RE: OT: Corona virus (Full Version)

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obvert -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 1:09:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

As us civil servants like to say......close enough for Government work:


Not really. It's in a completely different Geological area. The one small dot is located right in Yellowstone, but small quakes happen there all of the time, so that wouldn't be so surprising.

I am from these parts, and this is the path the Yellowstone hotspot took (or the continent took over it rather) to create the Craters of the Moon and other features in Idaho. Very far from the current position though.

The map you shared shows the Far Eastern edge of Idaho. Not where those dots are located. If anything, over time the activity should continue to move farther east as the continent moves over the hotspot.

Here is the path of it across Idaho into present position.


[image]local://upfiles/37283/377B8CE306AC4ED698B26BABCF9DCE36.jpg[/image]




HansBolter -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 1:10:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
...
Combined with sporadic reports domestically about poor social distancing practices and ...



I've read that they are contemplating everyone wearing mask in public. USA.


Yup.


The doctor in NY I posted for the second time in this thread mentioned that face masks are useful, but mostly to prevent the person wearing one not touching their face and not coughing on someone else. The most useful protocol is still being a fanatic about cleaning hands and not touching one's face unless you're in constant contact with someone with the disease. The aerosol transmission route is about as likely as catching this from someone flushing the toilet and walking into the flush plume. (So don't share a cubicle with anyone either).

He's a bit long-winded, but it's somewhere around minute 10-15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxyH1rkuLaw


Guess those of us with the nervous habit of biting nails and knawing on knuckles are just SOL.




MakeeLearn -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 1:10:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
...
Combined with sporadic reports domestically about poor social distancing practices and ...



I've read that they are contemplating everyone wearing mask in public. USA.


Yup.


The doctor in NY I posted for the second time in this thread mentioned that face masks are useful, but mostly to prevent the person wearing one not touching their face and not coughing on someone else. The most useful protocol is still being a fanatic about cleaning hands and not touching one's face unless you're in constant contact with someone with the disease. The aerosol transmission route is about as likely as catching this from someone flushing the toilet and walking into the flush plume. (So don't share a cubicle with anyone either).

He's a bit long-winded, but it's somewhere around minute 10-15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxyH1rkuLaw



True. If not used properly a mask will be how one gets infected by the virus.

Morale-wise a mask is Henry V- “Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more”.




RangerJoe -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 1:12:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
...
Combined with sporadic reports domestically about poor social distancing practices and ...



I've read that they are contemplating everyone wearing mask in public. USA.


Yup.


The doctor in NY I posted for the second time in this thread mentioned that face masks are useful, but mostly to prevent the person wearing one not touching their face and not coughing on someone else. The most useful protocol is still being a fanatic about cleaning hands and not touching one's face unless you're in constant contact with someone with the disease. The aerosol transmission route is about as likely as catching this from someone flushing the toilet and walking into the flush plume. (So don't share a cubicle with anyone either).

He's a bit long-winded, but it's somewhere around minute 10-15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxyH1rkuLaw


I would say that you could share the cubicle for doing something as long as you are not going to flush it.

For people with lung issues like asthma, a mask might help since that can keep allergens and other lung irritants out. It should also make breathing easier.




MakeeLearn -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 1:30:44 PM)

During the quarantine:

A woman yells downstairs to her husband: "Hey, you ever get sudden agonizing pain in your chest like someones sticking needles in you, and its hard to breathe?"

Husband: "No"

Wife: ..... ....... "How bout now?"




witpqs -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 1:49:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
...
Combined with sporadic reports domestically about poor social distancing practices and ...



I've read that they are contemplating everyone wearing mask in public. USA.


Yup.


The doctor in NY I posted for the second time in this thread mentioned that face masks are useful, but mostly to prevent the person wearing one not touching their face and not coughing on someone else. The most useful protocol is still being a fanatic about cleaning hands and not touching one's face unless you're in constant contact with someone with the disease. The aerosol transmission route is about as likely as catching this from someone flushing the toilet and walking into the flush plume. (So don't share a cubicle with anyone either).

