RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) (Full Version)

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demiare -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) (7/19/2020 10:45:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic
Also added Agricultural Crops details report :)


And this is really GREAT addition, thank you! Personally I never ever tried xeno-farms because of lacking knowledge about xeno-plants temperature tolerance. As for me it's to risky to rely on them when their output maybe permanently reduced because of temp.



Leslac -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) (7/19/2020 11:50:39 AM)

Honestly the AI still needs A LOT of work. Currently it seems unable to establish a proper frontline, but breaks up it's units into little islands that are easy to constantly surround and destroy.

I know it's a general problem with all strategy games.

It seems like the AI doesn't know what entrenchment is, constantly moving it's troops willy nilly. One of the most important things, especially early game, is establishing defensive lines and staying in them for the entrenchment bonus. I'd like to see an early game major plant it's units in a line and stay there, while the recon units try to figure out the best place to open a breach. Preferably behind rivers and in easily defensible terrain.

This especially in a pre-war situation. If I move units up to the AI's borders - a lot of them - it seems like there's a diplomacy trigger that starts, giving me warnings about the major believing we want a war, etc. But the ai doesn't counter with actual units of it's own, which would be logical. And they don't defend their lines of supply - which is in part created by the free road system they get, something I believe should be removed asap so you can begin working on an actual working defensive/offensive way of acting for the AI.

As it is, the game's difficulty comes more from the challenges of logistics and getting enough troops early on, than actually fighting wars.

(speaking from an early-middle game perspective, I've yet to play a game to the late-game major conflicts)



Leslac -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta8 (last update 15th july!) (7/19/2020 11:55:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13

Question. Will there be a basic primer on how the new logistics system works when it goes final? I finally broke down and started playing a game with the betas. I don't fully know what is going on because I honestly play without getting too deep into all the numbers behind the log system. I try to use mainly the bottleneck overlay and then after any adjustments the preview points overlay to manage logistics, mainly just by eyeballing those overlays and the supply status of units instead of counting lug nuts on trucks. I've found that the new system seems for me at least to be easier to use with less management than the 1.04 sytem, but it is still complex and requires management. In other words, pretty good. In playing a full game through turn 86 now I've found I'm making more use of building more truck stops and less use of roadblocks to keep things moving, and I have a widespread log network in this game much more complicated than in the two full games I played before trying the beta. In those games I usually had just one operation going at a time. In this game I have one major operation going but four minor operations going at the same time on a Medusa planet fighting alien life forms as well as minor and major powers. In my previous two games I was on a Siwa planet. I'm able to keep all these operations going, though I am having to actively manage to keep supply going to my units. And I enjoy actively managing, but I don't want to go too deep into counting lug nuts. But I still don't fully grasp the changes with the beta supply system and am wondering if someone has written or is going to write a new supply system for dummies tutorial for people like me to are not going to go deep into the numbers and count lug nuts. To the lug nut counters, thanks for all the hard work.


Yeah, the manual should be updated.


Before the system was a "push" only - i.e. supplies start at the point of the truck stop and get pushed a certain distance out. Only way to control it was where you placed roads, supply stations and traffic lights.


The current version has included a "pull" system to all your military forces and structures. So they automatically ask for and get what they need (if the push system is able to send supplies there).


All in all it makes the logistics system a great deal easier and doesn't demand so much micromanaging of traffic lights.



Destragon -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta8 (last update 15th july!) (7/19/2020 2:03:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic
-In order to get the Logistics system more comprehensible I added a rule change. Once a runner from one logistical Assets encounters another logistical Asset it stops there. This is the only sane way to avoid the big majority (almost total) of the problem cases where a runner from a far away Asset would remove Pull Points that would cause a more nearby Asset to not use them. Furthermore it makes the network more comprehensible as there is less runners per hex in large networks now. * (requires new game start with beta9 for not to disrupt older games in progress)

Sounds interesting, but I have a lot of questions. I think this is gonna need a lot of testing.
What counts as "logistical asset" for this? Are truck and rail logistics separate? Will railway logistics be stopped, because they hit a supply base? What if truck logistics hit a railway station? Can railway logistics not path through a railhead anymore?
Can't the player just avoid this new rule by putting little bypass roads around their logistical assets, so that the logistic runners from other stations can just drive around the new station?

Edit:
Okay, I can answer one question right away, truck logistics and rail logistics are apparently separate for these stops. The logistics log will say something like "Truck points end with meeting other truck logistics asset".

