newb, playing .26b, starting a new game, Scenario 002, War in the Pacific: Hakko Ichiu. Playing as Allies vs. Japan, AI Difficulty: Hard. Planning on playing semi-historical for the first six months, setting up my defenses and my supply lines, and letting the AI run it's scripts. I plan on using the Allies Set-Up Spreadsheet to start (an amazing project which I am thankful to have!).

I do have one question: should I play with Auto Sub Ops On or Off? I started the game with it On, thinking since it's my first time saving the world that I could use some help. Will playing with Sub Ops On be worthwhile?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks!
Todd




btd64 -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/1/2020 9:23:15 PM)

Auto subs on will have your subs patrolling the far south seas. So, NO. Setup your sub patrols manually. You'll get better results even with poor early torpedoes. 9 out of 10 gorns agree[:D]....GP



dr.hal -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/1/2020 11:02:45 PM)

Your subs will end up in some very strange locations indeed if you allow the computer to run them, so I agree with btd64, take the time to set them up yourself so that you get use to them (and their torpedo flaws). The Dutch subs and the old "S" class are the ones that will do you the most good as they have torpedoes that actually will explode.



Ian R -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/2/2020 12:46:05 AM)

I'd turn it off; given that you are playing on historical lines for a while, set up bases in Fremantle (Perth), Brisbane and PH for your boats with defective torpedoes, and have them patrol around the edges of the Japanese occupied zone where at least they might give you some early warning of the movements of the KB. They will also gain valuable crew experience. As someone said, the S boats and the Dutch boats will do some damage in the South China Sea.

There are some with very non aggressive skippers that you don't have enough PPs to swap out in the first few months; these guys are perfectly alright for intel gathering.



BBfanboy -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/2/2020 1:56:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

I'd turn it off; given that you are playing on historical lines for a while, set up bases in Fremantle (Perth), Brisbane and PH for your boats with defective torpedoes, and have them patrol around the edges of the Japanese occupied zone where at least they might give you some early warning of the movements of the KB. They will also gain valuable crew experience. As someone said, the S boats and the Dutch boats will do some damage in the South China Sea.

There are some with very non aggressive skippers that you don't have enough PPs to swap out in the first few months; these guys are perfectly alright for intel gathering.

And for sub transport of supplies to beleaguered garrisons ...



jdsrae -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/2/2020 1:56:58 AM)

Sub ops need a fair few clicks to get setup but then it becomes manageable, and as everyone else has said, you will get better results by setting the patrol areas yourself. Once you have sent the subs to a home port, set them to patrol orders and they tend to move out and back on their own. I have noticed that sometimes when they take moderate damage the skipper stays on station, so whenever you see one of your subs get hit check the damage during the orders turn.

I found that it helped me a lot to group USN subs into Divisions and then assign those Divisions to patrol areas.
I haven't played the allies for a while but one of the main challenges is keeping so many forces organised and gainfully employed!

Here is an example Sub Squadron/Division organisation chart that is based on historical organisation that may help.
I like to assign 1xAS tender as the flagship, but that AS is usually docked somewhere with other auxiliaries in a fairly large port. It's for you to decide where the AS ships are home ported and where the SS patrol areas are, but this sort of organisation may help.

The colour coding is for AS and SS Arrivals: 1941 light blue, 1942 dark blue
* indicates which subs have a withdrawal date, so keep an eye on that and make sure they return to a port that lets them withdraw or you will pay PP every day they are late, and they move slowly! (US West Coast or level 9 ports from memory)

The USN soon gets so many subs (Gatos and later) that I didn't bother assigning them to Divisions by name, I just started grouping the subs into 6 boat Divisions. I hope that helps.

[image]local://upfiles/34194/009ADE0B44654038A3E659153AD9057E.jpg[/image]



King_Solomon -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/2/2020 2:22:28 AM)

Makes sense, thank you all for your advice. I like the plan and totally forgot about the old “S” class torpedoes. I’ll add a tab to my first turn orders spreadsheet. I am hoping to create a sort of first turn save template with Kull’s (?) orders entered for futures uses to save myself from entering the orders again and again.

Given the time investment in the first few turns, adding Sub patrols manually is really no big deal. Besides, who am I to argue with a gorn?



CaptBeefheart -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/3/2020 12:21:07 AM)

I'll be a bit of a contrarian here: It depends on how much time you have to play and how much sub warfare interests you. Against a human, you'd definitely want to control your subs. Against the computer, what I used to do was turn on Auto Sub Ops and then manually set up patrol zones about every three months since eventually subs end up in port even with Auto Ops on. You can also think of not actively managing your subs as a handicap to help the computer. That said, if you really enjoy that aspect of warfare, then by all means control subs yourself.

Cheers,
CB



King_Solomon -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/3/2020 12:55:24 AM)

CB - Contrary away, I posed the question to hear all ideas. I do see what you're saying, never thought of that idea and it appears a good way to find balance between auto and manual.