He's a bit long-winded, but it's somewhere around minute 10-15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxyH1rkuLaw


I would say that you could share the cubicle for doing something as long as you are not going to flush it.

For people with lung issues like asthma, a mask might help since that can keep allergens and other lung irritants out. It should also make breathing easier.

According to the interview I posted yesterday, it is present in aerosol just from breathing. The amount varies by the infected person, and the farther away you are the less chance of catching it.

A quotation from an interview I am listening to right now: "If you are far enough away that you can't touch someone with your fingertips, you are more protected than if you are shoulder to shoulder." The context had nothing to do with an infected person coughing or otherwise expelling droplets, he was talking about just breathing.




obvert -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 1:53:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
...
Combined with sporadic reports domestically about poor social distancing practices and ...



I've read that they are contemplating everyone wearing mask in public. USA.


Yup.


The doctor in NY I posted for the second time in this thread mentioned that face masks are useful, but mostly to prevent the person wearing one not touching their face and not coughing on someone else. The most useful protocol is still being a fanatic about cleaning hands and not touching one's face unless you're in constant contact with someone with the disease. The aerosol transmission route is about as likely as catching this from someone flushing the toilet and walking into the flush plume. (So don't share a cubicle with anyone either).

He's a bit long-winded, but it's somewhere around minute 10-15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxyH1rkuLaw


I would say that you could share the cubicle for doing something as long as you are not going to flush it.

For people with lung issues like asthma, a mask might help since that can keep allergens and other lung irritants out. It should also make breathing easier.

According to the interview I posted yesterday, it is present in aerosol just from breathing. The amount varies by the infected person, and the farther away you are the less chance of catching it.

A quotation from an interview I am listening to right now: "If you are far enough away that you can't touch someone with your fingertips, you are more protected than if you are shoulder to shoulder." The context had nothing to do with an infected person coughing or otherwise expelling droplets, he was talking about just breathing.


I'll watch that, but all of the work I've read so far has been in laboratory settings, and not in an area with moving air or moving people. These tests are being done in a small closed box, essentially.

Inside being near someone breathing has still proven not to be a guarantee you'll catch it. How would any science know yet is beyond me since it's hard enough to tell how long it's viable on a surface.





22sec -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 2:03:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

The FT have updated their US map to show what restrictions are in place state by state in the US. There are still a lot of states without any order to stay home it seems, and yet those all show cases present. Some quite a few, like Florida. Has there been informal suggestion to stay at home and isolate in these areas, or what is the message from local and state governments?



[image]local://upfiles/37283/B27C139803BE43298CF8C08879911452.jpg[/image]


Here in Mississippi the governor has either left it up to local communities, or if the Department of Health advises a shelter in place for a community based on their data. For a state like ours, I believe it’s the better approach. There are plenty of rural counties that such an order doesn’t make sense. Hear in Jackson, the mayor just today has issued a shelter in place order. Even in that order there are numerous provisions for leaving the house.




Cap Mandrake -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 2:05:10 PM)

The transmission risk scenarios are probabilistic not absolute.




witpqs -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 2:05:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
...
Combined with sporadic reports domestically about poor social distancing practices and ...



I've read that they are contemplating everyone wearing mask in public. USA.


Yup.


The doctor in NY I posted for the second time in this thread mentioned that face masks are useful, but mostly to prevent the person wearing one not touching their face and not coughing on someone else. The most useful protocol is still being a fanatic about cleaning hands and not touching one's face unless you're in constant contact with someone with the disease. The aerosol transmission route is about as likely as catching this from someone flushing the toilet and walking into the flush plume. (So don't share a cubicle with anyone either).

He's a bit long-winded, but it's somewhere around minute 10-15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxyH1rkuLaw


I would say that you could share the cubicle for doing something as long as you are not going to flush it.

For people with lung issues like asthma, a mask might help since that can keep allergens and other lung irritants out. It should also make breathing easier.

