USA ASW (Full Version)

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mogami -> USA ASW (7/25/2003 11:55:29 PM)

Hi, I've not researched this so I'm likely as not to make a few errors in my understanding of what impacts 300 U-boats would have on the course or outcome of the war.

One reason for the U-boat success off the US east coast was US ASW assets were employed at the time in covering the gap between US waters and Britian. (There was no need to employ US ASW assets in US waters as the US was "neutral"

However in the actual event the US and Germany were already in a shooting war by Dec 7 1941. USN DD had attacked (and been sunk by) U-boats. The most dangerous area before Dec 7th 1941 was that area in Mid Atlantic beyond British airpatrol.
Part of lend lease was the US taking over Iceland and setting up long range air patrol to cover this gap.

Had Germany possessed U-boats in greater number they would have inflicted more damage. The USN gave 50 old 4 stack DD to Britian in Lendlease. There were more available.

It is possible that the greater number of U-boats would have caused an earlier incidence of conflict between Germany and the USA. (resulting in the USA entering the war prior to Dec 7 1941)

By 1943 no number of U-boats would have been enough (as was the case in the war) So Germany would have two points to achive.
First they would have to keep the USA out of the war.
Second they would have to defeat Britian prior to 1943.

The higher number of U-boats would have forced the British into using longer more secure routes to maintain the empire.

Material going to Britian it's self would be the exposed convoy.

The Germans would need to prevent the neutral merchant navies from going allied. (Since these always more then made up for ships lost to U-boats)

(I don't think they could prevent this)

The USA would have to find or build more ASW (which would begin the day after the first U-boat/USN incident)

Earlier entry of the USA would move up the date that ended U-boat effectivness. (It happened in 43. If the US came in 6 months earlier move up the decline of U-boat success by 6 months)

So inessense the Germans have to defeat Britian prior to USA entry.

How many ships would the Germans need to sink to defeat Britian?

The answer to this question requires more study. It would not be a matter of just ship numbers. The Germans would need to sink certain convoys and prevent any other convoy from arriving for a period long enough for the shortage to cripple Britian. Certain material in limited amount could always be delivered via air transport. (If needed the air transport could/would be increased but bulk material could likely not be delivered to sustain Britian for long periods. )

The Royal Navy would likely try to bring in convoys with heavy escort. (The unescorted/ lone merchant ship would vanish from the Atlantic to be replaced by herds of merchants moving together with CV escort and every ASW ship available)

This would produce a running battle from the edge of landbased patrol to Britain.
The question then is could the Germans maintain the 100 U-boats at sea. And could they always find, close with and destroy the convoys.
What if the USN CV were all employed in the Atlantic? Would the CVE be invented sooner? What actually brought about the decline of the U-boat? And would more U-boats force the Allies into discovering more effective ASW sooner?

For every action there is an opposing action. What would bring about the surrender of the British Empire?




Nikademus -> Re: Re: Re: Re: 300 U boats (7/25/2003 11:56:23 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Von Rom
[B]Germany had planned for a secret U-boat fleet well before 1935. It takes years of planning, prototypes, training, testing, etc to build any large military equipment.

In contravention of the Versailles Treaty, Germany had sub prototypes built, and conducted training, in several foreign countries. I mentioned many (not all) of these initial U-boats were built in secret. While Germany was building U-boats that met the limits of the Anglo-German Naval Treaty, it was also building additional U-boats in other countries as well as its own.

The success of these few U-boats in the first years of WWII speaks for itself. That more U-boats could have been built (but for Hitler's lack of vision), also points to the fact that even greater losses (and disaster) would have been incurred.

Even with these few U-boats, and the fact that Germany was NOT running its economy at full war production, it is clear that the initial first few years of WWII was still a very close call. . .

On the one hand you say that the Allies could counter or prepare for any U-boat increase or threat, and yet, America's appalling lack of defense against the U-boat (even after witnessing more than two years of war), speaks volumes aqainst your own argument.

Even for Britain in the first few years, it was a close run thing.

Again, all of this with so few U-boats.

Now, if Doenitz had had his way. . . [/B][/QUOTE]

Clay Blair disagrees with that oft held assertion, that had Doenitz had his way....more u-boats etc etc that they could have won the Battle of the Atlantic. His mind numbingly detailed and extensive two books on the U-boat war make a hard case that at no time did Germany seriously threaten either Britian's lifeline nor choke off the communicaitons/supply line between the US and that country. IIRC by his estimate, Uboats sank l about 1% of all laden cargo ships to their destinations. He also aserts via tablulated economic info that Britian was never at any time "at the brink" courtasy of U-boats. It was nothing like WWI where the fledgling ASW dept has few tools other than guns and ramming in which to combat the undersea boat

major reasons for this, besides lack of numbers of Uboats was the ever increasing tech gap, the rise of airpower, the basic convoy system, Ultra, weaknesses/issues with the "Wolfpack" theory and the inherent unsuitability/weaknesses of the Type IX and VII Uboats for the war in which they were asked to fight.

The "300 Uboats for 2 battleships" argument is a rather slippery one IMO....but what must be really considered when that is put forward is, if they "did" try to build 300 subs, one has to factor in the Allied/Neutral reaction to it. 300 additional subs might have spurned a change in counter-build programs which coupled with the above mentioned factors might have led even greater U boat losses.

To be sure they would probably have sunk more cargo ships, but would it have "won the war?" I think given these other handicaps and the actual estimated success rate of the historical run that there is much room for doubt




Nikademus -> Re: USA ASW (7/26/2003 12:08:56 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Hi, I've not researched this so I'm likely as not to make a few errors in my understanding of what impacts 300 U-boats would have on the course or outcome of the war.

One reason for the U-boat success off the US east coast was US ASW assets were employed at the time in covering the gap between US waters and Britian. (There was no need to employ US ASW assets in US waters as the US was "neutral"

[/B][/QUOTE]

Actually the major reason was that due to the lack of numbers, and the general unprepared state of the USN to fight this type of war, Admiral King chose to give top priority to protecting the initial troop convoys to the UK over merchant shipping to which some felt that it could protect itself more or less by fast steaming and hugging the coast line (a little foggy here but something of that order....been a while since i read Blair....my brain still hurts from it) Another factor was that while ASW assets were "on the program", they were lower down on the priority scale vs the major assets currently being built for the two ocean navy. Even the US couldn't do everything at once and the tooling up period would take time.

Needless to say the Drumbeat losses were a major embarrasement and the full details were initially suppressed by the navy and kept from the general public. In the big picture of course it was a drop in the bucket but tell that to the merchantmen and their families.




mogami -> U-Boats lost off US coast (7/26/2003 1:38:51 AM)

Hi, Even during the "easy" period the Germans lost U-boats. I'm going to try to compile a list of U-boats sank off US coast before 1943.

