RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (Full Version)

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redrum68 -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/11/2020 5:40:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Yes immediate HQs, they are the only ones involved in supply, the higher HQs are not involved at all.

The higher ones are involved in ratings checks. So as eskuche said the next highest HQ should be 1 or less hexes away for no range penalty etc. But this is rare. A good rule of thumb is keep higher HQs as close as possible for ratings checks, but keep them close to rails and not zig zagging to avoid using vehicles too much.


Ok. Is there any guide on higher HQ placement and ratings checks? Or some good examples? I feel like I'm starting to have a good feel for the Corps HQs but for the higher HQs I feel like I'm just moving them around randomly :)



eskuche -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/11/2020 5:48:37 PM)

Yep. As I mentioned above it can be good to see the effects for yourself. Specifically for German Corps–Army chain, the Army HQ rolls only if the Corps roll fails. However, immediate HQ (Corps here) roll their rating to pass rand(10) + modifiers, whilst each upward level doubles the roll range (plus modifiers). The distance modifier for two HQs up is distance from higher HQ (Army) to unit divided by two.

You can conclude from this that it’s not mandatory to be within 2 hexes of each battle, especially if the corps commander is good. The difference between being one hex away and ten hexes away changes the Army roll range from 20 to 25, but this is only if the corps roll failed. The strongest effects you’ll see, then, will be for strong army commanders with weak corps commanders. Morale rolls are the exception as they have no distance penalty.



eskuche -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/11/2020 6:04:49 PM)

As an easy minimal test case, look at your airbases and consider only the air rating. Luftflotte 1 should have 1 airbase under direct control and the others under fliegercorps control. See if you can work out the numbers from there moving the HQs around.

An example for AGC air which has the same setup: the airbase directly under Luftflotte will ALWAYS have 80% because Kesselrinf has an 8 rating, and distance to immediate HQ doesn’t matter. Airbases under fliegerkorps VIII (Richthofen has air 8) will range from 80 something % up to 88% when Luftflotte is next to the airbase. This is because there is 80% to pass the roll based on Fliegerkorps. If this fails, (20% of the time) the chance the backup roll will succeed is 8 out of (20 plus distance/2). When distance is zero from airbase to Luftflotte, the 8/20= 40% to succeed if the initial roll fails equals 88% overall rating.



redrum68 -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/11/2020 6:24:08 PM)

@eskuche - Ok, that makes sense. I guess in theory having your Army leader almost "fill the weak spots" and have high ratings where your Corps leaders have low ratings would be ideal. Though it generally seems at least in the scenario I'm playing that most leader ratings are fairly even (I don't see many 3 admin, 9 initiate leaders as most are like 5/6/7 across the board).

The air example makes sense and also leads to the conclusion that generally you want to push air bases and divisions as far down the chain as possible so they get more leader check opportunities. In your example, trying to re-assign the airbase directly under Luftflotte to fliegerkorps VIII as long as it has the command capacity since the leaders have equal ratings.

I guess what I'm interested in is how players actually apply this knowledge to the game? Are most people driving their Army leader "across the front" as they do various battles to get better check percentages and using up most of the HQ MP each turn? Or do most players just put it somewhere at the beginning or end of the turn and let it sit there as that's good enough and I guess would save trucks?



eskuche -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/11/2020 6:34:39 PM)

A rather esoteric exception is that if a unit is directly attached to a non-lowest HQ the HQ needs to be 1-4 spaces to allow checks. See for example RHG commands which are army level.

Like joelmar said above, trucks seem to be not a limiting factor in 1.12 versions so I will move around army and luftflotte HQs as needed (when I have the mental capacity to do so). If one were playing perfectly they would assign expensive (in terms of trucks) SUs down from army into corps before starting the moving. Remember the additional cost for moving is one truck per supply or fuel dump per 100% movement. So the army HQs potentially spend an additional 1000 trucks per turn each moving. You can decide whether and where that’s worth the 1-10% boost to ratings for attack, e.g. for weak Romanian commanders.



eskuche -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/11/2020 6:35:51 PM)

Also note that in v1.12+ you can see how many trucks a unit uses for resupply (separate from movement truck use which is tied to dumps in HQ units) at the bottom of the supply details screen



Telemecus -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/12/2020 9:45:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68
I guess what I'm interested in is how players actually apply this knowledge to the game? Are most people driving their Army leader "across the front" as they do various battles to get better check percentages and using up most of the HQ MP each turn? Or do most players just put it somewhere at the beginning or end of the turn and let it sit there as that's good enough and I guess would save trucks?


