RE: Turn 7 (Full Version)

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Telemecus -> RE: Turn 7 (3/18/2020 8:54:13 AM)

I would consider even having a third corps of infantry and expanding the divisions for the battle to 8, 9 or even 12. That is six in the facing two hexes and more on reserve in one or two hexes next to them. Worth also giving them good corps leaders too.



redrum68 -> RE: Turn 7 (3/18/2020 2:42:42 PM)

quote:

I would consider even having a third corps of infantry and expending the divisions for the battle to 8, 9 or even 12. That is six in the facing two hexes and more on reserve in one or two hexes next to them. Worth also giving them good corps leaders too.


Hmm good point. I hadn't considered reserve divisions and need to read on how that works as I haven't used them yet.



redrum68 -> Turn 8 (3/20/2020 2:50:48 PM)

Turn 8

Now that most of the infantry corps have made it up to the front lines near Leningrad and the Volkhov River, they should be able to make some significant progress this turn.

Turn Objectives
1. Pocket the Soviet divisions along the Volkhov River
2. Begin attacking along the southeastern outskirts of Leningrad to set up an assault across the Neva next turn with 2-3 Infantry Corps
3. Begin driving northeast along Lake Ladoga to eventually cut off remaining ports and capture Sviritisa (this is primarily the back up plan in case the Neva can't be crossed)

Here is the start of the turn along the 2 fronts:
[image]local://upfiles/58324/922A8A9359154B7DA6F0B35684AA0A74.jpg[/image]



Telemecus -> RE: Turn 8 (3/20/2020 5:42:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68
2. Begin attacking along the southeastern outskirts of Leningrad to set up an assault across the Neva next turn with 2-3 Infantry Corps


Ideally you will want to cross the Neva by attacking the hex next to Lake Ladoga. So will want to clear the two hexes next to it such as Shlisselburg.



redrum68 -> RE: Turn 8 (3/20/2020 8:15:04 PM)

@Telemecus - Yep, I'm planning to attack the 10 and 11 defense Soviet stacks this turn to set up an attack across the Neva on the 28 defense hex next turn.



redrum68 -> RE: Turn 8 (3/21/2020 4:15:29 AM)

Turn 8 Summary

Germans
Used the 2 panzer corps and a few infantry divisions to pocket the Soviet units along the Volkhov River. The pocket might be broken by the Soviets but should be able to seal it properly next turn if it does. Used the remaining infantry corps to capture the 2 hexes on the Neva and prepare to assault across it next turn. I'd say probably 2 turns away from isolating Leningrad either by capturing Osinovets or the other remaining 3 ports outside of the Leningrad area.

Support Units (SUs) Overview and Tips
So I decided to try to learn to use SUs this turn in anticipation that using them will make capturing Leningrad much easier. The first thing I did was read the updated manual a few times and read this guide: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4767963

1. So the first thing is to get SUs flowing up the HQ chain by ideally setting all HQs except the highest HQ to 0 and the highest HQ to 9 which can be seen in the guide (this makes all but the following SUs flow upwards)
- Engineers (pioneers) and construction SUs have hard coded support levels so ignore the set levels. For example German corps HQs always require 2 pioneers even if you set the support to zero. The only way to stop them being sucked down is to lock them.
- Sometimes you want to leave construction SUs in higher HQs for rail repair so you'd need to lock lower HQs in the first couple of turns if they do not have construction units so that they do not suck them down. When enough construction units go "on-map" in the higher HQs they will no longer be sucked down and you can safely unlock the lower HQs.
2. All SUs assigned down the chain cost 0 AP so the higher that SUs are up the HQ chain the more flexibility you have when assigning them (can use the push or pull method as described in the guide)
3. SUs mostly divide into several different categories:
- Engineers - good against forts and crossing rivers
- Artillery - good against forts and damage/disruption but can have a high ammo cost (appears higher the ammo cost the better they are against forts)
- Mixed AA - good against air and tanks
- AT - good against tanks
- AA - good against air
- Tanks - high CV and strong against non-dense terrain
- Infantry types (MG, bicycle, etc) - overall good and tend to have decent CV
4. Generally it seems best to assign most SUs to corps HQs but you can assign some directly to divisions (only certain types) which ensure they fight but then cost 1 AP to reassign
5. Hasty attacks only get SUs if their HQ hasn't moved and is within 5 hexes
6. Regular attacks can have SUs even for HQs that move
7. Each HQ can only commit a max of 6 SUs, +12 if urban, +3 if defending, +fort level if defending
8. It seems the standard recommended SUs for Infantry Corps HQs is a few artillery, 1 AA/mixed, and 1 engineer
9. SUs can only be committed by immediate HQs not HQs further up the chain
10. SU commitment chance is based on leader initiative, decreases based on number of support units already committed, decreases based on the total number of non-construction support units attached to the headquarters unit, increases if HQ has not moved during the current player-turn. So to maximize odds for important battles, you want to have a leader with high initiative, don't want to have too many SUs attached to a HQ past the max commitment, and want to avoid moving HQs that are already within 5 hexes.