Number 1
U-85 was a Type VIIB U-boat commissioned June 7, 1941, by the German Navy for action in the Atlantic. During its 10-month lifetime, it only participated in four patrols. Nevertheless, it covered more than 30,000 miles before it became the first U–boat sank off the U.S. East Coast April 10, 1942.

The 216 foot-long U–boat had unsuccessfully attacked the Norwegian freighter Christine Knudsen, when the destroyer USS Jesse Roper (DD 147) intercepted it.

Cruising on the surface, U-85 was spotted by Roper searchlights and then hit by a shell from one of the destroyer’s four-inch guns. The sub went down fast, and Roper dropped several depth charges for good measure.

None of the crew of 46 survived.




Nikademus -> (7/26/2003 1:48:01 AM)

LOL. Dont you have enough projects to do Mog-man? ;)




mogami -> Anti Shipping (7/26/2003 1:51:21 AM)

Hi, It just occured to me. Rather then try to build,man, and train 300 U-boats. What if the Germans build more long range aircraft.
They could use these to search for convoys for the U-boats but also attack the convoys themselves. (Many ships were sank by the few long range aircraft the Germans did have. )




HMSWarspite -> (7/26/2003 1:57:36 AM)

I can't find my copy of a more detailed analysis of the u boat war, (must tidy the books one day :) ), so I am using the Times Atlas of the Second world war.
German assessment of sinking target: 22 million tons of Commonwealth shipping in 1939, over half on Oceanic trade. Need to sink 750000 tons a month for 12 months to force a surrender. (=9 million tonnes in 1 year) (UK had c60m tons per year of imports)

Germany started the war with 57 subs in commission, vs 350 estimated to be necessary (BTW look at http://uboat.net/ for the best info on U Boats)

Quarterly sinking tonnages by U Boat (and Total)/ I have also added operational Uboats, and (losses)

Q4 1939 421156 (755392) 49 (9) =18%
q1 1940 343610 (548435) 32 (8) =25%
q2 1940 372160 (1032175) 46 (6) =13%
q3 1940 758778 (1232763) 28 (5) =18%
q4 1940 711610 (1178268) 27 (3) =11%
q1 1941 566585 (1253339) 22 (5) =23%
q2 1941 885010 (1630968) 30 (10) (haven't got accurate sub numbers here on, reading off a chart)
q3 1941 377341 (537616) 70 (10)
q4 1941 342820 (906635) 80 (20)
q1 1942 1341788 (1933703) 90 (10)
q2 1942 1739146 (2213703) 120 (10)
q3 1942 1505880 (1846573) 140 (30)
q4 1942 1679393 (1794489) 200 (35)
q1 1943 1189833 (1357810) 210 (40)
q2 1943 688548 (767933) 240 (75)
q3 1943 457565 (641618) 200 (60)
q4 1943 250959 (452776) 175 (50)
q1 1944 328145 (405450) 170 (60)

after this, quarterly sinkings never get above 250000 (total) for the rest of the war, u boat numbers hover between 160 and 200, and sinkings run at 40 to 80 per quarter.

Now, what does this give us.
1. With the subs (and other forces) Ge never sank more than 50% of the target in any 12 month (q3 1940 to q3 1941), prior to the US entry (once US is in, all bets are off, unless UK would starve before US could help, say 6 months window). However, this 40% target was achieved with about 30 opeational boats. So undoubtably, Germany could have achieved the aim, with more boats (say 100-120 operational boats, which would need 300-350 total...there's a surprise!).

2. Now look at what happened before the fall of France gave them Atlantic ports: about 700000 tons A QUARTER, or 30% of target. In exchange for 23 boats lost. So, 9m tons needs 120 boats operational, and gets you close to 70 lost (or the entire operational fleet they actually had).

3. Looking at the Uboat.net, Germany actually built the following subs per year
1935 14
1936 21
1937 1
1938 9
1939 18 (=63 - not all in commission at war start)
Now, what if they built at the max rate for all those years (21/year from the data), this gives 105 subs (i.e. less than twice what they had anyway). What about some expansion..say 10%/year from 1936, giving 14+21+23+25+28=111 subs. See my point? The Germans would have had to go on to full war production to get close to the 300-350 needed. Not to mention crew training.
In reality it is worse than this, because of the 63 UBoats built 1935-1939, 2 were type 1 (useless), 31 were type 2 (almost useless except in coastal waters), 21 type 7 (OK for N Atlantic), and 9 type 9 (your Eastern seaboard US job). So in order to get 100 operational Atlantic boats, the Germans actually have to increase production by a factor of 10 on the sea going boats. And Crews, etc

Out of interest, onward years production was 50 (1940), 199 (1941), 237 (1942), 284 (1943), 229 (1944), 91 (1945).

BTW, what is this idea that some U Boats were built abroad? No operational U Boats were. IIRC a prototype or two might have been developed, but no significant numbers.

I produce all these stats, to restate my point, which is:

The Germans could win the tonnage war, with enough U Boats. However there was no way they would have had them at the start of the war. They could also have won the battle with about 10 Nuclear Hunter Killers. The chance of them having either is about equal. It would be an interesting thing to see what the Admiralty and Government would have done about Germany building and commissioning c 50-60 subs a year from 1935 on, but given their approach to the entire U Boat war, I suspect it would be rational and logical...the very things that the German running of the U Boat war was not.

The 350 U Boat option is well up there with the IJN build 10 fleet carriers a year 1942-1945 option of WitP as far as I am concerned. The 'realistic' alternative history is the Germans realise Enigma is broken, catch on to 3cm radar, use the schnorkel earlier (1939-40 even?), and increase sub production maybe 10% (would make quite a difference cumulatively)




Nikademus -> Re: Anti Shipping (7/26/2003 2:05:55 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Hi, It just occured to me. Rather then try to build,man, and train 300 U-boats. What if the Germans build more long range aircraft.
They could use these to search for convoys for the U-boats but also attack the convoys themselves. (Many ships were sank by the few long range aircraft the Germans did have. ) [/B][/QUOTE]

Blair stated in his books that the FW2000 "Condor" operations were abysmal failures for the most part, largely due to training issues (specifically, proper location reporting at sea) and command and control issues between U-boat command and the Luftwaffe (the whole Nazi private empires deal)

So as with building more Uboats themselves, building better and more longer ranged aircraft alone would not solve all of Germany's problems in their commerce war

edit: add to that....the growing allied air superiority at sea would also create additional problems. Once enough CVL/CVE's are out there fighters would make life hell for these hunters of the air




Nikademus -> Re: Re: submarines (7/26/2003 2:16:20 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Von Rom
[B]You're close on the mark, Mogami. Don't know about the torpedoes, though.

Doenitz wanted 300 U-boats before Germany went to war. One can only shudder at the thought of what might have happened in the Atlantic had that happened. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, Germany suffered a similar quality control problem with their torps as did the US though with them it was more technical issues and miscommunicaitons vs the denial-head in the sand problem that plauged the US situation.