According to the interview I posted yesterday, it is present in aerosol just from breathing. The amount varies by the infected person, and the farther away you are the less chance of catching it.

A quotation from an interview I am listening to right now: "If you are far enough away that you can't touch someone with your fingertips, you are more protected than if you are shoulder to shoulder." The context had nothing to do with an infected person coughing or otherwise expelling droplets, he was talking about just breathing.


I'll watch that, but all of the work I've read so far has been in laboratory settings, and not in an area with moving air or moving people. These tests are being done in a small closed box, essentially.

Inside being near someone breathing has still proven not to be a guarantee you'll catch it. How would any science know yet is beyond me since it's hard enough to tell how long it's viable on a surface.

Expanding a little bit, the (different) PODcast I finished listening to a few seconds ago was a US Naval Institute PODcast (used to be called Proceedings PODcast) from a few weeks ago and the overall context was protecting the fleet from COVID-19. (So just to be clear I referred both to the PODcast I linked yesterday and quoted from the one I just listened to, two different PODcasts.)

But as far as someone catching it from another person breathing (but not coughing, sneezing, being intubated, or otherwise expelling droplets), putting together a number of articles and interviews: Yes, you can get it from an infected person breathing but that is much less likely. The amount of virus particles an infected person puts out varies greatly from person to person and time to time.

Distance from an infected person is definitely your friend, and closer proximity in the same cubicle, especially for a longer period could expose you to more virus particles (if the person is putting out many/any at that time). The point being don't take a situation where infection is much less likely and do things which make infection more likely. No paranoia or worry, just do things which keep the odds low.




obvert -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 2:12:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


Guess those of us with the nervous habit of biting nails and knawing on knuckles are just SOL.


For me this has been the best indicator of my progress toward staying healthy. I bite my nails during tense film/tv and while reading, and it's been a while since I last tried to kick the habit. I did it for about a year after travelling to India in 1996.

Here is my evidence it's working now. [:)]

(although gardening doesn't help them look much better, they're certainly longer now).

[image]local://upfiles/37283/21DD840B6F57468292D3E76225A6061C.jpg[/image]




RFalvo69 -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 2:12:47 PM)

Over here there is a feeling of stillness, with some good news, a lot of bad ones and even more darkening clouds on the horizon.

Milan completed its "Chinese-level" effort, and opened a brand new hospital with 250 specialised beds - created in ten days. While the spaces were already available (the ex-Milan's Fair buildings), the effort was nothing short of amazing. It also underlined again the differences between North and South. My hope is that, should we able to flatten the curve, these structures will be able in the immediate future to absorb the now increasing number of cases in the South.

Southern Italy is deteriorating, and I fear that the "social revolt day" is getting nearer. Now we are seeing people "robbing" supermarkets (they fill up a supermarket trolley and the they just run away without paying). Not to mention the many thefts that are taking place in some cities, as the shops are closed, without any surveillance. The Police is deployed to protect this places, but they are stretched very thin. Some small towns are reporting up to three robberies every night.

The "Money for Food Decree" plus the 600 Euros already promised by the government to all freelances, starting from April, 1st, should have bought some money in the pockets of the Italians. You had to register (if not already registered) to the "INPS" site - the National Institution for Social Safety - and from there get your money. On every conceivable media the Government assured that there was not a "click day" and that the money was always available until the emergency ended.

Of course, the very moment March 31st turned to April 1st the INPS site was utterly destroyed by the number of contacts (the peak was 300,000 at the same time). There even was a moment when you entered your credentials only to get another random person's web page. Now everything is truly down.

While a lot of people are screaming against the unpreparedness of the government, I disagree with them. This was an opportunity to show social consciousness. Instead it turned into the usual "the Italians must show social consciousness! - except me." This situation is evolving.

Heartwarming news from Naples. People prepare both warm and cold food, put it into a basket, and lower it from their windows for the homeless and those who cannot buy food. The basket stays down and more fortunate people can add food to it. The motto is: "If you have, give. If you don't have, take." This initiative is growing, but still limited to Naples and surroundings.