Looks like railheads also don't end train logistics, which is nice. But it looks like railheads don't produce any train points anymore? The asset info still says they produce 5 train points, but I don't see the logistics log mention that.



nadia911 -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta8 (last update 15th july!) (7/19/2020 2:30:17 PM)

Can't download, site down



Destragon -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta8 (last update 15th july!) (7/19/2020 8:08:49 PM)

It worked fine for me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic
-Added an Alien Crops details report in the Help Subtab of the Reps Tab detailing its temperature tolerances. *

Speaking of planetary details reports, can you maybe make those auxiliary biosphere information screens where you can see total life biomass and the evolution history accessible during the game, too? As far as I can tell, they can only be read during planet generation and are a bit hidden there.

Great work with these updates in general, by the way.



GodwinW -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) (7/19/2020 10:45:38 PM)

quote:

-In order to get the Logistics system more comprehensible I added a rule change. Once a runner from one logistical Assets encounters another logistical Asset it stops there. This is the only sane way to avoid the big majority (almost total) of the problem cases where a runner from a far away Asset would remove Pull Points that would cause a more nearby Asset to not use them. Furthermore it makes the network more comprehensible as there is less runners per hex in large networks now. * (requires new game start with beta9 for not to disrupt older games in progress)


No! I am very much against that. I play without Pull Points. Having this work like it does is GREAT. It means you get overlap. It's purely beneficial. It's also NOT hard to figure out (not using pull system), and removing it is like a really arbitrary rule (not grounded in the game's reality) that dumbs down the game.

I really wish you hadn't done this and now I really wish you can make it affect only the pull system if it apparently causes some issue there.

Thank you for your consideration.



Destragon -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) (7/19/2020 11:33:06 PM)

The thing is, you can just have your supply road go past your logistics station, like this, instead of having it go straight through it.
Adds 1 to the branching count, but that's probably worth it over losing the logistics runner. Add an "only pull points allowed" traffic sign heading into the city for extra efficiency.
[image]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/504754524079259678/734552939657691136/unknown.png[/image]



demiare -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) (7/20/2020 6:45:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

No! I am very much against that. I play without Pull Points. Having this work like it does is GREAT. It means you get overlap. It's purely beneficial.


And it's making capital supply radius completely insane once you get enough supply deports & sealed road everywhere.

No, rails should be used for long-range support not trucks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon
The thing is, you can just have your supply road go past your logistics station, like this, instead of having it go straight through it.
Adds 1 to the branching count, but that's probably worth it over losing the logistics runner. Add an "only pull points allowed" traffic sign heading into the city for extra efficiency.

To maximize efficiency in many cases you will need to separate rails from road - let's railroad enter this city to avoid branching for train as it's stupid to build railway station in every city and most of them will have railstop only.



demiare -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) (7/20/2020 8:53:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

-In order to get the Logistics system more comprehensible I added a rule change. Once a runner from one logistical Assets encounters another logistical Asset it stops there. This is the only sane way to avoid the big majority (almost total) of the problem cases where a runner from a far away Asset would remove Pull Points that would cause a more nearby Asset to not use them. Furthermore it makes the network more comprehensible as there is less runners per hex in large networks now. *



After some testing there is seems a minor issue with it - you'd killed Supply Bases lvl 2 and 3. Previously I could use them to boost my capital truck station range via placing them in "free" zone of nearby cities (as placing them optimally in a 10-11 hex distance between truck stations is bestow too high administrative strain even for developed level 3-4 cities). Now... They're seems to be completely useless.

My suggestion - either make them administrative strain free or merge lvl2-3 into a single level 1 supply base.

P.S. Also there is a tiny bug - supply base description don't show it output:


[image]local://upfiles/72462/ACC559353404445FB6270DCAA919DD6F.jpg[/image]



Malevolence -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) (7/20/2020 11:40:08 AM)

Supply base levels continue to support supply routes that are not shortest path between truck stations. For example, following junctions prior to truck station.



demiare -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) (7/20/2020 11:56:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

Supply base levels continue to support supply routes that are not shortest path between truck stations. For example, following junctions prior to truck station.


I know how they're used. I just no longer see real use for upgraded (!) level 2-3 supply bases. Basic level 1 is still well-used of course.