They also had issues with their magnetic torpedoes which did not preform to specs




Mr.Frag -> (7/26/2003 2:56:06 AM)

The lack of long range aircraft was the other failing of Germany and it showed dramatically during the BoB big time. Aircraft that performed great during the early war efforts were suddenly completely useless and required such a level of escort to be completely unpractical. Even with this historical mistake of epic proportion, the BoB was a pretty close call.

If you factor the UK as no longer having safe ports due to Germany's proper airforce design requirements into the mix with the proper design requirements for the U-Boats, you see that from a prewar plan standpoint (forget what actually happened due to stupidity), they really did have a very good chance of coming out on top.

Japan on the other hand, you really have to wonder about the thought process ... it is completely obvious that they stood zero chance at all no matter how they enacted the plans.




Apollo11 -> (7/26/2003 3:29:34 AM)

Hi all,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr.Frag [B]



The lack of long range aircraft was the other failing of Germany and it showed dramatically during the BoB big time. Aircraft that performed great during the early war efforts were suddenly completely useless and required such a level of escort to be completely unpractical. Even with this historical mistake of epic proportion, the BoB was a pretty close call.

If you factor the UK as no longer having safe ports due to Germany's proper airforce design requirements into the mix with the proper design requirements for the U-Boats, you see that from a prewar plan standpoint (forget what actually happened due to stupidity), they really did have a very good chance of coming out on top.


[/B][/QUOTE]

The Gernas did have the range to cover the BoB theater with their
bombers and they did have the means to do it even at night.

What they failed utterly is that they never had _ANY_ air plan.


Leo "Apollo11"




Von Rom -> (7/26/2003 4:54:16 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by HMSWarspite
[B]
BTW, what is this idea that some U Boats were built abroad? No operational U Boats were. IIRC a prototype or two might have been developed, but no significant numbers.

I produce all these stats, to restate my point, which is:

The Germans could win the tonnage war, with enough U Boats. However there was no way they would have had them at the start of the war. They could also have won the battle with about 10 Nuclear Hunter Killers. The chance of them having either is about equal. It would be an interesting thing to see what the Admiralty and Government would have done about Germany building and commissioning c 50-60 subs a year from 1935 on, but given their approach to the entire U Boat war, I suspect it would be rational and logical...the very things that the German running of the U Boat war was not.

The 350 U Boat option is well up there with the IJN build 10 fleet carriers a year 1942-1945 option of WitP as far as I am concerned. The 'realistic' alternative history is the Germans realise Enigma is broken, catch on to 3cm radar, use the schnorkel earlier (1939-40 even?), and increase sub production maybe 10% (would make quite a difference cumulatively) [/B][/QUOTE]

Before 1935, at least 14 U-boats were built abroad in Spain, Holland, Turkey, Finland etc as well as 6 being built secretly in German shipyards. This does not include the training schools, torpedoes, parts, infrastructure, etc, etc that were being developed and tested abroad, which had essentially placed Germany years ahead in U-boat construction.

So much research and testing had been done prior to 1935, that within one year of renouncing the Versailles treaty, Germany was able to launch 36 U-boats in 1935-36. If Hitler had placed priority on U-boat construction, then, building 30 U-boats per year, gives us a total of: 36 (1936) + 30 (1937) + 30 (1938) + 30 (1939) = 126 U-boats in 1939 (or double what it initially started with).

I think it ultimately came down to priorities: Hitler squandered so many resources and time on outlandish projects such as battleships, etc; rather than focus attention on the U-boat fleet. By the time this was being done, it was already too late.




Von Rom -> (7/26/2003 5:01:06 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr.Frag
[B]The lack of long range aircraft was the other failing of Germany and it showed dramatically during the BoB big time. Aircraft that performed great during the early war efforts were suddenly completely useless and required such a level of escort to be completely unpractical. Even with this historical mistake of epic proportion, the BoB was a pretty close call.

If you factor the UK as no longer having safe ports due to Germany's proper airforce design requirements into the mix with the proper design requirements for the U-Boats, you see that from a prewar plan standpoint (forget what actually happened due to stupidity), they really did have a very good chance of coming out on top.

Japan on the other hand, you really have to wonder about the thought process ... it is completely obvious that they stood zero chance at all no matter how they enacted the plans. [/B][/QUOTE]

Germany was developing long-range aircraft and had successfully tested such a plane:

The four-engine Me 264, initially designed in 1937 and 1938, and referred to inside the German government as the "Amerika-Bomber" or the "New York Bomber", had a range of nine thousand miles and was capable of carrying "a five-ton load of bombs to New York, a small load to the middle West, or reconnaissance missions over the West Coast and then returning to Germany without intermediate bases" (Weinberg, Germany, p.197).

The Me 264 actually made its first flight in December 1942, when it flew 30 hours non-stop to New York and returned safely to Europe (Ford, Germany's Secret Weapons, p.30).

These long-range bombers were designed to bring Germany's new air force directly into the skies over America. The war, however, ended before any of these planes could be used to actually bomb American cities.

Like so much throughout the war, Germany's efforts were scattered and mis-directed. . .




Von Rom -> Re: U-Boats lost off US coast (7/26/2003 5:08:53 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Hi, Even during the "easy" period the Germans lost U-boats. I'm going to try to compile a list of U-boats sank off US coast before 1943.

Number 1
U-85 was a Type VIIB U-boat commissioned June 7, 1941, by the German Navy for action in the Atlantic. During its 10-month lifetime, it only participated in four patrols. Nevertheless, it covered more than 30,000 miles before it became the first U–boat sank off the U.S. East Coast April 10, 1942.

The 216 foot-long U–boat had unsuccessfully attacked the Norwegian freighter Christine Knudsen, when the destroyer USS Jesse Roper (DD 147) intercepted it.

Cruising on the surface, U-85 was spotted by Roper searchlights and then hit by a shell from one of the destroyer’s four-inch guns. The sub went down fast, and Roper dropped several depth charges for good measure.

None of the crew of 46 survived. [/B][/QUOTE]

Mogami:

I think Germany lost 7 U-boats, while sinking 585 ships, along America's east coast in 1942. Not a bad return on investment.

The most that Germany could send at any one time was 12 U-boats; Doenitz wanted to send 100 U-boats.




Nikademus -> (7/26/2003 6:41:31 AM)

Blair puts it at 609 merchants for 3.1 Million tons of shipping between 12/41 and 12/42

Agreed....not a bad return. In fact this represented the most successful campaign for the Uboats of the entire war. The losses amount to 1/4 of all merchants lost in the war to u-boats. Total German losses amounted to 22 Uboats (10 IV's, 12 VII's)

Some relevent facts and factoids

Total patrols mounted = 184 (80 Type IX ; 104 Type VII)

The campaign was noted for it's high # of tankers bagged : 143 (92 new tankers were produced during this same period)

The campaign was an indisputable "blow" to the Allied effort and was the cause of much friction between the US and Britian but was hardly a "crippling blow" due to the total size of the Allied shipping pool which constituted over 30 million gross tons + new construction (for example, 925,000 new tons in tanker tonnage for 1942)

The US compensated for the loss of oil flow by utilizing alternate oil delivery methods and gas rationing

Ironically, had Donietz, "had his way" the campaign might have been less sucessful as he favored sending more Type VII's vs the Type IX's which in this one case, were more productive.

