Fuel Consumption (Full Version)

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dr.hal -> Fuel Consumption (4/3/2020 10:40:12 PM)

This will be seen as a pretty basic question, and I did try searching for an answer, but didn't find one. Lets say that you have a Cargo TF running at full power, and it's rated at 4/3, thus moving 4 hexes per phase. Components of that TF are warships that are there as protection/asw/etc. and their individual ship rated speed is 9/4 or 8/4. Will those warships still be consuming fuel at the "Full" rate (as the whole TF is at "Full) or at the "Mission" rate (which is "Full" for all the cargo ships they are with but would be "mission" rate for those ships)? I know, pretty basic, but I was unable to see this question addressed directly (which might mean I can't see very well, as it could have been addressed and I just didn't get it).




RangerJoe -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/3/2020 10:57:25 PM)

I don't know but run them at mission speed. Full speed creates damage.




btd64 -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/3/2020 11:09:24 PM)

It's an endurance question I think. And since the TF moves at the speed of the slowest ship in the TF, then it should depend on what the slow ship is expending. Or something like that[8|]....GP




kbfchicago -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/3/2020 11:26:34 PM)

I've wondered this myself. My unscientific observation is that if TF A has an xAK with max speed 12knts and DD max speed 35, when you run TF A full out the xAK runs at full speed and uses fuel at that maximum rate, the DD runs at the maximum speed of the xAK and uses fuel commensurate to that speed (not at the max DD rate of 35).




btd64 -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/3/2020 11:31:14 PM)

Yes, some info on this is in 6.2.13 of the manual. It gives a hint anyway....GP




Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/3/2020 11:49:58 PM)

I think I asked that same question years ago, and Alfred replied that Yes, escorts will still consume at full speed




dr.hal -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/4/2020 12:04:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: btd64

Yes, some info on this is in 6.2.13 of the manual. It gives a hint anyway....GP

Thanks GP and Kbchicago, actually that's my question. I know some contributors respond to questions they wish were asked rather than the question actually asked, but your posts have hit upon the response. In fact, as GP indicates, the manual (in 6.2.13) states "Since each ship checks the TF move against its OWN (emphasis added) Cruising Speed, ships in the same TF can use up different amounts of endurance in the same move." I think that's pretty clear. The escorting DDs will NOT incur "Full" speed endurance loss. Thus it stands to reason (if this is allowed) that such ships will NOT suffer "Full" speed damage while escorting the xAKs even if those xAKs are at their own "Full" speed. The reason for this is that those ships were NOT at "Full" speed.




dr.hal -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/4/2020 12:07:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

I think I asked that same question years ago, and Alfred replied that Yes, escorts will still consume at full speed

Jorge if you look at my post #7 I think it is clear, unless post manual publication updates counter it, the manual is clear that the DDs would not use high endurance. At least it looks that way to me....




Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/4/2020 12:42:06 AM)

I found it

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3932120&mpage=1&key=cruise�

unless I misunderstood. lol there are a few tests done afterwards that I will read in detail

EDIT: post #15 proves escorts will consume at full rate




Ian R -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/4/2020 1:57:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I don't know but run them at mission speed. Full speed creates damage.


Unless they are running away from trouble... even so, a cargo boat can outrun a sub at mission speed. Or at least go around it.

Which reminds me, apart from agreeing with Ranger Joe that the damage from "full speed" operations provokes an opportunity cost in repair downtime that limits it to an emergency measure, you also need to leave your cargo TFs a fuel cushion for when they deviate around threats. Have you ever seen a long haul cargo TF limping back into San Fransisco with a lot of damage that just shouldn't be there? It went around a few sub threats in big semi circles.




Ian R -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/4/2020 2:32:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

I found it

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3932120&mpage=1&key=cruise�

unless I misunderstood. lol there are a few tests done afterwards that I will read in detail

EDIT: post #15 proves escorts will consume at full rate


Thanks for linking that, but a question:

If you have a TF with a cruise speed of 4 (hexes) for all ships, and a full speed of 8 hexes, and it goes at full speed, and you do what the manual seems to say, the calculation you make is:

(40 x 4) + [(40 + 240) x 4] = 1280 endurance

Also, 1280/160 = 8.