Vhalor -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) (7/20/2020 12:32:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

quote:

-In order to get the Logistics system more comprehensible I added a rule change. Once a runner from one logistical Assets encounters another logistical Asset it stops there. This is the only sane way to avoid the big majority (almost total) of the problem cases where a runner from a far away Asset would remove Pull Points that would cause a more nearby Asset to not use them. Furthermore it makes the network more comprehensible as there is less runners per hex in large networks now. * (requires new game start with beta9 for not to disrupt older games in progress)


No! I am very much against that. I play without Pull Points. Having this work like it does is GREAT. It means you get overlap. It's purely beneficial. It's also NOT hard to figure out (not using pull system), and removing it is like a really arbitrary rule (not grounded in the game's reality) that dumbs down the game.

I really wish you hadn't done this and now I really wish you can make it affect only the pull system if it apparently causes some issue there.

Thank you for your consideration.


I have to agree. That change seems rather horrible indeed. Don't like the idea of silly bypasses and nonsensical road structures to bypass other logistical assets. Also sounds like it will make the entire logistical system rather messy and more incomprehensible to be honest.



Malevolence -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) (7/20/2020 1:09:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

Supply base levels continue to support supply routes that are not shortest path between truck stations. For example, following junctions prior to truck station.


I know how they're used. I just no longer see real use for upgraded (!) level 2-3 supply bases. Basic level 1 is still well-used of course.


Then you understand, ostensibly, a Supply Base III should create a perfectly efficient supply route between two Truck Station I's at 20 hexes distant. That has not changed.



[image]local://upfiles/34589/677E35CB354F4233AEF57891A115CC24.jpg[/image]



demiare -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) (7/20/2020 2:00:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

Then you understand, ostensibly, a Supply Base III should create a perfectly efficient supply route between two Truck Station I's at 20 hexes distant. That has not changed.


And generate ~20-30% admin strain for one zone. Previously it may worth it sometimes as same supply base will boost several truck stations LP point (including so precious LP from SHQ). Now such base will boost basically only 2 truck stations, a bit more with tons of planning & suitable placement.

Previously Supply Base III boosted whole branch of logistic system, now only nearby stations.



Malevolence -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) (7/20/2020 2:11:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

And generate ~20-30% admin strain for one zone.


Could you elaborate? How does a supply base 10 hexes from a city create 20-30% admin strain?

quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

Previously Supply Base III boosted whole branch of logistic system, now only nearby stations.


It still does, via branching routes as stated above.



willgamer -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) (7/20/2020 2:39:52 PM)

quote:

Also sounds like it will make the entire logistical system rather messy and more incomprehensible to be honest.


I'm getting on in years so I may be the canary in the coal mine for this... yes, LIS is now totally incomprehensible to me.

I was concerned about the presumed ease of adding a pull system to the original LIS push; those fears have come home to roost. Just look at the increased complexity of the traffic management screen alone!

Good on y'all that are still managing this well as we descend into logistics darkness. Perhaps you will write a guide at primary school level for the rest of us someday.




demiare -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) (7/20/2020 2:41:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence
Could you elaborate? How does a supply base 10 hexes from a city create 20-30% admin strain?


This is my practical experience from one of games. Two lvl2 supply bases at optimal distance (10 or 11 hexs) resulted with ~24% admin strain in capital that was slowly going down overtime. It was in previous beta so maybe now penalty is more adequate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence
It still does, via branching routes as stated above.

Branching routes are a big trap because of branching penalty. As for me I'm highly doubt it worth for any prolonged route.



Destragon -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) (7/20/2020 3:33:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

After some testing there is seems a minor issue with it - you'd killed Supply Bases lvl 2 and 3. Previously I could use them to boost my capital truck station range via placing them in "free" zone of nearby cities (as placing them optimally in a 10-11 hex distance between truck stations is bestow too high administrative strain even for developed level 3-4 cities). Now... They're seems to be completely useless.

My suggestion - either make them administrative strain free or merge lvl2-3 into a single level 1 supply base.

I don't get it. What's stopping you from just put the supply base nearby another city, so that there is no administrative strain?
Just have your road go adjacent to your truck stations, not through them, like I posted a picture of above.



ramnblam -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) (7/20/2020 4:26:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon


quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

After some testing there is seems a minor issue with it - you'd killed Supply Bases lvl 2 and 3. Previously I could use them to boost my capital truck station range via placing them in "free" zone of nearby cities (as placing them optimally in a 10-11 hex distance between truck stations is bestow too high administrative strain even for developed level 3-4 cities). Now... They're seems to be completely useless.