It had a reletively small effect on the vital lifeline transporting cargo from America to the British Isles

Blair balances some of the above by stating emphatically that it should not be concluded that the American Uboat campaign was of no small consequence but points out as per the gist of his work that Doneitz never achieved the decisive strategic goals sought.

The ultimate achievement thus made by the Uboats of Drumbeat was that it forced the Allies to commit vast resources to extending the convoy network to the Eastern Seaboard, the Gulf of Mexico, the Carrabean and Latin America

The result of which was quickly diminishing returns for the boats as ASW improved and expanded




Von Rom -> (7/26/2003 8:00:08 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nikademus
[B]Blair puts it at 609 merchants for 3.1 Million tons of shipping between 12/41 and 12/42

Agreed....not a bad return. In fact this represented the most successful campaign for the Uboats of the entire war. The losses amount to 1/4 of all merchants lost in the war to u-boats. Total German losses amounted to 22 Uboats (10 IV's, 12 VII's)

Some relevent facts and factoids

Total patrols mounted = 184 (80 Type IX ; 104 Type VII)

The campaign was noted for it's high # of tankers bagged : 143 (92 new tankers were produced during this same period)

The campaign was an indisputable "blow" to the Allied effort and was the cause of much friction between the US and Britian but was hardly a "crippling blow" due to the total size of the Allied shipping pool which constituted over 30 million gross tons + new construction (for example, 925,000 new tons in tanker tonnage for 1942)

The US compensated for the loss of oil flow by utilizing alternate oil delivery methods and gas rationing

Ironically, had Donietz, "had his way" the campaign might have been less sucessful as he favored sending more Type VII's vs the Type IX's which in this one case, were more productive.

It had a reletively small effect on the vital lifeline transporting cargo from America to the British Isles

Blair balances some of the above by stating emphatically that it should not be concluded that the American Uboat campaign was of no small consequence but points out as per the gist of his work that Doneitz never achieved the decisive strategic goals sought.

The ultimate achievement thus made by the Uboats of Drumbeat was that it forced the Allies to commit vast resources to extending the convoy network to the Eastern Seaboard, the Gulf of Mexico, the Carrabean and Latin America

The result of which was quickly diminishing returns for the boats as ASW improved and expanded [/B][/QUOTE]

I was watching a documentary the other day, and eye-witnesses stated they had seen a U-boat come so close to shore (in the Gulf of Mexico) that they were able to watch as a U-boat sank an oil tanker in 1942.

Battle of the Atlantic and Operation Drumbeat - look what just a handful of boats could do.

Again, it only confirms Germany's lost opportunities by not expanding the U-boat fleet more before war broke out.

Cheers!




Nikademus -> (7/26/2003 8:08:00 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Von Rom

Again, it only confirms Germany's lost opportunities by not expanding the U-boat fleet more before war broke out.

Cheers! [/B][/QUOTE]

I wouldn't agree with that at least without heavy qualification. First off, Drumbeat represents the most successful campaign of the U-boat war, yet the statistics, supported by Blair's analysis would suggest that it didn't come close to crippling the Allies, and if that was the case then what of the other less successful components of the U-boat war? Keep in mind that the latter part of the war saw ever increasing amounts of Uboats churned out yet returns continued to diminish while Uboat casualties rose. Also these results were achieved against a nation and navy that was ill prepared to deal with the threat. The same could not be said for Britian which while it too had deficiencies, entered the conflict with a better appreciation of the potential fobiles. A 300+ sub building program would have sent alarm bells from one side of Parliment to the other. This is the biggest flaw of the "build more Uboats" argument because nothing occurs in a vaccuum. Had Germany attempted to build a fleet of 300 Uboats, there would have been a serious reaction, not to mention it would have been impractical at best. No fledgling navy could be expected to build only a submarine fleet any more than one might expect Japan.....an island nation totally dependant on her merchant fleet to survive, to build only a large fleet of ASW vessels.

Lastly, numbers alone would not solve Germany's issues. There was also a serious technology gap, that only increased as the war progressed, the industrial potential of the Allies, the issue of codebreaking, and the problems inherant with Doneitz's heavy use of radio that added to that quandry.




Von Rom -> (7/26/2003 8:16:14 AM)

Here is a paper I have re-produced in part that examines the U-boat impact on the Allied war effort. It was written by Michel Thomas Poirier, Commander, USN.

It is worth reading. And while reading it, consider the impact, if Germany had committed even more U-boats to the war effort.


Chief of Naval Operations
Submarine Warfare Division


RESULTS OF THE GERMAN AND AMERICAN

SUBMARINE CAMPAIGNS

OF WORLD WAR II

By

Michel Thomas Poirier
Commander, USN
20 Oct 1999



A Short Lesson on Naval Strategy

Traditionally, naval forces seek to gain victory by defeating opposing naval forces, thereby allowing unfettered use of the seas to project power to distant areas of the world. The American theorist Alfred Thayer Mahan most effectively articulated the view that destruction of the enemy battle fleet was the precursor to effective control of the sea.(9) The U.S., British and Japanese Navies all subscribed to the importance of Mahanian battle and therefore focused doctrinally on the destruction of the enemy battle fleet.(10) This predisposition to force on force planning remains in the U.S. Navy today.

Mahan downplayed the importance of the guerre de course, the concept of employing naval forces against an opposing merchant marine.(11) Navies too weak to directly attack opposing navies have employed the guerre de course as a way to deny use of the sea to their opponents with historically mixed results. However, war during the industrial age has increased the importance of sea lines of communications (SLOCs). Twentieth century armies based overseas require substantial maritime support in order to supply their immense logistical needs.(12) Destroying or reducing the flow of the ships meeting these logistical needs constitutes an important vulnerability to the ability to project power overseas. Furthermore, some nations (including Japan), lack important natural resources, and must import enormous amounts of raw materials for industrial use. Interdiction of these resources by conducting attacks against sea lines of communications provides another means of reducing an enemy's ability to support modern warfare

U.S. planning today assumes that we will be able to effectively defend our flow of follow on forces with little thought as to how this will be done. Logistical planning is simply a matter of ensuring that the proper supplies are loaded on the right ships. The lessons learned from the campaigns we will study indicate that the United States should plan for the potential efforts of an adversary to attack American sea lines of communication in order to inhibit our ability to project power.