Questions
1. Is there an easy way to see the SU type/details when using the push method? Seeing the names isn't very helpful and clicking on each one is really time consuming.
2. Anything I missed in the SU tips?
3. Any thoughts on Osinovets vs capturing the rest of the ports?

End of Turn
[image]local://upfiles/58324/AC23AB1547CB4081B12DB03C217C59C0.jpg[/image]



Telemecus -> RE: Turn 8 (3/21/2020 10:46:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68
Questions
2. Anything I missed in the SU tips?


Unfortunately though pioneers and construction do not work like that - instead they have their own hard coded support levels. For example German corps HQs always require 2 pioneers even if you set the support to zero. The only way to stop them being sucked down is to lock them.

Construction units you may prefer to leave in higher HQs for rail repair. So you may prefer to lock lower HQs in the first couple of turns if they do not have construction units so that they do not suck them down. When enough construction units go "on-map" in the higher HQs they will no longer be sucked down and you can safely unlock the lower HQs

quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68
Questions
3. Any thoughts on Osinovets vs capturing the rest of the ports?


Old advice in 41 was that Osinovets was the surest way. Sviritsa looks easy a few hexes away but those last few hexes are murder for supply. But if your opponent leaves an easy route there or the new patch is different it is worth being flexible.



redrum68 -> RE: Turn 8 (3/21/2020 6:14:54 PM)

@Telemecus - Ok, I added that guidance into my post. Thanks for pointing that out.

Follow up questions:
1. Do most players leave the highest HQ at 9 and the rest at 0 most of the time? Besides locking lower HQs to avoid construction units pushing down, is there any drawback besides the amount of time to reassign SUs down each turn to that approach? My understanding is SUs "warp" so aren't wasting trucks/supply/fuel by switching between HQs and seems like letting them flow upwards gives maximum flexibility to moving them around.
2. When using the "push" method of assigning SUs, is there an easy way to see the type rather than the name of the SUs like the "pull" method shows?



Telemecus -> RE: Turn 8 (3/21/2020 6:21:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68
2. When using the "push" method of assigning SUs, is there an easy way to see the type rather than the name of the SUs like the "pull" method shows?


AFAIK no. I use a spreadsheet with details like that set up for units, airgroups and leaders. And once set up right find that to be much quicker and easier than scrolling through the commanders report and all the clicks to investigate it there. So I would just look up the name quickly and easily that way, or do the reverse and just filter all the names of a particular class under a certain set of HQs and pick one to then assign down. But I know many grimace at the idea of doing spreadsheets in leisure time!

An alternative to spreadsheets is to use Joelmar's reporting engine which gives a more user friendly result.



redrum68 -> RE: Turn 8 (3/22/2020 3:53:39 PM)

I've added the following tips around SU commitment:
9. SUs can only be committed by immediate HQs not HQs further up the chain
10. SU commitment chance is based on leader initiative, decreases based on number of support units already committed, decreases based on the total number of non-construction support units attached to the headquarters unit, increases if HQ has not moved during the current player-turn. So to maximize odds for important battles, you want to have a leader with high initiative, don't want to have too many SUs attached to a HQ past the max commitment, and want to avoid moving HQs that are already within 5 hexes.



redrum68 -> Turn 9 (3/23/2020 1:49:42 AM)

Turn 9

The focus now is isolating Leningrad as quickly as possible and continue pocketing Soviet units.

Turn Objectives
1. Clear Soviet pocket along the Volkhov River
2. Assault across the Neva then move in 3 infantry divisions
3. Continue driving northeast along Lake Ladoga to cut off remaining ports and capture Sviritisa

Here is the start of the turn along the 2 fronts:
[image]local://upfiles/58324/06F27C7FFF1D478EAE561BC52D936628.jpg[/image]



redrum68 -> RE: Turn 9 (3/23/2020 2:16:47 AM)

Assault Across the Neva

With the 6 infantry divisions positioned to attack from 28th led by Model and 50th led by Lindemann, the last preparations were to set some reserve infantry divisions and attach SUs. Several of the infantry divisions that are right behind are set to reserve in hopes they join the battle. Then a few engineers, AA, and infantry SUs are attached directly to the 6 divisions. Finally, 7 of the heaviest artillery are attached to each of the Infantry Corps HQs in hopes they both commit close to the max of 6 each.

