RE: Non BBs don't seem to be bombarding.

RE: Non BBs don't seem to be bombarding. (Full Version)

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alanschu -> RE: Non BBs don't seem to be bombarding. (2/10/2020 9:53:54 PM)
Definitely. It seems to have worked well for me at Akyab for sure. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Naval bombardment of Akyab at 54,45 Japanese aircraft no flights Japanese aircraft losses Ki-48-IIa Lily: 79 damaged Ki-48-IIa Lily: 3 destroyed on ground Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 24 damaged Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 2 destroyed on ground Ki-43-Ia Oscar: 12 damaged Ki-43-Ia Oscar: 3 destroyed on ground Ki-46-II Dinah: 3 damaged Allied Ships BB Resolution BB Ramillies BB Revenge BB Valiant BB Warspite CA Exeter CA Dorsetshire CL Capetown CL Caradoc CL Newcastle CL Dauntless CL Durban CL Danae CL Enterprise DD Norman DD Jupiter DD Isis DD Griffin DD Fortune DD Tenedos DD Scout DD Van Galen DD Isaac Sweers Japanese ground losses: 315 casualties reported Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled Non Combat: 10 destroyed, 39 disabled Engineers: 1 destroyed, 4 disabled Guns lost 31 (10 destroyed, 21 disabled) Vehicles lost 12 (3 destroyed, 9 disabled) Manpower hits 5 Fires 9037 Airbase hits 27 Airbase supply hits 6 Runway hits 16 Port hits 11 Port fuel hits 2 Port supply hits 2 BB Resolution firing at Akyab BB Ramillies firing at 5th Division BB Revenge firing at Akyab BB Valiant firing at Akyab BB Warspite firing at 5th Division CA Exeter firing at Akyab CA Dorsetshire firing at 5th Division CL Capetown firing at Akyab CL Caradoc firing at Akyab CL Newcastle firing at 5th Division CL Dauntless firing at 5th Division CL Durban firing at Akyab CL Danae firing at Akyab CL Enterprise firing at Akyab DD Norman firing at Akyab DD Jupiter firing at 8th Medium Field Artillery Regiment DD Isis firing at 5th Division DD Griffin firing at 5th Division DD Fortune firing at 5th Division DD Tenedos firing at 5th Division DD Scout firing at Akyab DD Van Galen firing at Akyab DD Isaac Sweers firing at 5th Division Two obvious differences include Akyab being held by Japan, and also that this force is much more overwhelming than the mostly cruiser heavy fleet at Port Moresby.

alanschu -> RE: Non BBs don't seem to be bombarding. (2/10/2020 9:57:07 PM)
Interesting is that both didn't really score hits on combat squads. I might be a bit biased to seeing base control as a difference, but it would seem like a reasonable piece of evidence supporting that since I would expect some degree of support units, guns, and whatnot being abstracted as "protecting the base."

Ian R -> RE: Non BBs don't seem to be bombarding. (2/11/2020 12:22:32 AM)
Do you know from previous ground combat if there are any CD guns at Akyab?

BBfanboy -> RE: Non BBs don't seem to be bombarding. (2/11/2020 2:56:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: alanschu Interesting is that both didn't really score hits on combat squads. I might be a bit biased to seeing base control as a difference, but it would seem like a reasonable piece of evidence supporting that since I would expect some degree of support units, guns, and whatnot being abstracted as "protecting the base." It is quite normal for combat squads to rarely be hit while there are many casualties among the support squads. Combat squads would normally be deployed around the perimeter of a base and dug in for combat. Support squads are within the base in cleared areas and have to move around to do their jobs. So I think the game is programmed to abstract that into greater durability for the combat squads, or something that reduces their losses. I have bombarded several locations to extinction and when the support/engineer squads are starting to be destroyed in significant numbers I see the first disrupted combat squads. When support/eng. squads are nearly eliminated, many combat squads have been disrupted and the numbers of destroyed combat squads goes up. Large artillery guns are also hard to destroy by bombardment or bombing.