The German U-boat Campaign in the Atlantic: 1939-1945

At the start of World War II, the German Navy was too small to directly challenge the English fleet for control of the sea. The only strategic possibility for the Germans was to attack allied commerce using their small submarine fleet. Throughout the war, the German Navy conducted a classic guerre de course, using aircraft, surface units and, above all, submarines to attempt to destroy allied commerce. Admiral Donitz's (head of the German submarine force) strategy employed his U-boats at the weakest point in enemy defenses where they could sink a maximum of tonnage.(13) Donitz's goal, therefore, was to cut England's supply of war materiel and, later, to prevent American productive and military capability from influencing the European theater.

In six years of pitched battles throughout the Atlantic, German U-boats, often employing wolfpack tactics and night surface attacks, attempted to destroy opposing convoys. Throughout the war, Allied scientific and technical developments, along with improvements in tactical doctrine, competed fiercely against German technical and doctrinal development. In the end, the vast allied productive capability, which assured plentiful escorts and merchant ships, and superior tactics, weapons and sensors resulted in Allied victory. After May 1943, although they attempted several additional challenges to allied supply lines, the Germans never could truly contest Allied control of the sea.

Direct Effects

During the war the Germans sank 5,150 allied ships displacing 21.57 million tons. Of this, the U-boats were responsible for 2828 ships of 14.69 million tons.(14) To place this in perspective, the Germans sank the equivalent of the entire British merchant fleet at the start of the war.(15) Additionally, submarines destroyed 187 warships, including 6 aircraft carriers and 2 battleships.(16) However, this tremendous destruction came at a heavy price: the Germans lost 785 submarines of 1,158 constructed.

These losses and the loss of valuable cargo are the direct effects of the Battle of the Atlantic. In the end, however, the U-boats did not prevent the U.S. from supplying England with military and industrial goods or food, nor from building up U.S. forces in England (Operation Bolero), nor from providing Russia with substantial material help. Thus, most historians see the Battle of the Atlantic as a German failure.

Indirect Effects

There were, however, substantial indirect and second order effects on the allied war effort. These effects resulted in significant allied logistical constraints. For example, the indirect effects of convoying severely reduced allied transportation capacity. The Allies calculated that a ship took 18-48% longer to sail in convoy.(17) Donitz estimated the loss of time at 33% on average.(18) The impact on Army logistics and U.S. strategy was significant. In response to the German campaign, the U.S. ordered much greater quantities of munitions and supplies that was actually needed, in order to "fill the pipeline," to replace cargoes lost at sea and as a hedge against the Germans cutting the Atlantic supply lanes.(19)

The result of this "loss of time" combined with significant losses (up until July 1943, Allied merchant ship losses exceeded production) had two effects on the Allied war effort. First, the Allies needed to produce and ship more war material than was actually required in theater. Secondly, the Allies possessed less logistical carrying capacity than desired. As a result of the lack of merchant shipping and material, the U.S. Army significantly reduced the size of their planned buildup to far more modest proportions (the original intention in 1942 was to build a large army of 16-17 million men).(20) Although speculative, it is probable that such a reduction meant that the combined U.S. and British Armies would have been incapable of defeating the Wehrmacht without the sizeable Red Army in the war.(21)

Effects on War Production

The U-boat attack on allied supply lines had a pronounced second order effect on allied production priorities. Throughout the war, the Allies had to prioritize between warship, merchant and amphibious production (as well as other uses for steel). In the fall of 1942, the Allies increased amphibious shipping to their highest production priority in a crash program to prepare for Roundup (the planned 1943 cross channel invasion).(22) Yet this buildup came at a difficult time when the Navy was 'straining' to replace the losses from Pearl Harbor, construct a battle fleet to win back dominance of the Pacific and build sufficient escorts and merchants to prevail against the potent German U-boat offensive."(23)

By the winter of 1942-43, the Allies cut back the landing craft program and increased escort production in order to counter renewed losses to German U-boats.(24) Hall concurs, noting that landing craft production was removed from FDR's "must" (highest priority for war production) program comprising rubber, high octane fuel, aircraft, escort vessels, and merchant shipping and pointing out that the change in priority was due to the need to increase escort production.(25) Landing craft production fell off from 105,000 tons in Feb 1943 to 51,000 tons in July 1943.(26)

The Allies' lack of landing craft would logistically constrain allied forces for the rest of the war. General George Marshall noted a "shortage which would plague us to the final day of the war in Europe-the shortage of assault craft, LSTs, LCIs and smaller vessels. This he described as the greatest by far of all the problems."(27) The British official review analyzed the situation in a similar way:

"In so far as the delays in launching the offensive could be attributed to an insufficient supply of landing craft, they were in the last resort due to the high strategic and industrial priority which the Allied leaders assigned to the defense of the shipping lanes."(28)

Operational Impact of German Submarine Offensive

To get full measure of the effects of the Battle of the Atlantic on Allied strategy, we must look at the combined effects of inadequate numbers of landing craft and inadequacy of logistical means due to heavy losses of merchant ships. Hall notes that:

"At most conferences of the heads of governments, the shipping experts of both countries met to consider the shipping aspects of any plan under consideration. Account was taken in such discussions both of ships already existing and the timetables for the completion of new ships. Such conferences dealt with a series of facts, or probabilities, some of which it was not too difficult to estimate- such as existing tonnage, rate of production, rate of sinkings. Thus at the Casablanca Conference, in January 1943, shipping- including landing craft and escort vessels- played a major role in the choice between offensives in France, Sicily, Burma and the Pacific."(29)

Heavy shipping losses and the resulting lack of logistical capacity played a prominent role in ruling out a 1943 invasion of France. Experts calculated only 8 U.S. divisions could be transported to Europe (11 without convoy restrictions) by the spring of 1943. Even if the invasion was delayed till September, U.S. forces would number only 12 divisions- which combined with 13 British divisions would be badly outnumbered by the 44 German divisions stationed in the West.(30)

With a cross channel invasion out of the question for 1943, the Allies embarked on a major effort in the Mediterranean - yet logistical constraints and landing craft limitations played a key and limiting role in the formulation of strategy throughout the southern theater. For example, concern over the line of communications played a deciding role in limiting the Allied attack on North Africa to the west of that continent rather than an early allied lodgment in Tunisia.(31) Additionally, at the Casablanca conference, logistical constraints and security of shipping was the key consideration in the selection of Sicily rather than Sardinia as the next target for Allied attack, and in the strong American opposition to more ambitious undertakings against Italy or in the eastern Mediterreanean.(32)