In v1.11.03, and I think still best practise for v1.12, do not put the High Commands or Army group HQs so far forward that their rail repair construction units are out of range for rail repair. This particualrly seems to happen with AGS HQ in many games I have seen.

In v1.11.03 I would tend to only drive the higher HQs in staright lines eastward and not zig zag. So for example I might drive 18th army right to the Neva river so that it is close for the critical battle when you try to cross the river to capture Leningrad. I would not deviate it to Talinn for one battle and then down to Velkie Luki say for another. So my principle is so long as you are not zig zagging it is OK to drive army HQs up to the front lines and ideally to the key battle each turn. If there is no key battle then leave the army HQ and other HQs on a repaired rail line hex or at least do not move it further away from one.

As eskuche pointed out this might not be valid anymore for v1.12 for truck use. Nevertheless there may be other reasons. For example driving an HQ with SUs containing AFVs (e.g. StuGs) can lead to significant damage of their armoured vehicles. So it might still make sense to avoid driving HQs with those SUs inside them. Although you still have the option of assigning them down first before moving the army HQ.



redrum68 -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/13/2020 2:59:51 AM)

Ok, that makes sense. Essentially try to prioritize having them close to major battles but don't run them all over the place.



Telemecus -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/13/2020 10:32:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68
Ok, that makes sense. Essentially try to prioritize having them close to major battles but don't run them all over the place.


perfectly put - I wish I had thought of those succinct words!



redrum68 -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/13/2020 6:33:06 PM)

Turn 4

So after a pretty quiet turn 3, the German infantry are poised to capture Pskov and the Finnish front unlocks so lots of potential for action! The Soviet AI has decided to leave significant forces to hold Pskov which we will try to make him pay for.

Turn Objectives
1. Capture and hold Pskov
2. Pocket as many Soviet divisions as possible around Pskov especially armor and motorized
3. Begin the assault on the Finnish front

Here is the start of the turn along the 2 fronts:
[image]local://upfiles/58324/49420A26A1014E69BECC02F005DFB413.jpg[/image]



redrum68 -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/13/2020 6:47:41 PM)

Turn 4 Summary

Tips
- Ideally keeping army/panzer group HQs as close to the divisions in important battles as possible helps with leader checks so I moved most of the army/panzer group HQs closer to the front lines just west of Pskov. Though its probably best to not move them around all over the place to avoid wasting too many trucks.
- Resting or not using all the movement on a few panzer/motorized divisions can be useful so that the following turn they are much closer to max MP and then will hopefully take advantage of newly converted friendly territory to reduce MP usage.

Finns
So the top half of the Finnish Front is unlocked this turn. First, I reassign a few divisions to avoid command penalties and organize a bit better. Then attack along the weak spots along the front and move forward into those created gaps. This will force the Soviets to either back up their units or risk being pocketed next turn.

Germans
First, used the remaining AP to replace a few more leaders. The infantry then attack across the Pskov line especially focusing in the north and south so the bulk of the Soviet units in the center of the line can be pocketed. This goes very well and then a few panzer/motorized divisions surge through to create 3 small pockets. They aren't perfectly sealed but without sending more soviet units down to break the pockets, I don't think the units themselves will be able to break out. A few panzer divisions actually save most of their movement this turn to prepare for a thrust northeast towards Novgorod and Leningrad next turn.

End of Turn
[image]local://upfiles/58324/DC99AC744DE945CDBE7837A9D2D592A3.jpg[/image]



redrum68 -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/13/2020 10:23:20 PM)

Oh and quick question, can FBDs only repair 6 rail hexes per turn? I had the MP left to repair at least 7 but the RRC option wasn't available.



Karri -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/13/2020 10:26:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68

Oh and quick question, can FBDs only repair 6 rail hexes per turn? I had the MP left to repair at least 7 but the RRC option wasn't available.


6 is the max in the Baltics and 4 elsewhere.



redrum68 -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/13/2020 10:31:50 PM)

Ah ok. I'm sure that is in the manual somewhere. Though seems like something easy to add to the tooltip or info screen for FBD units.



Telemecus -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/14/2020 10:31:33 AM)

6 is the mx from the railhead in the baltics, 4 elsewhere.

But you can repair up to 7 consecutive hexes of rail if you keep to the above limits.



redrum68 -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/16/2020 3:53:58 PM)

Turn 5

The main focus is finishing off all the pocketed armor and motorized divisions then driving northeast towards Novgorod and Leningrad. The Finns should be easily able to press forward as most of the Soviets retreated.