And now for the darkening clouds. Harvest season is near. We are talking about harvesting vegetables, grain, fruits... the most basic foods. About 200,000 people are needed for it, this year (you will see why). In "normal" times this would be the kind of job for immigrants and seasonal workers coming from outside the country.

Let's consider immigrants first. In the farming sector hiring an Italian would costs four more times than hiring an immigrant. The latter gets 4-500 Euro/month, with no expenses for social security, total flexibility and immediate firing should him "not behave". Be assured that you will find a replacement up stat.

Even worse, many immigrants are actually "managed" by criminal organisations that "look for jobs" for them and then take a cut of their salary. Or they can just work illegally.

This, however, covers only a percentage of the workers needed during the harvest period (the actual number of immigrants being usually inflated for political reasons). The rest is usually covered by thousands "seasonal workers" who arrive in Europe (exp. Italy, France, Germany and Spain) from Eastern Europe, Morocco and other African and Asian countries. The overall number for Italy is about 370,000/year. But, alas, this year we have the lockdown. Some were already here for the early harvests. About half of them fled before being quarantined. Those who remained had their visa already been prolonged. The rest just won't come, creating the "need for 200,000 workers" void I mentioned earlier.

Hooray! Jobs for the currently idle Italians, then? Well... it is more complex than that.

First, you have to find your workers in a country under internal lockdown too. Unless the government issues a specific decree, I cannot hire someone in Lombardy to come in Sicily and harvest my oranges. And should this happen without rigorous testing measures (an impossible task), the sheer number of people moving to the harvest areas will, "de facto" break the quarantine and cause a disaster. Second (and this is true for any kind of worker), during this viral emergency the employers must observe the rules of social distancing, hygiene and security for the workers (with most of the Italians they got being totally untrained in this kind of job in the first place). No more "Everyone! Climb in the truck! Let's go!" Well, you can do that - and find down the road that your workforce is reduced to zero due to the virus.

[France, I read, does seem to disregard the internal quarantine, and is calling "all the idle people" (owners of restaurants, hotels, non-essential services... even students) to fill the void "so that all of us can eat." They, too, need 200,000 more workers.]

The net result, no matter what, will be a marked slowdown of harvests everywhere, with a percentage of products unavoidably left rotting.

And then the ironic part: due to an unusually warm winter, many "products of the land" are ripening faster. Strawberries and asparagus are already rotting in the void. The rest of the harvest season is almost upon us.

I almost forgot! Imports/Exports! No. Forget about them. Well, some countries, like Kenya, are still exporting - at 300% the usual price. The EU is trying to create a new set of rules to facilitate the internal circulation of fresh products - but you must have a surplus of fresh products to circulate them.

Now, believe it or not, all of the above is only the "rock". Explaining the "hard place" is much simpler: since a couple of months many workers choose to not work at all for fear of the virus, and it was so sudden that it was impossible to replace them in time. The fields and orchards assigned to them are barren.

There is no way around it. We will have shortages in the markets and most of the "basic food" prices will go up. This will affect everyone, even the rich, because you cannot buy something that it is not there. But the impact on the poors will be devastating - in a situation where Italy is already a ticking bomb.








Cap Mandrake -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 2:13:59 PM)

Volume of air surrounding a person in an open space increases roughly with the cube of distance...so if you are twice as far away the volume of air in which the particle might be distributed is 8x as large. 3x as far away..27x the volume.

Of course, it's not that simple..the particles are not usually a true aerosol...most of us are not suspended in mid air..after a time airborne droplets descend onto nearby surfaces...etc. etc.




witpqs -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 2:14:32 PM)

In that Michael Osterholm interview posted yesterday, he made a comment about how much virus is present in samples from patients' throats (throat cultures taken). On day sick, patients have 1,000 times as many virus particles there as did patients with SARS when the SARS patients were at their most contagious. The amount decreased day by day after; samples were not available from the study group on days -1 or -2 but it's presumed the amount of virus particles was even greater. This might be part of why it's so contagious as virus gets out there from patients just talking.