During the fall of 1943, allied victory in the Battle of the Atlantic resulted in another change of allied war production priorities. Allied leaders pared back escort production and again increased the priority of amphibious assault shipping.(33) The change came too late to prevent serious restrictions on Allied strategy and the feasibility of operations throughout 1944. Lack of assault and merchant shipping continued to plague Allied planners and resulted in heated discussions at the Cairo and Tehran conferences of late 1943 regarding what operations would be pursued. Lack of lift resulted in abandonment of operations in the Eastern Mediterranean.(34) Despite FDR's promise to Chiang Kai-shek, the Allies cancelled amphibious assaults planned against Japanese forces in Burma.(35) Lack of assault shipping and the desire to maintain an attack up the Italian peninsula towards Rome, resulted in the Allies postponing the Overlord invasion by more than one month.(36) Of greater import, the same lack of assault shipping resulted in postponement of the invasion of Southern France (Anvil). Originally designed to draw mobile German forces away from Normandy, Anvil as executed in August was "disconnected strategically" from Overlord and served little utility.(37)

Reduced Strategic Mobility and the British Import Crisis

Logistical constraints, attributable to the Battle of the Atlantic, resulted in two interesting "what-ifs" affecting the allied effort in Northern France. First, divisions sent into the Mediterranean Theater were "irrevocably bound there for lack of shipping to deploy them elsewhere."(38) While these Allied divisions tied down German troops in Italy, they were unavailable to exploit or reinforce Allied efforts in Northern France, a theater, by the way, which was much more suitable for offensive operations and logistical support. Secondly, had U-boat successes continued for several months longer in 1943 the Allies might have been incapable of a cross channel invasion in 1944. British imports fell to lower than sustainable levels early in 1943, resulting in a request for the U.S. to turn over a large amount of shipping to provide for British import needs. Despite warnings that the total American lift to England and the Mediterranean in 1943 could fall from 1.5 million to 800,000 men, FDR approved the transfer of transports. Only the sudden and unexpected defeat of the U-boats provided a respite for the Allies-and allowed the transports to England to buildup adequate forces for a Cross Channel invasion in 1944.(39)

The U-boat guerre de course clearly imposed logistical constraints on the Allies and limited their strategic freedom of action. Indeed, one can argue that the Battle of the Atlantic may have delayed the conclusion of the war.

The disproportionate costs and logistical constraints imposed on the Allies leads one to question the verdict of history that the campaign was a "failure" for Germany. While ultimately, German submariners did not win a decisive victory in the Atlantic, these iron warriors clearly gained time for the German war machine- an extraordinary feat considering that Germany started the war with just 57 submarines and eventually fought the world's two biggest navies combined. The German clearly waged an effective guerre de course.




Von Rom -> (7/26/2003 8:30:06 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nikademus
[B]I wouldn't agree with that at least without heavy qualification. First off, Drumbeat represents the most successful campaign of the U-boat war, yet the statistics, supported by Blair's analysis would suggest that it didn't come close to crippling the Allies, and if that was the case then what of the other less successful components of the U-boat war? Keep in mind that the latter part of the war saw ever increasing amounts of Uboats churned out yet returns continued to diminish while Uboat casualties rose. Also these results were achieved against a nation and navy that was ill prepared to deal with the threat. The same could not be said for Britian which while it too had deficiencies, entered the conflict with a better appreciation of the potential fobiles. A 300+ sub building program would have sent alarm bells from one side of Parliment to the other. This is the biggest flaw of the "build more Uboats" argument because nothing occurs in a vaccuum. Had Germany attempted to build a fleet of 300 Uboats, there would have been a serious reaction, not to mention it would have been impractical at best. No fledgling navy could be expected to build only a submarine fleet any more than one might expect Japan.....an island nation totally dependant on her merchant fleet to survive, to build only a large fleet of ASW vessels.

Lastly, numbers alone would not solve Germany's issues. There was also a serious technology gap, that only increased as the war progressed, the industrial potential of the Allies, the issue of codebreaking, and the problems inherant with Doneitz's heavy use of radio that added to that quandry. [/B][/QUOTE]

I wonder if alarm bells would have been rung. By July, 1942, Germany had about 331 U-boats in operation. At the end of 1941, they had 236 U-boats.

Even though the Battle of the Atlantic had been raging for more than two years, and the threat of the U-boat had been clearly established with at least two hundred German subs prowling the waters, the US was still defenseless, and was caught off guard in Operation Drumbeat - for 6 months.




Nikademus -> (7/26/2003 8:31:35 AM)

Well this article really does not address the points Blair brings up and makes some weighty but vague claims on the impact of the uboats on the Allied war effort.....claims that Blair's books dispute with a heavy dosage of statistical data and a high level of detail. Neither does this article address the challenges faced by the Uboats at war's start nor the ever increasing technology gap that furthered the odds against them. Challenges that simple increased numbers cannot address if one is expecting strategic and decisive results

But you hardly need to take my word for it. I recommend his books highly though be forewarned that they are very heavy reading




Nikademus -> (7/26/2003 8:37:05 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Von Rom
[B]I wonder if alarm bells would have been rung. By July, 1942, Germany had about 331 U-boats in operation. At the end of 1941, they had 236 U-boats.

Even though the Battle of the Atlantic had been raging for more than two years, and the threat of the U-boat had been clearly established with at least two hundred German subs prowling the waters, the US was still defenseless, and was caught off guard in Operation Drumbeat - for 6 months. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hard to say as, along with the idea of the Germans attempting to build 300 Uboats in secret, we now travel down the murky road of pure speculation. On a conservative note, The US might not have been so willing to part with some of it's destroyer fleet as it did historically. On a more liberal note......news of such a massive program might have reversed the the order of priorities set forth in the Two Ocean navy plan by the US with ASW assets bumped up on the scale along with a faster acceptance of the British design for the original "Liberty ship"

One thing that remains constant however, again, is the technology gap and no redress of the German naval build program would have touched that, nor Doneitz's under-appreciation for Allied sonar, radar or and most importantly "HUFF-DUFF" (radio detection and triangulation)




mogami -> Torpedos (7/26/2003 8:54:45 AM)

Hi, And we've all just decided to cure the German torpedo problem. The USN had 29 Subs around PI (one of the largest concentrations of subs in the world in Dec 41)(About equal to the total number of German subs deployed in Sept 39) And they did diddly squat because of the training, cautiousness, and bad torpedos. (I know of at least 2 occasions where a USN sub fired 12 or more torpedos at a single target to no effect)
Didn't Prien come back from Scapa Flow cursing the bad luck of firing more duds then working torpedos? (With a few curses directed at the Torpedo program)

Unless we assume the Germans have working torpedos the number of U-boats is not important. Now by the time the US enters the war we can say the problem is fixed. But is it fixed in time to defeat the Royal Navy?

Also none of these quoted works seems to pay any attention to my oft stated statistic.