However, that first calculation is clearly incorrect, see below. Also it does seem the per hex burn rate was reduced from 280 to 160.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The "cruise" fuel consumption rate only applies when the entire distance traveled that turn was at cruise speed. If for any reason during that turn "maximum speed" is employed, the full speed fuel consumption rate is employed for all hexes traversed that turn.

Alfred


Do you concur?




Jorge_Stanbury -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/4/2020 3:08:34 AM)

how I read it, based on the tests performed by Justus2, is that it is a simple ~40/hex at cruise speed and ~160/hex full speed endurance for hex traveled and no proportioning; either cruise or full





Ian R -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/4/2020 9:23:10 AM)

I had a look back through the 2016 change log (or more specifically, searched various search terms on the 100plus page pdf) and could see no reference to any post release change. So, either there is one and I missed it... or it was changed to 160 post manual, pre-release. Or ...

Or maybe we are reading the manual wrong, being too literal or whatever. Alfred did not say what the per hex endurance cost of full speed was in absolute terms. Only that you pay it for each hex moved that day, without apportioned [not Alfred's exact term) costings. It is possible that with die rolls and distances and the like randomising factors, that what the manual says is happening, and additionally that means you are paying an average cost of 160 per hex for all hexes in certain conditions, such as were in justus' anecdotal test. Look at this way, if you had cruise speed two, full speed three, and went full speed do you pay 3 x 160, 3 x 280, or 2 x 40 and 1 x 280? The last option is an average of 120 per hex. Throw in some random factors (and Michael might have put some in, as he did with one hex patrols and the like), and it is still muddy.





BBfanboy -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/4/2020 6:15:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

I had a look back through the 2016 change log (or more specifically, searched various search terms on the 100plus page pdf) and could see no reference to any post release change. So, either there is one and I missed it... or it was changed to 160 post manual, pre-release. Or ...

Or maybe we are reading the manual wrong, being too literal or whatever. Alfred did not say what the per hex endurance cost of full speed was in absolute terms. Only that you pay it for each hex moved that day, without apportioned [not Alfred's exact term) costings. It is possible that with die rolls and distances and the like randomising factors, that what the manual says is happening, and additionally that means you are paying an average cost of 160 per hex for all hexes in certain conditions, such as were in justus' anecdotal test. Look at this way, if you had cruise speed two, full speed three, and went full speed do you pay 3 x 160, 3 x 280, or 2 x 40 and 1 x 280? The last option is an average of 120 per hex. Throw in some random factors (and Michael might have put some in, as he did with one hex patrols and the like), and it is still muddy.


The ship screen shows the number of hexes the ship can move at cruise speed and the amount of fuel it has. Some division will tell you how much it normally consumes per hex.




geofflambert -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/4/2020 8:00:39 PM)

It's all relative to the cruise speed of each ship. Slowing a warship down to the speed of a freighter is really inefficient for the warship and a lot of fuel will be wasted. There's no easy math here. How the game handles that I don't know.

How heavy the seas are is a factor too. DDs that have a max speed greater than a BB they are escorting will have difficulty keeping up in heavy seas, even at max speed if the BB is going cruise speed.




BBfanboy -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/4/2020 10:32:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

It's all relative to the cruise speed of each ship. Slowing a warship down to the speed of a freighter is really inefficient for the warship and a lot of fuel will be wasted. There's no easy math here. How the game handles that I don't know.

How heavy the seas are is a factor too. DDs that have a max speed greater than a BB they are escorting will have difficulty keeping up in heavy seas, even at max speed if the BB is going cruise speed.