My suggestion - either make them administrative strain free or merge lvl2-3 into a single level 1 supply base.

I don't get it. What's stopping you from just put the supply base nearby another city, so that there is no administrative strain?
Just have your road go adjacent to your truck stations, not through them, like I posted a picture of above.


Bro don't listen to demi, he doesn't even want to feed his people :(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((



demiare -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) (7/20/2020 5:11:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon

I don't get it. What's stopping you from just put the supply base nearby another city, so that there is no administrative strain?
Just have your road go adjacent to your truck stations, not through them, like I posted a picture of above.


Your idea is +1 branching point per each city. Okay if there is one city, questionable if there is two cities, no-way-ever if more.
Your idea is attempt to abuse game and ignore new logistics rule added by Vic. I don't want to avoid it, I want to play with it instead. Is that hard to understand? No offense.
But if I following new rule then high level Supply Bases losing their value to me completely. As I stated - previously I used them in first or second circle of cities around my capital to push capital LP a bit further. Now they are boosting only logistics between two zones, max 3-4 if I will build my road network around it (questionable as it force me to use sub-optimal paths).

P.S. Plus I'm like idea that Truck Stations are efficiently limited to a single zone - it's suit reality well for me (no one using trucks to delivery over 6k km!).

quote:

ORIGINAL: ramnblam
Bro don't listen to demi, he doesn't even want to feed his people :(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

Damned forum engine (can't browse my own posts quickly), but I really don't remember that I even suggested to not feed my own people. I guess there is some misunderstanding.



Malevolence -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) (7/20/2020 6:05:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

Your idea is attempt to abuse game and ignore new logistics rule added by Vic. I don't want to avoid it, I want to play with it instead.


quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

But if I following new rule then high level Supply Bases losing their value to me completely.


These two statements appear to be incongruent.

Supply bases provide all the same benefits, but you don't want to modify your behavior. You want the supply bases to fit your behavior, at the expense of everything else.

The only change to your circumstances, based on your comments, is that the added truck action points do not extend past a truck station.

That issue is not the result of the supply base or the truck station, it's because you aren't properly placing your supply bases. Modify the behavior and it works the way you wish, without "abuse" or "ignoring new logistic rules".

Granted, sometimes a player can't set the location of every city, but also sometimes, "The best is the enemy of the good."

We live with the minor inefficiencies. Certainly overall, players being able to understand, predict, and manage the LP flow is a greater benefit for everyone.

I would also advise to think about the highest tier capabilities of all assets when selecting placement. Don't just consider the moment, but moves ahead.

[image]local://upfiles/34589/7AFAD8DF9A87413F80D1F1788A64BBD1.jpg[/image]



Destragon -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) (7/20/2020 7:00:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare
Your idea is +1 branching point per each city. Okay if there is one city, questionable if there is two cities, no-way-ever if more.

The +1 branch is really not a big deal, when you try to keep your supply road as a single line for the most part anyway. If you have a road going past 5 cities, then that sounds like you're trying to supply half the planet with a single truck station. I would like to see some screenshots of that scenario. I think the logistics points would run out of movement points before the branching penalty would actually start to matter.
Anyway, you can turn off the branching penalty simply by placing a 100% blocker traffic light directed at the city.

quote:

Your idea is attempt to abuse game and ignore new logistics rule added by Vic. I don't want to avoid it, I want to play with it instead. Is that hard to understand? No offense.

I really, really don't think putting a road next to a truck station can in any way be seen as "abuse".
This is as much "abuse" as is trying to get around the branching penalty like you said in the sentence before this one.



Foxador -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) (7/20/2020 7:21:24 PM)

Honestly the game would be better off without logistics in the first place. It's obviously not working that great as you need to keep changing it and it's vastly more complicated than anything else in the game for no purpose than to be complicated.

It's also something only the player has to deal with because it's too complicated for your AI to handle so it gets a free pass and cheats out of needing it. Because the AI doesn't need it and makes no pretense of pretending to need it you always end up taking over enemy cities with lvl 1 truck stations that are privately owned and no rail stations. But once you get the town you need to quickly fix the town into having such things because chances are that it's going to need them to supply the town and your troops that just took it. The way I see it, if it's too complicated for your own AI to handle than it's too complicated to have in place. It just means you're fighting with one hand behind your back while everyone else isn't because they're all cheating.