The Germans came out behind in the required tonnage sunk simply by adding neutral fleets to the allies. (never mind production)

If at the start you need to sink x tons per month and attain y total
but after 6 months you add more tons to the allied total then you have sunk to date you have lost ground. (now you need to sink x+q per month. All the while your window of victory is smaller.)
In Dec 1941 the Germans have to start all over again. (and the totals are much higher now then in Sept 39)

I also liked the Allied planners using the word inadequate for Allied landing craft. They only had enough to land 5 div in 1 day in Europe. (I mean the allied idea of what would have been adequate must have been enormous. The Germans or Japanese would have been very happy to have landing craft enough to land 5 div in one day in June 1944. (Allied spare change. I believe 5 coke bottling plants were landed at Normandy)(I can see the Japanese officer planning an invasion requesting shipping for 5 pop bottling plants)




Von Rom -> (7/26/2003 9:07:05 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nikademus
[B]Well this article really does not address the points Blair brings up and makes some weighty but vague claims on the impact of the uboats on the Allied war effort.....claims that Blair's books dispute with a heavy dosage of statistical data and a high level of detail. Neither does this article address the challenges faced by the Uboats at war's start nor the ever increasing technology gap that furthered the odds against them. Challenges that simple increased numbers cannot address if one is expecting strategic and decisive results

But you hardly need to take my word for it. I recommend his books highly though be forewarned that they are very heavy reading [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi :)

I have read Blair's books. Yes, they contain a lot of data and stats and facts. . .

But one thing his books do not contain is the psychological impact of the U-boat campaign. The U-boat was a terror weapon.

The Allied leaders were men with human emotions, who read lists of ship sinkings and of dead soldiers and sailors. They had to take into account the lives of their men, something historians do not have to do. These men were also the product of their times: they lived through some of the darkest days of the 20th Century.

I believe Churchill over any historian, when he stated, "The only thing that ever frightened me during the war was the U-boat peril". He lived through every day of the war; he had access to all the in-coming reports; the secret intelligence, etc.

It is one thing to say to a merchant Captain in 1941: "Hey, the German U-boat can now only sink two ships per day." It is quite another to tell him: "One of those ships that might be sunk could be yours."




Nikademus -> (7/26/2003 9:08:53 AM)

forget the neutrals :) , here's a scary statistic just from the American camp, May 42 - sept 42 during "The Happy Time"

Tonnage sunk = 2,813,370
Tonnage built = 2,634,000

add to that 1.3 million tons of new shipping built by the UK during 1942 and 1/2 million tons built by the Canadians. You start to get the picture. It was a whole different ball park in WWII and as in all other areas, the Axis faced a serious pitfall due to the sheer industrial might of the Allies. A gulf that only widens as the US economy and ship industry gears up.

an oft not considered factoid as well was that the new ships averaged 7,300 tons whilst the older shipping sunk tended to average around 4,900 tons, so less 'new' shipping was required to equal or surprass the tonnage of older shipping lost.




Von Rom -> (7/26/2003 9:17:01 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nikademus
[B]Hard to say as, along with the idea of the Germans attempting to build 300 Uboats in secret, we now travel down the murky road of pure speculation. On a conservative note, The US might not have been so willing to part with some of it's destroyer fleet as it did historically. On a more liberal note......news of such a massive program might have reversed the the order of priorities set forth in the Two Ocean navy plan by the US with ASW assets bumped up on the scale along with a faster acceptance of the British design for the original "Liberty ship"

One thing that remains constant however, again, is the technology gap and no redress of the German naval build program would have touched that, nor Doneitz's under-appreciation for Allied sonar, radar or and most importantly "HUFF-DUFF" (radio detection and triangulation) [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi again :D

I didn't say that 300 U-boats could be built in secret. What I did say was that Hitler should have switched building priorities, to put more emphasis in the production of U-boats.

When one considers the impact that a few U-boats had on the war, especially in the first few years, then one has to consider what even more U-boats would have accomplished.

The discussion has been very interesting. A lot of good points have been raised. But I think we have high-jacked this thread long enough. :D

Cheers!




HMSWarspite -> (7/26/2003 4:40:59 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Von Rom
[B]Before 1935, at least 14 U-boats were built abroad in Spain, Holland, Turkey, Finland etc as well as 6 being built secretly in German shipyards. This does not include the training schools, torpedoes, parts, infrastructure, etc, etc that were being developed and tested abroad, which had essentially placed Germany years ahead in U-boat construction.[/B][/QUOTE]

I do not have records of the foreign boats you mention. The only operational foreign boats were all captured after the war began. (1 UK, 2 Norwegian, 5 Dutch, 1 French (+2 more never completed) 4 It (after the surrender), and one Turkish taken over whilst building in Ge)Most of these never did war patrols. If boats were built abroad prior to 1935, they were not operational types. I think you are overestimating the effectiveness (in terms of Boats at sea) of the pre1935 preparations.

[QUOTE][B]So much research and testing had been done prior to 1935, that within one year of renouncing the Versailles treaty, Germany was able to launch 36 U-boats in 1935-36. If Hitler had placed priority on U-boat construction, then, building 30 U-boats per year, gives us a total of: 36 (1936) + 30 (1937) + 30 (1938) + 30 (1939) = 126 U-boats in 1939 (or double what it initially started with).[/B][/QUOTE]

The 36 boats you mention from 1935-6 were all laid down in 1935 or later, and took from 4 months to just over 1 year to build and commision. The yard was knocking out Type 2 U Boats in c 4 months, but never built a type 7 in less than 10 months (average 11). I do not see much evidence of the effect of pre1935 preparation on build. The preparation gave them the first designs, not a head start in building.
Here are the rates of laying down of the boats in 35-36 (by month)
Type 1: 1 in June35, 1 in Aug 35
Type 2: Feb35 (6), Mar (2), Apr(2),May(2), June(1),Jul(4), Aug (2), Sept(1), Mar36(2), Apr(2),
Type 7: Jan35(1), sept(2), dec(1), Jan36(1), Feb(1),Mar(4),
Type 9: 0 Nil Nada.

The rates of commissioning of boats (by year), in order Type 1, 2, 7, 9 are:
1935: 0, 14, 0, 0
1936: 2 (took a long time to build the type 1s!),10, 9,0
1937: 0, 0, 1, 0
1938: 0,2,4,3
1939: 0,5,7,6 (63 in grand total - some commissioned after 9/39)

The key thing to note is the type 7 and 9 rates, only 7 type 7 boats in 1939 entered the fleet, and 6 type 9. They did commission 10 type 7 in 1936 and early 37. But then they stopped building, and changed from 7A to 7B. The main difference between the 7A and 7B was fuel tankage. In my book that means that trials/peacetime experience showed they needed more range, and a design change. A much more realistic maximum rate build up really doesn't allow the rate to increase the ocean going boats much from where it was - or if they did, they would have built say 9 Type 7A per year (1936-9). This might actually hinder the tonnage war, by delaying the 7B and C boats, and still only gives 36+9=45 ocean boats (vs the 30 they had). Better but not 300 boats!