Alfred clarified this - each ship's fuel consumption is calculated on its own cruise speed and full speed. There is no pro-rating for slowing to the speed of the slowest ship. The calculations to pro-rate everything would be too cumbersome and slow the turn execution.




dr.hal -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/4/2020 10:32:53 PM)

After reading all the above AND the linked posts I think it's clear that for the question I raised, that of DDs and other "fast" ships embedded into a TF of AKs or other cargo ships, if the TF is moving at the FULL speed of the slowest cargo ship which is 14 and the SLOWEST DD or other "fast" ship has a cruise rate of 15 then NONE of the fast ships will be "charged" consumption at the FULL rate (like the AKs) but will indeed be charged the cruise rate (=40 fuel pts per hex). However if any one of the DDs or other "fast" ships cruise speed is less than 14, that particular ship would be charged the FULL speed consumption rate just like the cargo ships in the TF. Please understand that I didn't ask about damage to ships at "FULL" rate (I do know that moving at full causes damage) or anything else. If I've got this wrong please let me know.




BBfanboy -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/4/2020 10:44:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

After reading all the above AND the linked posts I think it's clear that for the question I raised, that of DDs and other "fast" ships embedded into a TF of AKs or other cargo ships, if the TF is moving at the FULL speed of the slowest cargo ship which is 14 and the SLOWEST DD or other "fast" ship has a cruise rate of 15 then NONE of the fast ships will be "charged" consumption at the FULL rate (like the AKs) but will indeed be charged the cruise rate (=40 fuel pts per hex). However if any one of the DDs or other "fast" ships cruise speed is less than 14, that particular ship would be charged the FULL speed consumption rate just like the cargo ships in the TF. Please understand that I didn't ask about damage to ships at "FULL" rate (I do know that moving at full causes damage) or anything else. If I've got this wrong please let me know.

No. If the TF is moving at full speed, each individual ship moves at its own full speed and consumes fuel accordingly. Actual movement can be affected by needing to refuel some ships during the phase.




dr.hal -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/4/2020 10:54:32 PM)

But BB, that flies in the face of what the manual (in 6.2.13) states "Since each ship checks the TF move against its own Cruising Speed, ships in the same TF can use up different amounts of endurance in the same move."




BBfanboy -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/4/2020 11:00:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

But BB, that flies in the face of what the manual (in 6.2.13) states "Since each ship checks the TF move against its own Cruising Speed, ships in the same TF can use up different amounts of endurance in the same move."

I'll see if I can find Alfred's post on the subject. IIRC, he said something about the manual not being entirely correct on this subject.

Found something, but it is from 2011, not the much more recent one that I recall. Here is the 2011 exchange which basically says the fuel consumption at full speed is (40 + 240 =270/40 =) 7 times the normal cruise speed usage per hex.

quote:



ORIGINAL: brian800000


quote:

ORIGINAL: pacificbetta

Thanks, that is what I thought, but ouch, the Tosu PBs have a fuel of 91, that means a range of less than 3 hex? So does that poor fella starts drawing down his endurance of 1700 after hex 3, or does he slow down the entire convoy to "refuel from other ships"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian800000


quote:

ORIGINAL: pacificbetta

Hijack the thread a little :P

Does anyone know how exactly is fule consumption of a ship calculated? The manual said fuel is deducted from endurance, does that mean for each endurance that the ship consume when it moves, it exhaust 1 fuel point?


I think for non carrier groups 1 endurance equals 1 mile at cruise speed. Full speed burns a lot more. Divide the endurance by 40 and you get the range in hexes.




No, I think fuel is just the amount of fuel points held by the ship. So if a PB has an endurance of 1700 and a max fuel point of 91, it can still go 40+ hexes without refueling. I assume fuel points are just burned in proportion to how far you have gone (ie, if you travel that PB 850 miles, you would burn about 45 fuel points).


IMHO, I don't think this quite explains it clearly enough for new players. So here goes an attempt to explain fuel consumption more fully/clearly.

The distance a ship can travel is determined by it's endurance number (see page 105 of the manual). Each hex travelled uses up a certain amount of endurance. At cruise (or lesser) speed, the endurance used up is 40 x number of hexes travelled. Hence at cruise speed a ship which travels 4 hexes reduces its starting endurance by 160 (ie 40 x 4). Travelling at flank speed, the endurance reduction is an additional 240 endurance per hex moved beyond the distance traversed which the cruise speed setting would have achieved.