alanschu -> RE: Non BBs don't seem to be bombarding. (2/11/2020 3:35:30 AM)
quote: Do you know from previous ground combat if there are any CD guns at Akyab? They took it unoccupied and I couldn't confirm if there are any CD guns. I did the attack at distance 14, so I'm inclined to think at this point they probably don't have anything. At least nothing worth worrying about! quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy It is quite normal for combat squads to rarely be hit while there are many casualties among the support squads. Combat squads would normally be deployed around the perimeter of a base and dug in for combat. Support squads are within the base in cleared areas and have to move around to do their jobs. So I think the game is programmed to abstract that into greater durability for the combat squads, or something that reduces their losses. I have bombarded several locations to extinction and when the support/engineer squads are starting to be destroyed in significant numbers I see the first disrupted combat squads. When support/eng. squads are nearly eliminated, many combat squads have been disrupted and the numbers of destroyed combat squads goes up. Large artillery guns are also hard to destroy by bombardment or bombing. Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking as it'd make more sense for the support squads to be centralized. I did it mostly because I needed to hit air operations in the area and it should help. In the context of the thread's comparisons between Akyab and Port Moresby, given that they don't hold the base at PM, I think it might make it more difficult to hit support squads as there is now "BB attacks PM" targets (for obvious reasons). Do wish I had some intel on how much the supply hits were, but the group at PM is getting a supply(-) modifier. It's been an interesting experiment and thanks everyone for the discussion - always nice to feel I understand the game a bit better! One thing I notice is that the raw assault value (even just during land bombard attacks) seems to be trending slowly downwards. Just below 1400 when it was 1420s or so. I'm not sure how impacted by the fog of war that specific number is, given it seems to be slowly trending as I'd expect with the odd disablement of combat squads with air/land/sea bombardments and lack of supply. It's consistently in the same area, but I probably have consistent DL on the hex at this point too.

alanschu -> RE: Non BBs don't seem to be bombarding. (2/11/2020 4:42:49 AM)
So watching the combat animation, there's definitely a lot of action for the Cruiser only bombardment fleet. Whole fleet bombarded with weapons of all kinds. Some even doing both 8" and 5" guns (and their metric equivalents for the Dutch fleet). Attack was at 12,000-13,000 yards. Results for that one did not show any explicit casualties, so I figure that the jungle impacts one of accuracy and/or fog of war reporting (I am still confident that the bombardment did some good in terms of morale/disruption). Their attack was at night, while the BB attack was at the day, which probably also positively impacted results for the BB task force. Totally brain farted and forgot to set a spotter, which I might save my current game and do some extra experiments with some spotting planes. That said, I did notice that the cruisers had full ammo. So I think BBFanboy was correct that the ships actually quickly reloaded before leaving the hex. Anecdotally, it did feel like the air attacks were more effective that day too. All in all though, I'm sure I ruined the evening/day of several Japanese troops :D -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Naval bombardment of Port Moresby at 98,130 Allied Ships CA Minneapolis CA Chicago CL Honolulu CL Hobart CL Tromp CL Sumatra CL Java CLAA Van Heemskerck DD Nizam DD Voyager DD Stuart DD Aylwin DD Dale DD Selfridge DD Maury DD McCall DD O'Brien DD Russell DD Hammann DD Hughes DD Sims DE Whipple CA Minneapolis firing at 4th Brigade CA Chicago firing at 11th Division CL Honolulu firing at 31st Infantry Brigade CL Hobart firing at 66th Infantry Group CL Tromp firing at 4th Brigade CL Sumatra firing at 31st Infantry Brigade CL Java firing at 31st Infantry Brigade CLAA Van Heemskerck firing at 31st Infantry Brigade DD Nizam firing at 11th Division DD Voyager firing at 5th Infantry Brigade DD Stuart firing at 5th Infantry Brigade DD Aylwin firing at 5th Infantry Brigade DD Dale firing at 11th Division DD Selfridge firing at 66th Infantry Group DD Maury firing at 44th Infantry Division DD McCall firing at 4th Brigade DD O'Brien firing at 31st Infantry Brigade DD Russell firing at 31st Infantry Brigade DD Hammann firing at 31st Infantry Brigade DD Hughes firing at 4th Brigade DD Sims firing at 31st Infantry Brigade DE Whipple firing at 4th Brigade -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Naval bombardment of Port Moresby at 98,130 Allied Ships BB New Mexico CA Astoria CA New Orleans CA Northampton CA Portland CL Phoenix CL St. Louis CL Marblehead CL Perth DD Porter DD Ellet DD Benham DD Gridley DD Craven DD Patterson DD Mugford Japanese ground losses: 59 casualties reported Squads: 1 destroyed, 1 disabled Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled BB New Mexico firing at 5th Infantry Brigade CA Astoria firing at 44th Infantry Division CA New Orleans firing at 5th Infantry Brigade CA Northampton firing at 11th Division CA Portland firing at 11th Division CL Phoenix firing at 44th Infantry Division CL St. Louis firing at 44th Infantry Division CL Marblehead firing at 66th Infantry Group CL Perth firing at 44th Infantry Division DD Porter firing at 5th Infantry Brigade DD Ellet firing at 66th Infantry Group DD Benham firing at 44th Infantry Division DD Gridley firing at 5th Infantry Brigade DD Craven firing at 44th Infantry Division DD Patterson firing at 44th Infantry Division DD Mugford firing at 4th Brigade