[QUOTE][B]I think it ultimately came down to priorities: Hitler squandered so many resources and time on outlandish projects such as battleships, etc; rather than focus attention on the U-boat fleet. By the time this was being done, it was already too late. [/B][/QUOTE]

This is true, BUT RELATES TO THE 1940-1944 period. I maintain that the Germans were not going to have many more boats than they actualy did. Say they doubled the type 7 and 9 output (not realistic for the reasons above) - this gives 60 ocean boats, and 33 coastal (93 boats....still nowhere near 300).

The answer to a 'what if' war is the employment of the boats they did have in 1940-41, enigma, radar etc.etc. The numbers game just wont wash, especially in a sort of 1939-1940 bull rush approach. If (by some miracle) the Germans did build even 200 boats before the war, the UK would have countered.




HMSWarspite -> (7/26/2003 4:53:43 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nikademus
[B]forget the neutrals :) , here's a scary statistic just from the American camp, May 42 - sept 42 during "The Happy Time"

Tonnage sunk = 2,813,370
Tonnage built = 2,634,000

add to that 1.3 million tons of new shipping built by the UK during 1942 and 1/2 million tons built by the Canadians. You start to get the picture. It was a whole different ball park in WWII and as in all other areas, the Axis faced a serious pitfall due to the sheer industrial might of the Allies. A gulf that only widens as the US economy and ship industry gears up.

an oft not considered factoid as well was that the new ships averaged 7,300 tons whilst the older shipping sunk tended to average around 4,900 tons, so less 'new' shipping was required to equal or surprass the tonnage of older shipping lost. [/B][/QUOTE]

Scary statistic indeed, and shows the issue for the Germans. In the most effective part of the war, when the u Boats had a field day, they gained less than 200000 tons on the US, and came nowhere near the Allies total builds. Scary, but not a war winner. Bad news for the crews involved, but this needed to be kept up, and exceeded quarter after quarter for a year or more....

Sinking this sort of rate in 1940 now...much different issue (but just scaling the U Boat numbers doesn't hack it for me! - see elsewhere)




Kitakami -> (7/26/2003 10:12:52 PM)

Much has been said so far, with quotes from scholars to back it up.

I am not a military scholar, so my comments on the subject will be merely the opinion of a layman. But what if Germany had not built the Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Bismarck and Tirpitz had never been built, and the Graf Zeppelin had never been laid down, and all those resources had been directed at building U-boots?

We are talking about some 170 thousand tons of displacement or so, that could have been poured into the U-boot fleet. I strongly believe that would have had a serious impact on the War for the Atlantic.

Another thing I would like to comment on, is that if more U-boots had been available, the percentage of losses would probably have diminished, as they would have put a bigger strain on Allied ASW defenses.

But as I said, I am not serious scholar, so take all this with a grain of salt.




Mr.Frag -> (7/26/2003 10:45:41 PM)

[QUOTE]Tonnage sunk = 2,813,370
Tonnage built = 2,634,000[/QUOTE]

Missing the point really ... yes, the Allieds almost caught up in building compared to losses but those ships sunk were also full of supplies. Just because you replaced the losses ship wise barely, doesn't mean the supplies got to the Uk and Russia. If they had, the war would have been over years sooner.

Just looking at it from a weight perspective, assume a Sherman + ammo = 50 tons ... thats over 30,000 tanks that could have make it accross the shores to fight that didn't. Pretty dramatic for a handful of U-Boats.

This is with the old crap boats, which were really not up to the task by submarine standards. Had Germany had the XXI designs soon enough to enter the war (the first real submarine), I have to wonder if the building capacity would have even mattered.




Von Rom -> (7/26/2003 10:55:09 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kitakami
[B]Much has been said so far, with quotes from scholars to back it up.

I am not a military scholar, so my comments on the subject will be merely the opinion of a layman. But what if Germany had not built the Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Bismarck and Tirpitz had never been built, and the Graf Zeppelin had never been laid down, and all those resources had been directed at building U-boots?

We are talking about some 170 thousand tons of displacement or so, that could have been poured into the U-boot fleet. I strongly believe that would have had a serious impact on the War for the Atlantic.

Another thing I would like to comment on, is that if more U-boots had been available, the percentage of losses would probably have diminished, as they would have put a bigger strain on Allied ASW defenses.

But as I said, I am not serious scholar, so take all this with a grain of salt. [/B][/QUOTE]

Long before the war, Doenitz had a plan for his U-boats - the Wolfpack concept was a long-held concept for him. He had a strategic grasp of the use of his U-boats.

Hitler, on the other hand, being a land animal, failed to grasp the real use of U-boats until it was too late. He was always fixated on the east.

Some historians focus on the U-boat campaign in isolation, without realizing the incredible potential the U-boat offered. Doenitz always understood this. But as always everything came too late.

There is a reason why Churchill feared the U-boat.

Let's look at the Med Camp.

If Hitler had built more U-boats (and the infrastructure, etc was already there), and had NOT attacked the USSR in 1941 (but delayed it for a year), and instead focused on North Africa, then it would have been a different situation.

With an additional 50-60 U-boats in the Med alone, to isolate Malta and to sink convoys ferrying troops/supplies to Tobruk/Alexandria along with the addition of a couple more panzer divisions, Hitler could have taken all of North Africa, captured the oil fields, AND allowed for another avenue of attack against the USSR from the south.

If just 12 U-boats along the east coast of the USA could sink 585 ships, then imagine what 25, 50 or 100 U-boats could have accomplished. Incidently, 100 U-boats was the number Doenitz wanted to send. He was the architect of Operation Drumbeat.

By mid-1941, Germany was at the height of its power. But for some incredibly short-sighted and stupid actions, and some incredible luck, Germany had the potential for success.

There is much talk that any of Germany's actions or anything it built could be countered, etc. But politics, human nature, and the facts of history run counter to this thinking.

A few examples:

1) Britain barely had time to build more fighters before the Battle of Britain began. Yet, for years Churchill had warned the people about Germany's secret aircraft construction and the danger this posed to Britain's security. For all his tireless efforts, Churchill was scorned and vilified. Even the British Gov't, which knew better, lied to the people. It was a close-run thing, and almost led to disaster.

2) In 1942, even after Pearl Harbour, even after 2 1/2 years of war, and even after being warned by British Intelligence, America was STILL unprepared to deal with the U-boat when it struck along the east coast, and sank almost 600 ships.

3) Stalin, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, believed Hitler would not attack him, even as German troops were poised to strike on June 21, 1941.

To believe that any and all threats will be/would be countered, simply runs counter to most human thinking, to the problems posed by politics and human nature, as well as to the ample evidence of history.

It took 4 years before the U-boat threat had been dealt with. Four years. The Allies were lucky they had four years. They were lucky Hitler made some incredible mistakes.

Evolutionists are fond of saying, if given enough time, a monkey can pound out a coherent letter on a typewriter.

But occasionally, there may not be enough time. . .

Cheers!




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