The attack is a success with all enemies routing on a little over 3 to 1 final CV. My guess is the SUs made a significant impact as 18 SUs ended up part of the battle so both HQs committed close to the max artillery. Though no reserve infantry divisions joined.

Here is a snapshot of the battle and the 28th and 50th Infantry Corps:
[image]local://upfiles/58324/B8354B0626784B8198C44055476BDBCE.jpg[/image]



Telemecus -> RE: Turn 9 (3/23/2020 2:31:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68
Assault Across the Neva
With the 6 infantry divisions positioned to attack from 28th led by Model and 50th led by Lindemann, the last preparations were to set some reserve infantry divisions and attach SUs. Several of the infantry divisions that are right behind are set to reserve in hopes they join the battle. Then a few engineers, AA, and infantry SUs are attached directly to the 6 divisions. Finally, 7 of the heaviest artillery are attached to each of the Infantry Corps HQs in hopes they both commit close to the max of 6 each.


Well done and a well prepared assault. My only query is why did you use two corps from different armies. If you had used two from the same army there would have been a smaller battle penalty. Well worth reassigning the good divisions to it and appointing Model there in the first place? And why use reserves from yet another army (9th army). If the reserves had been from the same army or even corps the chances of multiple divisions reserve activating would have been higher-as it is none did.



redrum68 -> RE: Turn 9 (3/23/2020 2:57:28 AM)

Turn 9 Summary

Germans
After the successful assault across the Neva, 3 infantry divisions are moved across the river. Most of the pocket along the Volkhov is cleared. The 2 panzer corps and a few infantry divisions capture 2 of the 3 ports supplying Leningrad and make good progress towards the remaining port, Sviritsa. With forces only 2 hexes away from Sviritsa, it should be able to be captured next turn. The AGC infantry corps that was further south has reached Lake Ilmen to pocket a few Soviet units and should be in good position to pocket the remaining Soviet units east of Novgorod next turn.

Questions
1. Any thoughts on the assault across the Neva? Things I could have done better or why the Germans won?
2. Any tips for capturing Osinovets? I'll be able to potentially attack it twice with the 3 infantry divisions with as many SUs and reserves as possible next turn.

End of Turn
[image]local://upfiles/58324/7B283D5C3972406793094F1D4D73A3CD.jpg[/image]



redrum68 -> RE: Turn 9 (3/23/2020 3:50:09 AM)

@Telemecus - Yeah, good points. It probably would have been worth the AP to assign one of the corps over so they were under the same army to get -6% instead of -16% penalty. I'm not really sure how the reserve odds work so mostly just put whatever infantry divisions happened to be sitting behind them on reserve which were from various armies/corps. I kind of figured the chance of any of them joining was fairly low.



Telemecus -> RE: Turn 9 (3/23/2020 7:12:50 AM)

All of the last times I crossed the Neva from that position were with 8 divisions or so. That is with about two reserves out of six. The most important factor is to leave them to close to max MPs (15 or 16MPs) so move them into position the previous turn. And make sure they are in close HQ. If your two assault corps have 3 divisions then you can add a fourth division to them each and have the others in a sisters corps. With that set up alone you would be very unlucky to not get any reserves activate. You may also get the SUs from yet another corps HQ with more artillery in the battle!



redrum68 -> RE: Turn 9 (3/23/2020 4:37:10 PM)

@Telemecus - Yeah, I'm guessing the odds for same corps and same army for reserves must be much higher, that or I'm just really unlucky. I did have some that were at least same army (I think 1 same corps) in those reserve stacks and most had not moved so had 10+ MP.

One other thing I'm been thinking about is given that the same army, different corps penalty is so low (-6%), is it actually better to use divisions from as many different corps in the same army for important attacks? The reasoning for this would be to maximize SU and reserve activation potential. For this example of assaulting across the Neva, say use 2 divisions each from 3 different corps in the same army so that you can have 2 divisions in each of those corps as reserves and each of the 3 corps have 6+ heavy artillery SUs. To my understanding this would maximize the chance of of activating SUs and reserves for very little penalty (-6%) and potentially you could even go further and say use 4+ different corps in the same army.

It almost seems that SU and reserve activation odds should be proportional to the number of divisions that a corps has in the battle.



joelmar -> RE: Turn 9 (3/23/2020 4:51:59 PM)

15.5.1.1. Reserve Commitment Limitations due to Unit Size
Corps sized combat units are less likely to be committed offensively as they add one to the leader initiative check, Brigades and
Regiments are more likely to be committed as they subtract one from the leader initiative check.

In a current game, I have the hungarian cavalry brigade assigned to Model's corps, I put it on reserve most of the time, and it almost always activate.