I can't find myself using most of the units you have in the game because the logistic system can't handle them. I want to use the other units like heavy tanks, monitor tanks with mobile artillery or even medium tanks but I can't. They use so much damn supplies that if I try using a corp of them in a offensive manner my supply network gets ruined under the strain of needing to give every unit 500-1k gas a piece. I could easily afford it but I can't give it to the troops which means I have no point to make them which means I have no point to make most of the items required to make said units.



CzarKasm -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) (7/20/2020 7:53:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Foxador

I can't find myself using most of the units you have in the game because the logistic system can't handle them. I want to use the other units like heavy tanks, monitor tanks with mobile artillery or even medium tanks but I can't. They use so much damn supplies that if I try using a corp of them in a offensive manner my supply network gets ruined under the strain of needing to give every unit 500-1k gas a piece. I could easily afford it but I can't give it to the troops which means I have no point to make them which means I have no point to make most of the items required to make said units.


I have to agree with this sentiment. This is an infantry and light tank game, unless you spend tons of game time building solely logistics infrastructure.

Medium tanks and up slurp fuel like an alcoholic at an open bar.



Smidlee -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) (7/20/2020 9:50:02 PM)

Without Logistics the player will just run away with the game. Malevolence has made a post questioning if it even possible to lose a game.
I think Heavy tanks should be limited. Without fuel cost and logistics once I got heavy tanks why build light or medium tanks?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CzarKasm

I have to agree with this sentiment. This is an infantry and light tank game, unless you spend tons of game time building solely logistics infrastructure.

Medium tanks and up slurp fuel like an alcoholic at an open bar.

Wasn't that true for the Allies on the Western Front in WW2? The mass production of light tanks to the badly out numbers superior German tanks.



demiare -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) (7/20/2020 10:20:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CzarKasm
I have to agree with this sentiment. This is an infantry and light tank game, unless you spend tons of game time building solely logistics infrastructure.


Sigh. Electric engines? Nuclear engines? Fuel efficiency repeatable tech? If you think to be capable to have a large force of heavy tank since day0 it's a not bright idea. Remember WW2 - it was a long road to heavy tanks. Hell, show me any strategy game where is wise to build biggest ships/units since day0? [:D]
Usually lvl2-3 truck station is enough to feed motorized force if you're using traffic signs PLUS keeping your forced adequate to your technologies (max gun & max armor is a big fat trap until veeeery late game or if you're using them only for mostly defensive battles close to major cities with railway).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smidlee
Wasn't that true for the Allies on the Western Front in WW2? The mass production of light tanks to the badly out numbers superior German tanks.


No. Nazis had a HUGE logistic issues when Western Front came into reality and simply can't supply their tanks there, so aside very few local battles they don't resisted much. It's hard to resist without fuel.



CzarKasm -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) (7/20/2020 10:58:53 PM)

Sure, there are techs that eventually show up to help with (or replace) fuel consumption, but it takes eons to get there.

And I wasn't even talking about massive tank armies thundering across the map. An independent medium tank regiment can wreck whatever logistics leg they are pulling from.



Vic -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) (7/21/2020 8:50:56 AM)

Thanks for the feedback everybody.

For the moment I think cutting of the logistics for a truck/rail station when reaching another station is a good one.

The big argument for me is:
1) that when you look at the logs in the traffic sign popup there are much less entries for each hex and it is actually possible to better understand what is going on. all the overlap if you had many logistical assets was creating an incomprehensible (for me) number of overlaps and entries.
2) that when using only the pull systems there will be much less cases where an already depleting logistics stream (due to distance from source) is high-jacking the pull points in a certain direction.

The supply bases will still be useful on long trajectories and especially on the frontline.

I am not rushing this beta however. And will give it some more time for reflection.

best wishes,
Vic



ramnblam -> RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta9 (last update 19th july!) (7/21/2020 9:28:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic



1) that when you look at the logs in the traffic sign popup there are much less entries for each hex and it is actually possible to better understand what is going on. all the overlap if you had many logistical assets was creating an incomprehensible (for me) number of overlaps and entries.





To be honest I never really understood or really tried to decipher the traffic sign log :D I'm really enjoying all the change's you've made to the logistics system. I feel things are more intuitive and controllable.



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