I do think controlling subs manually is the right idea for me this time through, I am a total newb and touching everything will be a perfect hands-on way to learn. Time-wise it will not matter, I am crawling along while getting a grasp of what I hope to accomplish with my forces. Kull's first turn spreadsheet, I honestly doubt I would be working on my first campaign without it, wish I could buy him a beer (or three). Thankfully it appears geared towards setting up your forces historically. Same can be said for those who responded above, I better bring a case of beer. I'm planning on "attempting" to set my forces up like JDSRAE described. The Allies will be flooded with material, I will be fine taking my time and proceeding steadily.

Thanks again for sharing, I am sure I will be trying your method at some point.


Todd



dr.hal -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/3/2020 1:41:14 AM)

Todd, try to save your sub tenders (and aviation tenders as well) during the first few months as they become very useful. Remember that the Dutch have a number as do the Americans in Subic. Try to hold on to Java as long as possible to operate from, but get the tenders out before the island falls. Oz is the staging post for these ships and their attendant subs. This way you don't have to worry about forwarding tenders from the US West coast.



King_Solomon -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/3/2020 2:14:38 PM)

Good advice, I think we'll try just that. Dr. Hal. I was surprised at the number of Sub Tenders in the Pacific, I was expecting a few more. I can see how precious the tenders are and will try to protect them as I create my lines of defense. I'm sure to have a few wander under the bomb sights as I re position them. It's hard to play as the innocent bystander, unknowing what is supposed to happen but I will try.

On a side note, when I was young I found two dusty old volumes of "Silent Victory" from Clay Blair. I loved those books. Moving to the Pacific from WitE/WitW is quite the learning experience. I must learn more patience with this game. But spending hours with an Excel spreadsheet open issuing orders to proceed one day...it's all very addicting!

Thanks again, I really appreciate your guidance!



Scott_USN -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/3/2020 3:57:29 PM)

I always run it as ON but by mid 1942 it seems the AI has lost the ability to run ops. Not sure why but most end up in ports. By this time I have more time to tinker with subs and my Adak subbase is completely built out and I run ops out of it with all the long legged Gato class subs. I use the S and Dutch model in Bismark and Java area. They just don't have the endurance. Even with bad torpedoes the new class US SS do OK from Adak and can surround Japan easily with their endurance. They get good experience at any rate. I only lose a few of them but worth it.

My only question is singular or multi-sub TF? Doesn't seem to make much difference from my few test. But anyone have insight on multi sub vs singular?



btd64 -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/3/2020 4:03:12 PM)

Wolfpacks don't work. Only one sub will fire torpedoes....GP



L0ckAndL0ad -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/3/2020 4:06:22 PM)

I used Auto Sub Ops in my first grand campaign vs AI. It was short, but during that time, my subs were doing quite well, actually. Comparing that to how I handle them now manually, I'd say that the Auto may even be more efficient, because there are so many subs, and I'm such a lazy bastard to keep track of all of them.

I'd say, if you need to automate something in WITP AE to make it less micro-managementy, Auto Subs Ops is a very good option to try.



Scott_USN -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/3/2020 4:07:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: btd64

Wolfpacks don't work. Only one sub will fire torpedoes....GP



Ah OK thanks waste of time then.



Scott_USN -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/3/2020 4:09:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: L0ckAndL0ad

I used Auto Sub Ops in my first grand campaign vs AI. It was short, but during that time, my subs were doing quite well, actually. Comparing that to how I handle them now manually, I'd say that the Auto may even be more efficient, because there are so many subs, and I'm such a lazy bastard to keep track of all of them.

I'd say, if you need to automate something in WITP AE to make it less micro-managementy, Auto Subs Ops is a very good option to try.



Haha I am lazy too and I was hoping wolf packs worked because clicky clicky clicky click click for each individual sub it tiresome. Wouldn't be so bad if they did not do their patrol and most of them end right back in port.



btd64 -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/3/2020 4:11:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: L0ckAndL0ad

I used Auto Sub Ops in my first grand campaign vs AI. It was short, but during that time, my subs were doing quite well, actually. Comparing that to how I handle them now manually, I'd say that the Auto may even be more efficient, because there are so many subs, and I'm such a lazy bastard to keep track of all of them.

I'd say, if you need to automate something in WITP AE to make it less micro-managementy, Auto Subs Ops is a very good option to try.


Once you setup your subs, it's not that hard to manage them. And they will patrol more efficiently....GP



L0ckAndL0ad -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/3/2020 4:26:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_USN
Haha I am lazy too and I was hoping wolf packs worked because clicky clicky clicky click click for each individual sub it tiresome. Wouldn't be so bad if they did not do their patrol and most of them end right back in port.

Well, it's been a while since I saw my double SS TFs attack anyone, but they kinda work one after another I think. They don't attack in the same combat action, but the second sub may attack after the first combat is finished.


quote:

ORIGINAL: btd64
Once you setup your subs, it's not that hard to manage them. And they will patrol more efficiently....GP

Uhm, you have to re-setup them once in a while. Like, when you rebase them. When they get damaged and go for repairs. When you need to send them to some hot spot. When you need a screen of submarines for some operation. Granted, you don't get as much out of them on Auto, but for a more relaxed game, taking something off your plate to deal with other stuff is a good option for people like me, who have trouble with micromanagement side of the game.