Note: I corrected this post after finding the section in the audio (a little after 1 hour 3 minutes).




JohnDillworth -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 2:23:11 PM)

Thanks for the education Obvert. Pretty part of the world you live in. Only got to visit a couple of times. Was coming back late summer. Not so sure now




Cap Mandrake -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 2:23:25 PM)

quote:

I almost forgot! Imports/Exports! No. Forget about them. Well, some countries, like Kenya, are still exporting - at 300% the usual price. The EU is trying to create a new set of rules to facilitate the internal circulation of fresh products - but you must have a surplus of fresh products to circulate them.

Now, believe it or not, all of the above is only the "rock". Explaining the "hard place" is much simpler: since a couple of months many workers choose to not work at all for fear of the virus, and it was so sudden that it was impossible to replace them in time. The fields and orchards assigned to them are barren.

There is no way around it. We will have shortages in the markets and most of the "basic food" prices will go up. This will affect everyone, even the rich, because you cannot buy something that it is not there. But the impact on the poors will be devastating - in a situation where Italy is already a ticking bomb.


Hard to argue with that. Labor intensive harvesting is going to suffer. Fruits and fresh vegetables. I am still seeing harvesting of stawberries and high value crops going on in SoCal but huge numbers of laborers are needed for lettuce and peppers and avocados and the like. Grains are mostly harvested by machine in the US.




JohnDillworth -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 2:30:12 PM)

quote:

I fear that the "social revolt day" is getting nearer.


RFalvo69.....Yes, underneath it all there is always the question about "social unrest". I'm from NYC and I've seen it, but not for a long time. Times have been pretty good lately and we have only had problems when the economy has been poor, race relations bad and something sets it off. So far things seem good. One thing I have seen a couple of instances of, just a couple. Closed business mysteriously catching fire. Perhaps it is easier to be done with the business, collect the insurance and move along. Right now that makes some financial sense. hope it doesn't catch on. Structural fires are not common anymore so any slight uptick would be noticed




Cap Mandrake -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 2:34:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

As us civil servants like to say......close enough for Government work:


Not really. It's in a completely different Geological area. The one small dot is located right in Yellowstone, but small quakes happen there all of the time, so that wouldn't be so surprising.

I am from these parts, and this is the path the Yellowstone hotspot took (or the continent took over it rather) to create the Craters of the Moon and other features in Idaho. Very far from the current position though.

The map you shared shows the Far Eastern edge of Idaho. Not where those dots are located. If anything, over time the activity should continue to move farther east as the continent moves over the hotspot.

Here is the path of it across Idaho into present position.


[image]local://upfiles/37283/377B8CE306AC4ED698B26BABCF9DCE36.jpg[/image]


Very interesting illustration. I imagine Craters of the Moon is along there somewhere.

You can see the same "hot-spot" drift as you drive North along 395 in the Eastern Sierra. The volcano cones get newer as you approach the Long Valley Caldera near Mammoth




Chickenboy -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 2:42:15 PM)

Everybody must do their part

[image]local://upfiles/6968/7648E6F139C442FC9F17A31DBFE5CE38.jpg[/image]




witpqs -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 2:45:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

In that Michael Osterholm interview posted yesterday, he made a comment about how much virus is present in samples from patients' throats (throat cultures taken). On day sick, patients have 1,000 times as many virus particles there as did patients with SARS when the SARS patients were at their most contagious. The amount decreased day by day after; samples were not available from the study group on days -1 or -2 but it's presumed the amount of virus particles was even greater. This might be part of why it's so contagious as virus gets out there from patients just talking.

Note: I corrected this post after finding the section in the audio (a little after 1 hour 3 minutes).

Corrected post.