The fuel points listed on a ship's screen should be read as the amount of fuel, measured in tonnes, in the fuel tanks. When refueling the ship, an equivalent fuel point (or tonne) will be removed from the port fuel stockpile. Hence if a ship has only 1 fuel point left out of its maximum 91, when it refuels it will transfer 90 fuel points (tonnes) from shore to its fuel tanks.

Note that different ship classes can burn fuel at different economy rates steaming at the same rate. Hence different ship endurance totals can result from the same fuel points.

Alfred




dr.hal -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/4/2020 11:05:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

But BB, that flies in the face of what the manual (in 6.2.13) states "Since each ship checks the TF move against its own Cruising Speed, ships in the same TF can use up different amounts of endurance in the same move."

I'll see if I can find Alfred's post on the subject. IIRC, he said something about the manual not being entirely correct on this subject.

Ok thanks. What posts I've seen from Alfred do not seem to directly address what I am asking. But I've not seen them all I'm sure.




Lokasenna -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/6/2020 4:18:47 PM)

Hal, I think your penultimate post is correct:

If the "Full Speed" of a TF is 4 hexes, and you have ships in the TF who have a cruise speed of 4 hexes, then they will only be charged fuel for cruise speed as fuel usage is on a per-ship basis. Since they did not move farther than their cruise speed in the phase, they will burn the lower amount of fuel.

I'm 99% sure of this.




dr.hal -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/6/2020 6:40:14 PM)

Ok thanks Lokasenna for taking the time to reply, Hal




Ian R -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/7/2020 2:28:58 AM)

quote:

Alfred says:
The distance a ship can travel is determined by it's endurance number (see page 105 of the manual). Each hex travelled uses up a certain amount of endurance. At cruise (or lesser) speed, the endurance used up is 40 x number of hexes travelled. Hence at cruise speed a ship which travels 4 hexes reduces its starting endurance by 160 (ie 40 x 4). Travelling at flank speed, the endurance reduction is an additional 240 endurance per hex moved beyond the distance traversed which the cruise speed setting would have achieved.


So, it seems my calculation was actually correct, and in that particular example you spend 160 endurance per each of 8 hexes moved at full speed.

quote:

If you have a TF with a cruise speed of 4 (hexes) for all ships, and a full speed of 8 hexes, and it goes at full speed, and you do what the manual seems to say, the calculation you make is:

(40 x 4) + [(40 + 240) x 4] = 1280 endurance. Also, 1280/160 = 8.


A different scenario:

You have a TF that moves 3 at cruise, and 6 at full speed.

(40 x 3) +[(40 + 240) x 3] = 960, which spread over 6 hexes is also 160 per hex

If you had a TF that could theoretically move 10 at cruise and 20 at full speed, you would calculate

(40 x 10) + [(40 + 240) x 10] = 3200, which divided by 20 is also 160 per hex.

On further reflection, if you formulate an equation where C is cruise speed hexes, F is full speed hexes, and E is endurance consumed per hex, it looks like this:

[40C + 280F]/C+F = E (per hex).

If C = F , then E will always be 160.

[320C]/2C = 160.

The equation will resolve to a per hex figure that does not = 160 if you do not travel at full speed over a distance that is double cruise distance.




Alfred -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/7/2020 4:13:16 AM)

Now what was that Mighty Mouse introduction ... something along the lines of "here he comes, to save the day"[:)]


You won't find much on the AE public record from the devs re internal speed differentials in a TF.  This thread is the best public one:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2439492&mpage=1&key=speed&#2439492

Posts #4 and #10 from JWE are the best you will get.  Extracting the most pertinent comment from JWE is:

"... There is no consumption benefit given to ships with a high cruise speed that are moving much more slowly.  It's one calculation speed applied to all..."

Now keep that observation at the forefront of your thoughts when reading the following comments from me.