alanschu -> RE: Non BBs don't seem to be bombarding. (2/11/2020 4:51:45 AM)
Adding recon flights didn't add any explicit casualties to the night attack (spotter plane confirmed in report), though I did get a bit more casualties in the daylight bombardment. That said, changing orders does seem to change the seed for the combat resolution for the turn (as a programmer I find this creative in that it impacts some of the worst case save scumming, while still allowing for a deterministic turn that would otherwise be very handy in reproducing combat scenarios for analysis and/or testing!) so I couldn't explicitly say that the increase is due to the plane, but it was nice to see! Also I realize I've been woefully neglecting my scout planes on my ships as many are not at full strength XD. Joys of playing against AI quickly! Edit: Realize I triple posted. Each post was a bit different in context so didn't think to edit a previous post. Sorry about that!

BBfanboy -> RE: Non BBs don't seem to be bombarding. (2/11/2020 5:52:02 AM)
You do get info on supply hits from naval bombardments and aerial bombing of the AF or port. It is in the combat report, just after the troop casualty results IIRC.

alanschu -> RE: Non BBs don't seem to be bombarding. (2/11/2020 2:15:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy You do get info on supply hits from naval bombardments and aerial bombing of the AF or port. It is in the combat report, just after the troop casualty results IIRC. Yes, but if I control the base in the hex then I'm only bombarding LCUs.

BBfanboy -> RE: Non BBs don't seem to be bombarding. (2/11/2020 10:40:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: alanschu quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy You do get info on supply hits from naval bombardments and aerial bombing of the AF or port. It is in the combat report, just after the troop casualty results IIRC. Yes, but if I control the base in the hex then I'm only bombarding LCUs. Ok - I understand your comment now.

Ian R -> RE: Non BBs don't seem to be bombarding. (2/12/2020 1:37:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: alanschu quote: Do you know from previous ground combat if there are any CD guns at Akyab? They took it unoccupied and I couldn't confirm if there are any CD guns. I did the attack at distance 14, so I'm inclined to think at this point they probably don't have anything. At least nothing worth worrying about! Either that or they are out of ammo/supply. Sending DDs, or 6" cruisers, to bombard a target with 150/155mm/6" or upwards CD guns can turn out poorly. Some of the IJ bases have fortifications with nasty things to shoot back at you; E.G. Mili naval fort has a bunch of 140cm and 150cm guns that will sink bombarding DDs. Unless you have cut the base's supply lines and bombed it for months to disable/destroy the guns, you should limit bombardment to BBs and 8" cruisers (and the latter at near max range). As you get closer you get to Japan, the gun calibres go up. There are a couple of places with 40cm CD guns (about 16.75"). They are the landed equivalent of the Nagato's main rifles. They outrange everything you have afloat. Fortunately they are located in places that make very good training targets for bomber crews and are easy to sweep and escort. Edit: apostrophes.