Turn Objectives
1. Clear pocketed Soviet divisions
2. Capture and hold Novgorod
3. Drive as far northeast towards Leningrad as possible
4. Capture Tallinn
5. Finns - pocket any remaining Soviet units and drive south towards Leningrad

Here is the start of the turn along the 2 fronts:
[image]local://upfiles/58324/275F6BB4DAB448D8894CCCCDBFCAEC16.jpg[/image]



redrum68 -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/16/2020 4:01:39 PM)

Turn 5 Summary

Tips
- FBDs can only repair up to 6 hexes away from the rail head in Baltic and 4 hexes outside of that (I ran into the 6 maximum this turn). FBDs can also only repair 7 times per turn within those hex restrictions.

Finns
The rest of the Finnish divisions unlock this turn and easily surge forward. The 2 remaining Soviet infantry divisions are pocketed.

Germans
The infantry clear the pocketed Soviet units. A high morale infantry division is able to capture Novgorod while the rest of the Infantry and Panzer Corps drive towards Leningrad with a few minor battles. The 26th Infantry Corps captures Tallinn and then heads east towards Leningrad.

End of Turn
[image]local://upfiles/58324/E7C9153706834D5194512CBF737E921C.jpg[/image]



Telemecus -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/16/2020 4:43:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68
Tips
- FBDs can only repair 6 rails per turn in Baltic and 4 rails per turn outside of that (I ran into the 6 maximum this turn)


Just to be accurate they can repair up to 7, they just cannot repair more than 6 hexes from the railhead at the start of the turn (or 4 outside Baltic zone)

In a game against a person the only difficult thing the Finns have to do in summer 41 is get past the Janisjarvi river line. If the Soviet side fortifies there the Finns do not have the guns to easily get passed it.



redrum68 -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/16/2020 8:01:22 PM)

@Telemecus - Sorry, I edited my post to clarify that its hexes from the rail head. Also just out of curiosity, is 7 repairs a hard limit or is that based on how much MP it takes to move and repair?



Sammy5IsAlive -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/16/2020 10:14:25 PM)

That Panzer HQ on its own looks vulnerable if there is a healthy cavalry unit hidden in a stack somewhere close. I think you could have moved it 1 hex east onto the infantry division and it still would be in range of its units (if you didn't already do that after taking the screenshot). Although you seem to have soft factors (the little colourful triangles on the corners of the counters) on everything - are you playing with FOW turned off? No biggie if you are - that's a perfectly legitimate way to learn the game.



redrum68 -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/16/2020 10:20:05 PM)

@Sammy5IsAlive - Good point, it would definitely have been safer to move it 1 hex east. I'm playing with all default settings which appears to have FOW turned off. I think I glanced around to see if there were any nearby cavalry to the north and didn't see any so didn't think anything could reach it.



redrum68 -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/16/2020 11:02:00 PM)

Turn 6

The Soviets mostly back off but do pocket the infantry division in Novgorod but that should easily be opened. There should be some initial battles around the outskirts of Leningrad but mostly just marching infantry forward.

Turn Objectives
1. Pocket remaining Soviet divisions around Lake Peipus
2. Break Novgorod pocket and establish a bridgehead across the river to the east
3. Drive infantry as far northeast towards Leningrad as possible and begin attack around the outskirts
4. Finns - finish off pocketed Soviet units and push towards the no attack line

Here is the start of the turn along the 2 fronts:
[image]local://upfiles/58324/5D18BF8BE76340C493A06D547B45B330.jpg[/image]



redrum68 -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/16/2020 11:11:30 PM)

Turn 6 Summary

Finns
The 2 remaining Soviet infantry divisions surrender and units drive towards the no attack line.

Germans
The remaining divisions around Lake Peipus are easily pocketed and shouldn't be able to break out. The Novgorod pocket is broken and the infantry division is sent east across the river to establish a crossing which the 56th Panzer Corps is moved to Novgorod to take advantage of next turn (should refuel to over 50%). The rest of the divisions are pushed towards Novgorod and encounter some weak resistance.

End of Turn
[image]local://upfiles/58324/2BDD88BC888543A49748A116A1B0A73D.jpg[/image]



Telemecus -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/17/2020 9:31:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68
@Telemecus - Sorry, I edited my post to clarify that its hexes from the rail head. Also just out of curiosity, is 7 repairs a hard limit or is that based on how much MP it takes to move and repair?