In AE, technically ships do not consume fuel.  I'll let that statement sink in.[:)]



AE ships consume endurance, not fuel.  This is why the "endurance" field exists at all for ships.  A ship's endurance is reduced by other factors (listed in s.6.2.13 of the manual).  These factors are not necessarily additional fuel consumption factors IRL.  Significantly those factors apply to all ships in the TF irrespective of whether they undertook that activity eg a ship in a TF which is not directly targeted by an enemy attacking aircraft still loses endurance, or a DD still loses endurance when the embedded CV puts up CAP.

It is a trap easily fallen into (even by manual writers and devs) to loosely use the term "fuel" as being interchangeable with the correct term "endurance".  There is a relationship between the two terms, best encapsulated by JWE in post #4 in the above linked thread when he stated:

"Endurance is a parameter that depends on fuel and a mathematical calculation as to how that fuel/speed may be used to implement an imperative."

However, I'm not going to disclose the "mathematical calculation" beyond what has been publicly disclosed in the manual and on the forum by the devs.  Just remember that it is endurance which is consumed and then converted into fuel.  Plus this endurance consumption is not only limited (as per s.6.2.13 of the manual) to actual hexes traversed by a TF.

Hopefully to clarify the above the following technical observations regarding s.6.2.13 of the manual are provided.

1.  The first sentence should read "Ships consume endurance points whenever they move."  This makes reading the rest of the first paragraph more logical and it can stand as written, although personally I would slightly revise the wording used.

2.  As to the seven bullet points of the second paragraph, the one most likely to mislead is the second bullet.  It should be split into two separate bullet components; the first being to point out that the slowest ship (as measured by hexes) sets the overall TF distance movement, the second component dealing with the intra TF consumption rate as it translates into fuel consumption.  The existing last sentence of the bullet point, would be in its own new bullet component (probably bullet point 8) read better if drafted along the following lines:

"After all the Endurance consumption factors have been applied, each ship checks its own fuel consumption rate and applies it.  Consequently, ships in the same TF can use up different amounts of fuel for travelling the same distance."

Although not essential, the rest of s.6.2.13 could do with some further editing.  An example would be to clarify what is meant by "its own fuel consumption rate" introduced in the above suggested draft.  The fuel consumption rate is the ship class maximum fuel bunkers divided by the ship class maximum hex travel distance at Cruise speed.  Hence a ship class with 1700 maximum fuel points which can travel 420 hexes at Cruise speed, has a fuel consump0tion rate of 4.04.


So, all clear now.  Or do we have to draft in Roger Ramjet to assist Mighty Mouse.  Finding that Proton Pill might be problematic though.[:)]

Alfred




RangerJoe -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/7/2020 8:54:55 AM)

quote:

Just remember that it is endurance which is consumed and then converted into fuel.


Not to be too picky, but I thought that it was fuel that was converted into endurance points. The ships is refueled and the endurance increases.




Alfred -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/7/2020 9:18:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

Just remember that it is endurance which is consumed and then converted into fuel.


Not to be too picky, but I thought that it was fuel that was converted into endurance points. The ships is refueled and the endurance increases.


The thread is about consumption. What I posed is about consumption. Filling her up is a different concept. The difference is akin to the difference in rearming a naval vessel where supply is converted into weapon ammo but in battle it is ammo, not supply which is expended. It is all part of the abstraction employed to take into account that the industrial production system does not produce discrete items of "endurance" or "ammo" but it does produce discrete items of "fuel" and "supply".

It gets back to JWE's point about using mathematical calculations to carry out an imperative.

Alfred







Ian R -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/7/2020 11:37:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The thread is about consumption.
Alfred


So I was right, if E = 320C/2C, E = 160*.

[8D]

*Subject to other E adjustments for avoiding torpedos, avoiding cyclones, whatever.




dr.hal -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/7/2020 3:36:23 PM)

As clear as mud Alfred, good of you to "drop" in and calm the waters. But as a bottom line, it's nice to know that ships CAN consume fuel (and booze or other things) at different rates within the same TF. You are my hero for today (Until Snoopy arrives).




durnedwolf -> RE: Fuel Consumption (4/7/2020 4:22:49 PM)

Alfred - thanks for post #25 (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4790520). It's always fun for me to get a better understand of what's going on under the "hood."

Long live Mighty Mouse!





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