Cap Mandrake -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 2:47:40 PM)

Larry David does a funny public service thingy telling people to stay home

https://twitter.com/CAgovernor/status/1245110728199045120




MakeeLearn -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 2:48:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Very interesting illustration.



That illustration seems to repeat in nature.



[image]local://upfiles/55056/43F982C2FDEE4653A1684FB854087E24.jpg[/image]




Chickenboy -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 3:15:49 PM)

@obvert: A request. Can you find an updated map showing the case doubling rate map that you showed a few days ago? It was the one that compared different countries' 'trajectory' re: when cases doubled (every two days/every three days/ whatnot). If you can identify a recent one that shows regional distributions (e.g., northern Italy and certain US states), that would be welcome too. Thanks.




witpqs -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 3:30:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Very interesting illustration.



That illustration seems to repeat in nature.



[image]local://upfiles/55056/43F982C2FDEE4653A1684FB854087E24.jpg[/image]

At least things are looking up.




RangerJoe -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 3:41:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

Over here there is a feeling of stillness, with some good news, a lot of bad ones and even more darkening clouds on the horizon.

Milan completed its "Chinese-level" effort, and opened a brand new hospital with 250 specialised beds - created in ten days. While the spaces were already available (the ex-Milan's Fair buildings), the effort was nothing short of amazing. It also underlined again the differences between North and South. My hope is that, should we able to flatten the curve, these structures will be able in the immediate future to absorb the now increasing number of cases in the South.

Southern Italy is deteriorating, and I fear that the "social revolt day" is getting nearer. Now we are seeing people "robbing" supermarkets (they fill up a supermarket trolley and the they just run away without paying). Not to mention the many thefts that are taking place in some cities, as the shops are closed, without any surveillance. The Police is deployed to protect this places, but they are stretched very thin. Some small towns are reporting up to three robberies every night.

The "Money for Food Decree" plus the 600 Euros already promised by the government to all freelances, starting from April, 1st, should have bought some money in the pockets of the Italians. You had to register (if not already registered) to the "INPS" site - the National Institution for Social Safety - and from there get your money. On every conceivable media the Government assured that there was not a "click day" and that the money was always available until the emergency ended.

Of course, the very moment March 31st turned to April 1st the INPS site was utterly destroyed by the number of contacts (the peak was 300,000 at the same time). There even was a moment when you entered your credentials only to get another random person's web page. Now everything is truly down.

While a lot of people are screaming against the unpreparedness of the government, I disagree with them. This was an opportunity to show social consciousness. Instead it turned into the usual "the Italians must show social consciousness! - except me." This situation is evolving.

Heartwarming news from Naples. People prepare both warm and cold food, put it into a basket, and lower it from their windows for the homeless and those who cannot buy food. The basket stays down and more fortunate people can add food to it. The motto is: "If you have, give. If you don't have, take." This initiative is growing, but still limited to Naples and surroundings.

And now for the darkening clouds. Harvest season is near. We are talking about harvesting vegetables, grain, fruits... the most basic foods. About 200,000 people are needed for it, this year (you will see why). In "normal" times this would be the kind of job for immigrants and seasonal workers coming from outside the country.

Let's consider immigrants first. In the farming sector hiring an Italian would costs four more times than hiring an immigrant. The latter gets 4-500 Euro/month, with no expenses for social security, total flexibility and immediate firing should him "not behave". Be assured that you will find a replacement up stat.

Even worse, many immigrants are actually "managed" by criminal organisations that "look for jobs" for them and then take a cut of their salary. Or they can just work illegally.

This, however, covers only a percentage of the workers needed during the harvest period (the actual number of immigrants being usually inflated for political reasons). The rest is usually covered by thousands "seasonal workers" who arrive in Europe (exp. Italy, France, Germany and Spain) from Eastern Europe, Morocco and other African and Asian countries. The overall number for Italy is about 370,000/year. But, alas, this year we have the lockdown. Some were already here for the early harvests. About half of them fled before being quarantined. Those who remained had their visa already been prolonged. The rest just won't come, creating the "need for 200,000 workers" void I mentioned earlier.