ADDED:

It's not like they get some magic bonus if you set them up manually. If the AI sends them to some good bottleneck or parks them next to major ports, like near Tokyo Bay (both of which I saw AI do with my subs on Auto), they work exactly the same as if you were to set them up yourself.



Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/3/2020 4:37:27 PM)

I hate managing subs; is it possible to set auto sub ops in a PBEM game that is already in play?

is it possible to it turn on/ off at will during a campaign?

There is a lot of clicks, hence I tend to neglect them after a while; I think the AI might do a better when I reach the point of game exhaustion

Issue with patrol areas is not so much setting them; but the fact in most cases the sub will return with some damage, so then I would need to disband, repair, set a new patrol. But if it is a base without shipyard or ARD, I need to redeploy to a rear base, repair, then move it back to the forward base, the set a new patrol area... Start getting "not fun" once you reach the couple hundred subs to manage



RangerJoe -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/3/2020 6:20:22 PM)

Leave at least one sub at the sub base, when a sub returns damaged then switch subs. Keep an AR there to repair some serious damage.



rsallen64 -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/4/2020 10:49:49 PM)

I found the best option was not to use auto sub ops, but to set up patrol zones and go from there. As others have mentioned, strange things happen with the auto sub ops. I get this gives the AI an advantage, but the AI part running your auto sub ops does stuff Lockwood and others would never do, so there's that.



Sardaukar -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/5/2020 12:44:40 PM)

It gets bit easier when you find "patrol around"-button. So no need to set patrol zone totally manually.

And check the sub CO, some have abysmal ratings. Hood Naval and decent aggressivenes. Until your sub crews get good experience level, giving them extremely aggressive commander may get them killed. on the other hand, low aggesivenes commanders are too timid and you get less attacks.




HansBolter -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/5/2020 2:05:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

It gets bit easier when you find "patrol around"-button. So no need to set patrol zone totally manually.

And check the sub CO, some have abysmal ratings. Hood Naval and decent aggressivenes. Until your sub crews get good experience level, giving them extremely aggressive commander may get them killed. on the other hand, low aggesivenes commanders are too timid and you get less attacks.





I go the aggressive route in the hope of getting more encounters and more opportunities to increase crew experience.

You still get experience gains even if you are shooting blanks.

I probably take a higher level of losses before my fish become effective, but the Allied side gets sooooo many subs that the losses don't result in any real handicap.

It's interesting to note that in 1946 with the Japanese navy gone and the Home Islands invaded, my hundreds of subs have nothing to do but transport supply.



Kull -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/5/2020 7:13:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

It gets bit easier when you find "patrol around"-button. So no need to set patrol zone totally manually.



+1

This one option spares you an enormous amount of clicking, and still gives you the ability to choose which regions to patrol. It's also much easier to edit the computer-selected patrol points (and linger times), but frankly I don't even bother anymore. Just don't select a land hex as the "patrol around" point, or you'll only get 2 locations, not 3.



CaptBeefheart -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/6/2020 12:45:39 AM)

Scenarios like DBB with the smaller ARDs (such as 3000-ton ones) allow you to create very efficient forward bases for your subs. An ARD, AS and AR at Adak, for instance, will handle about 99% of your sub sorties. Otherwise, it's a PITA to send the more damaged subs back to Prince Rupert or another repair yard.

I'm with Jorge. I eventually get bored with setting up patrol zones and the subs start piling up in port.

Cheers,
CB



btd64 -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/6/2020 1:09:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptBeefheart

Scenarios like DBB with the smaller ARDs (such as 3000-ton ones) allow you to create very efficient forward bases for your subs. An ARD, AS and AR at Adak, for instance, will handle about 99% of your sub sorties. Otherwise, it's a PITA to send the more damaged subs back to Prince Rupert or another repair yard.

I'm with Jorge. I eventually get bored with setting up patrol zones and the subs start piling up in port.

Cheers,
CB


You do have to check your sub bases every other turn or so. That way the subs don't pile up....GP



RangerJoe -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/6/2020 1:23:02 AM)

In your Operations Report, it will state that a sub terminated its patrol and is now in port.



Kursk1943 -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/6/2020 7:40:47 AM)

I bit annoying for me is the game routine that subs with even an engine damage of only 1 leave their patrol zones and auto-disband in their homeports, while subs with a lot more system damage but no engine damage coninue to cruise their patrol zones happily as a pig in the mud...[8|]
Therefore I have to keep a steady and wary eye on the homeports, because the subs with high system damage will immediately leave again for their patrol zones after replenishing and the subs with neglectable engine damage have immediatly auto-disbanded.[:@]



LeeChard -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/6/2020 9:03:02 AM)

Although I run my subs manually I've often wondered if I were to use auto would the computer AI
assign boats to a subtender that I manually place in a port. For instance Townsville?



btd64 -> RE: Auto Sub Ops (2/6/2020 9:18:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LeeChard

Although I run my subs manually I've often wondered if I were to use auto would the computer AI
assign boats to a subtender that I manually place in a port. For instance Townsville?


Nope. The AI won't do that....GP



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