alanschu -> RE: Non BBs don't seem to be bombarding. (2/12/2020 6:30:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ian R Either that or they are out of ammo/supply. Sending DDs, or 6" cruisers, to bombard a target with 150/155mm/6" or upwards CD guns can turn out poorly. Some of the IJ bases have fortifications with nasty things to shoot back at you; E.G. Mili naval fort has a bunch of 140cm and 150cm guns that will sink bombarding DDs. Unless you have cut the base's supply lines and bombed it for months to disable/destroy the guns, you should limit bombardment to BBs and 8" cruisers (and the latter at near max range). As you get closer you get to Japan, the gun calibres go up. There are a couple of places with 40cm CD guns (about 16.75"). They are the landed equivalent of the Nagato's main rifles. They outrange everything you have afloat. Fortunately they are located in places that make very good training targets for bomber crews and are easy to sweep and escort. Edit: apostrophes. I have definitely run into this in previous games. I think I tried a raid on Truk one time. And I've had my guns shoot back on his landing forces (Port Moresby in particular) and bombardment fleets, so definitely familiar with the risk. I'd be surprised if there was no ammo/supply at Akyab (they'd held it for a month or two, and outside of marginal night attacks I've not tried hitting it). So I feel reasonably confident that (right now) there's nothing too threatening at this point. But I don't have any quick reload location yet so I can't sustain any ship bombardments. I'd have to return to Madras or Colombo to reload the heavy guns, and I did get caught returning from my bombardment with a fleet wandering near Cox's Bazar. I was lucky and didn't get hit by any long lances, but also only got a few shots into a CL as we didn't have much for high calibre ammo. I'm working on focusing on Chittagong's port now, which is level 6 (81% to level 7) to give a closer point to charge from, that also has good air cover. My last UK carrier took a torpedo, and likely won't see action again before needing to be officially withdrawn (not counting Hermes which is still alive, but is always a minor asset at best in my experience.

Lokasenna -> RE: Non BBs don't seem to be bombarding. (2/12/2020 8:09:10 PM)
The range setting for the float planes at night is superfluous. If you don't set a target for the recon, they either won't fly recon missions at night or will only fly against bases in range. The spotter mission is separate from this, and just requires that the planes be set to recon and have at least 1 plane available (and presumably pass a roll of the dice). To save on clicks, I just turn my float planes to night and recon mission, and don't touch the range, rest, etc. They always fly spotter for my bombardments.

Ian R -> RE: Non BBs don't seem to be bombarding. (2/13/2020 12:19:41 AM)
The "separate spotter mission" may be an "undocumented feature", but if so then these two posts are not, on closer examination, inconsistent. quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred Range zero is always recommended by non devs but there is no real benefit in doing so. Setting the range up to normal will generate the same quality intel as a range setting of zero. The view, originally advanced by michaelm75au, of setting a range of zero was to ensure the target bombardment hex only is reconned. However this is actually not guaranteed and there is a far better method of ensuring only the target hex is reconned. Set the on board air unit to have as its target the bombardment hex and irrespective of other nearby hexes, only the target hex gets reconned. This is not the case with a zero range under commander discretion as then any base hex traversed by the TF mght be reconned. You get only one reconning per phase so you don't want to waste it on reconning a non target hex. "Loiter" time [is irrelevant]. The Bombardment TF mission is coded to be undertaken only at night. Human manipulation is needed to get it to deliver a day bombardment. If so manipulated, the on board air unit should be operating during the day, not at night. Alfred quote: ORIGINAL: Lokasenna The range setting for the float planes at night is superfluous. If you don't set a target for the recon, they either won't fly recon missions at night or will only fly against bases in range. The spotter mission is separate from this, and just requires that the planes be set to recon and have at least 1 plane available (and presumably pass a roll of the dice). To save on clicks, I just turn my float planes to night and recon mission, and don't touch the range, rest, etc. They always fly spotter for my bombardments. Edit to add some visual cues.

Lokasenna -> RE: Non BBs don't seem to be bombarding. (2/19/2020 6:27:04 PM)
Worth noting that just in case your bombardment occurs during the day instead of during the night phase, maybe you want one of your FP groups to be set to recon during the day. Still, this occurs in a separate phase than the recon mission that the plane would fly. Mild correction to Alfred's statement about recon range 0 possibly making a plane fly a recon mission on any hex "traversed by" the TF: since the recon mission occurs after the TF has completed its movement, it would only recon the hex that the TF is in. But again, this is irrelevant to the spotter plane mechanic/routine.

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