Hard limit. Testing can show even when you do have enough MPs/RRV in an FBD and it is range of the railhead you still cannot repair the 8th consecutive hex of a rail line. I suggested putting it in the updated manual but not checked if it is - it certainly is not documented otherwise.



redrum68 -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/17/2020 2:27:31 PM)

quote:

Hard limit. Testing can show even when you do have enough MPs/RRV in an FBD and it is range of the railhead you still cannot repair the 8th consecutive hex of a rail line. I suggested putting it in the updated manual but not checked if it is - it certainly is not documented otherwise.


Interesting. It seems like an unnecessary limit as MPs would restrict it to I think 8 max anyways. The whole max hex distance from railhead also feels kind of gamey like its putting hard limits on how fast the germans can advance/supply rather than more organic system. If the Russians just run away and offer no resistance, I would think the Germans could figure out how to repair a few more hexes away from the railhead.



Telemecus -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/17/2020 6:54:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68
Interesting. It seems like an unnecessary limit as MPs would restrict it to I think 8 max anyways. The whole max hex distance from railhead also feels kind of gamey like its putting hard limits on how fast the germans can advance/supply rather than more organic system. If the Russians just run away and offer no resistance, I would think the Germans could figure out how to repair a few more hexes away from the railhead.


Remember with several FBDs you can double (or more) them up on one line. So if not limit could even be 16, 24 etc. Although you would have the cost of not having rail elsewhere. But if you really want Moscow say it would be a way to guarantee it.

Personally I would get rid of the FBDs as units in the game (betrays the bopardgame heritage) and just specify which rails you want to prioritise and they would appear automatically in the map according to your specifications. No gamey (or otherwise) moves with counters then.



redrum68 -> RE: Road to Leningrad (Germans) Beginner AAR v1.11.03 (redrum68) (3/17/2020 6:59:23 PM)

quote:

Remember with several FBDs you can double (or more) them up on one line. So if not limit could even be 16, 24 etc. Although you would have the cost of not having rail elsewhere. But if you really want Moscow say it would be a way to guarantee it.

Personally I would get rid of the FBDs as units in the game (betrays the bopardgame heritage) and just specify which rails you want to prioritise and they would appear automatically in the map according to your specifications. No gamey (or otherwise) moves with counters then.


Fair point. Agree on getting rid of the FBDs as units. You could even argue to do something like the further from the railhead the repair, the more it costs as that would then promote more even repairs across the front vs focusing on a single line towards Moscow.



redrum68 -> Turn 7 (3/17/2020 7:21:10 PM)

Turn 7

Not much Soviet movement. Should be able to drive units along the east and west of the river to try and trap the Soviet units there. Then time to begin preparing to siege Leningrad!

Turn Objectives
1. Clear remaining Soviet pockets around Lake Peipus
2. Drive northeast to cut off rail access to Leningrad
3. Use 56th Panzer corps and a few infantry divisions to drive northeast along far side of the river to trap Soviet divisions

Here is the start of the turn along the 2 fronts:
[image]local://upfiles/58324/936A43867CDA4626BCF37D4452576AC9.jpg[/image]



redrum68 -> RE: Turn 7 (3/17/2020 7:32:16 PM)

Turn 7 Summary

Germans
The remaining Soviet pockets around Lake Peipus are easily cleared. The bulk of the AGN surges forward to cut off rail access to Leningrad and prepare to siege. The 56th Panzer Corps and an Infantry Corps drive northeast on the far side of the river threatening to pocket the Soviet divisions there if they don't withdraw. Siege of Leningrad should begin next turn and the plan is to strike primarily the southeastern edge first as the units/forts are weaker there. The Germans should be able to cut off the remaining Ladoga ports over the next turn or 2.

Questions
1. Tips on sieging Leningrad?
2. I'm thinking this is a good time to learn SU and/or air mechanics to help siege Leningrad (really haven't used either much so far). Thoughts on which is more important and best way to tackle them?

End of Turn
[image]local://upfiles/58324/69316661AAE746249CC6CCF2FEA07F95.jpg[/image]



eskuche -> RE: Turn 7 (3/17/2020 8:32:52 PM)

Reassign pioneers and heavy artillery to your strongest corps and perhaps individual infantry divisions. Here you can probably go directly for the Pavlovo backdoor. Deliberate Attack with six ID from two hexes. If they’re from different corps they can contribute additional support units but take a minor (3-10% ish if same army, more if not). Once you take the osinovets port supply will be cut off making the other battles easier.



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