Telemecus -> RE: Turn 9 (3/23/2020 5:15:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68
One other thing I'm been thinking about is given that the same army, different corps penalty is so low (-6%), is it actually better to use divisions from as many different corps in the same army for important attacks? The reasoning for this would be to maximize SU and reserve activation potential. For this example of assaulting across the Neva, say use 2 divisions each from 3 different corps in the same army so that you can have 2 divisions in each of those corps as reserves and each of the 3 corps have 6+ heavy artillery SUs. To my understanding this would maximize the chance of of activating SUs and reserves for very little penalty (-6%) and potentially you could even go further and say use 4+ different corps in the same army.


You have hit a very interesting point that is in debate. I should say the conventional wisdom is to reduce the battle penalties for the on-map units as much as possible. I stick to that convention, but sometimes will use a dummy unit from another corps (e.g. security regiment, Italian CCNN brigade) specifically because I do not expect it to have much CV anyway so do not care about the battle penalty but use it as a way to bring in more SUs. But I would have to mention @Crackaces uses it much more extensively and may be able to explain why. The extra artillery although, under normal settings, it brings no extra CV does bring all of the extra disruption - and with no penalty for being from a different corps. So as you mention it could be a good idea after all. The best I could say is you are getting to the frontiers of what most people know about the game so you could very well be right. And perhaps only a lot of testing could bring a definitive answer.



redrum68 -> RE: Turn 9 (3/23/2020 6:03:44 PM)

@Telemecus - Well, I guess that means I'm at least asking the right questions :) One thing that would make the game much better is a more comprehensive after battle report as I don't want to turn the battle level to 7 and sit there for an hour watching it, I just want to read the result with all the useful details (unless there is a way to already do that?).

I'm going to try my theory out some. For example, I plan to attack Osinovets with 3 infantry divisions from 2 different corps (probably should have tried 3) in the same army rather than all from the same corps as ignoring any reserve units joining that will double the amount of heavy artillery that can possibly activate. It is a bit counter intuitive to IMO how it should work but if its effective shows some factors that are probably lacking in the SU commitment formulas.



redrum68 -> RE: Turn 9 (3/24/2020 4:54:49 AM)

Turn 10

Both options to isolate Leningrad seem within reach so I guess its a race!

Turn Objectives
1. Capture Sviritisa
2. Capture Osinovets

Start of Turn
[image]local://upfiles/58324/EF7B01029A1C489E8580B24D22F1872F.jpg[/image]



redrum68 -> RE: Turn 9 (3/24/2020 5:01:40 AM)

Battle of Osinovets

The 3 infantry divisions from the 26th and 50th Corps are loaded up with lots of SUs primarily selecting any with significant CV and heavy artillery and Model is assigned to the 26th Corps. A number of the divisions behind them are placed on reserve but none end up activating (my guess is due to the high movement cost to cross the Neva). Here is the result:

[image]local://upfiles/58324/3C4D7C3F0C7A4103B814C13266E9EE47.jpg[/image]



redrum68 -> RE: Turn 9 (3/24/2020 5:07:49 AM)

Turn 10 Summary

Germans
A few infantry divisions are also successful in capturing Sviritisa and releasing the Finns to hold it. So in the end I guess its a tie. Given my current skill level, I don't think I could have captured either of them much faster even if I had solely focused on one rather than spread forces across both. Maybe a turn earlier. Now the AGN prepares to assault isolated Leningrad!

End of Turn
[image]local://upfiles/58324/9A7681D2F549409CA2BAF85FA3370F67.jpg[/image]



redrum68 -> RE: Turn 9 (3/24/2020 5:10:14 AM)

Turn 11

Should be able to fairly easily capture Leningrad now that its isolated.

Turn Objectives
1. Capture Leningrad
2. Victory!

Start of Turn
[image]local://upfiles/58324/F3934CD15D6B4FE3BB9E3F24A998733C.jpg[/image]



redrum68 -> RE: Turn 9 (3/24/2020 5:13:47 AM)

Battle of Leningrad

Pushkin is first cleared then 6 divisions attack the city of Leningrad from the south and the Soviets surrender the city!
[image]local://upfiles/58324/CD469B81D0BB41B281D97850FB606BFD.jpg[/image]



redrum68 -> RE: Turn 9 (3/24/2020 5:20:15 AM)

Final Thoughts

It was a fairly interesting scenario and felt like I learned a fair deal about a range of topics. I definitely have a better grasp on most of the mechanics now. Probably the last major system that I need to learn is air as well as learning more about the differences on the Soviet side of things. Hopefully, the various tips and examples throughout the AAR are useful to other beginners that decide to take the plunge.

Thoughts on what scenario to play next, which side, and what settings? I've mostly left all default settings so far but interested if most players change certain things.



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