Hooray! Jobs for the currently idle Italians, then? Well... it is more complex than that.

First, you have to find your workers in a country under internal lockdown too. Unless the government issues a specific decree, I cannot hire someone in Lombardy to come in Sicily and harvest my oranges. And should this happen without rigorous testing measures (an impossible task), the sheer number of people moving to the harvest areas will, "de facto" break the quarantine and cause a disaster. Second (and this is true for any kind of worker), during this viral emergency the employers must observe the rules of social distancing, hygiene and security for the workers (with most of the Italians they got being totally untrained in this kind of job in the first place). No more "Everyone! Climb in the truck! Let's go!" Well, you can do that - and find down the road that your workforce is reduced to zero due to the virus.

[France, I read, does seem to disregard the internal quarantine, and is calling "all the idle people" (owners of restaurants, hotels, non-essential services... even students) to fill the void "so that all of us can eat." They, too, need 200,000 more workers.]

The net result, no matter what, will be a marked slowdown of harvests everywhere, with a percentage of products unavoidably left rotting.

And then the ironic part: due to an unusually warm winter, many "products of the land" are ripening faster. Strawberries and asparagus are already rotting in the void. The rest of the harvest season is almost upon us.

I almost forgot! Imports/Exports! No. Forget about them. Well, some countries, like Kenya, are still exporting - at 300% the usual price. The EU is trying to create a new set of rules to facilitate the internal circulation of fresh products - but you must have a surplus of fresh products to circulate them.

Now, believe it or not, all of the above is only the "rock". Explaining the "hard place" is much simpler: since a couple of months many workers choose to not work at all for fear of the virus, and it was so sudden that it was impossible to replace them in time. The fields and orchards assigned to them are barren.

There is no way around it. We will have shortages in the markets and most of the "basic food" prices will go up. This will affect everyone, even the rich, because you cannot buy something that it is not there. But the impact on the poors will be devastating - in a situation where Italy is already a ticking bomb.


I don't know if you can have any input into addressing this worker shortage but could you suggest testing people to see if they have had this CoVid-19 virus? That way if they test positive, they could then be cleared to work and not have the risk of catching the disease nor spreading it.




RangerJoe -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 3:46:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

In that Michael Osterholm interview posted yesterday, he made a comment about how much virus is present in samples from patients' throats (throat cultures taken). On day sick, patients have 1,000 times as many virus particles there as did patients with SARS when the SARS patients were at their most contagious. The amount decreased day by day after; samples were not available from the study group on days -1 or -2 but it's presumed the amount of virus particles was even greater. This might be part of why it's so contagious as virus gets out there from patients just talking.

Note: I corrected this post after finding the section in the audio (a little after 1 hour 3 minutes)


I have a questions for the experts here. Since the virus seems to multiply fast before symptoms appear, would good oral hygiene either help keep one for getting sick by reducing the viral load and/or not get as sick since there would be fewer viruses? I mean not just brushing ones teeth, but using a mouthwash and gargle with it as well. That should help reduce the numbers of the viruses available to spread to other people or infect more cells in that person.




Cap Mandrake -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 3:47:00 PM)

quote:

I almost forgot! Imports/Exports! No. Forget about them. Well, some countries, like Kenya, are still exporting - at 300% the usual price.


I guess we don't need any more NGO's advocating for "fair market" prices, eh?

Stawberries are one thing. Wait till the coffee runs out.




MakeeLearn -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 3:47:01 PM)

Death rate from no food: 100%

Death rate from Coronavirus: ???%




MakeeLearn -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 3:48:53 PM)

I'am growing some nice Italian Basil. Among many other things.


Plus there are Stinging Nettle, Plantain, etc.




Cap Mandrake -> RE: OT: Corona virus (4/1/2020 3:49:36 PM)

I am going to Smart and Final after work and buying about 5 restaurant size bags of Starbucks french roast. I'll throw out the frozen chicken in the fridge.




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