RE: Is France too strong? (Full Version)

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AlvaroSousa -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/14/2020 9:08:12 PM)

Ok so I just played a game out till the fall of France.

#1 I got zero clear turns between the summers (which is unlucky)
#2 I didn't play optimally making several mistakes
#3 I am not the best wargamer
#4 This is vs historical A.I.
#5 I didn't KO Belgium the 1st turn. They held after 3 attacks.

I did build 4 armor, and forgot to build my extra tactical air units too late
I also forgot to build my extra supply trucks that were too late

So I played better than a new player but not as well as a good player.

I took out France the 1st week of August.
A good player playing optimally should be able to kill them mid-July if not earlier with careful planning.



Franciscus -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/14/2020 9:09:47 PM)

In my last game vs AI, France fell in August. But I played "historically", and only invaded Netherlands and Belgium at the same time I attacked France.

The AI defence was very good, IMHO, but if I had taken Netherlands earlier I would have had it easier.



sveint -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/14/2020 9:14:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Ok so I just played a game out till the fall of France.

#1 I got zero clear turns between the summers (which is unlucky)
#2 I didn't play optimally making several mistakes
#3 I am not the best wargamer
#4 This is vs historical A.I.
#5 I didn't KO Belgium the 1st turn. They held after 3 attacks.

I did build 4 armor, and forgot to build my extra tactical air units too late
I also forgot to build my extra supply trucks that were too late

So I played better than a new player but not as well as a good player.

I took out France the 1st week of August.
A good player playing optimally should be able to kill them mid-July if not earlier with careful planning.


I think against the AI everything is fine. But against a competent player taking
France is quite hard at the moment.

If I may repeat my ideas of slightly higher garrison requirements (historical, and the AI does this anyway)
and Paris as an open city (historical, the French absolutely refused to turn Paris into an urban battlezone).



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/14/2020 9:27:00 PM)

I'd like to hear from 2 very good players then who have played enough games together trying various axis strategies.

I build 4 armor + 3 tactical
I buy supply trucks
I use 2 of specialty points on infiltrator and another on engineer when I get 3.



Harrybanana -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/14/2020 10:43:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

I'd like to hear from 2 very good players then who have played enough games together trying various axis strategies.

I build 4 armor + 3 tactical
I buy supply trucks
I use 2 of specialty points on infiltrator and another on engineer when I get 3.


I don't want to hijack the thread, but why do you like the infiltrator specialty Alvaro? My understanding is that it adds a 5% chance of causing a unit to retreat. So if, for example, without using an infiltrator I have a 50% chance of causing a unit to retreat than with the infiltrator I have a 55% chance. So if I attack 20 times with a 55% chance of retreating defenders I will on average succeed in retreating the unit 11 times rather than an average of 10 times without the infiltrator. I personally think there are better specialties; but that is one of the things that makes this a great game, the multitude of choices.



sveint -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/15/2020 12:05:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

I'd like to hear from 2 very good players then who have played enough games together trying various axis strategies.

I build 4 armor + 3 tactical
I buy supply trucks
I use 2 of specialty points on infiltrator and another on engineer when I get 3.


In all my games as the Allies lately the Axis struggles to take France.

I'm more than happy to play test games against anyone who think they can take Paris/France against me.

And I'm not doing anything magical as France. Simply optimizing the defenses.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/15/2020 3:02:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

I'd like to hear from 2 very good players then who have played enough games together trying various axis strategies.

I build 4 armor + 3 tactical
I buy supply trucks
I use 2 of specialty points on infiltrator and another on engineer when I get 3.


I don't want to hijack the thread, but why do you like the infiltrator specialty Alvaro? My understanding is that it adds a 5% chance of causing a unit to retreat. So if, for example, without using an infiltrator I have a 50% chance of causing a unit to retreat than with the infiltrator I have a 55% chance. So if I attack 20 times with a 55% chance of retreating defenders I will on average succeed in retreating the unit 11 times rather than an average of 10 times without the infiltrator. I personally think there are better specialties; but that is one of the things that makes this a great game, the multitude of choices.


Specialties aren't about what is better. It is about what you want to accomplish. I want to push French units.

For example if you were stranded on an island would you rather have 100 pounds of gold or 1 satellite phone?



baloo7777 -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/15/2020 4:38:10 AM)

Aug 16, 1940 vs good Allied pbem player. Axis took Netherlands and Denmark in '39, then got rain or snow until May 20, 1940. Took Belgium in 1 turn. Then got to Somme after several turns and the sacrifice (unwillingly) of 2 Parachute units. several turns ago had an all-out air war effort vs 2 French air bases for a loss of 13 steps to 4 French. I then pushed a spearhead to within 2 hexes of Paris, and what a surprise to run into a 15 factor British Armour Corps. In the Allied turn, he shattered an 8 factor Inf Corps and then attacked the 8 factor Panzer Corps it was screening and shattered it with a half dozen attacks by French Inf and the Br Armour. The screenshot below is at the end of my last turn in Aug 40. I got another clear Aug 30, 1940 turn and got a little closer to Paris, because I don't quit games. I may be new to this game but have been playing since the days of Avalon Hill's Afrika Korps and Third Reich. I have no problem taking out France completely against an AI with the 10% bonus as the historical is too easy. Hindsight allows this but the French in particular should have terrible morale and the British should be limited politically in how much BEF they can send, or the game vs pbem will be like this against a competent opponent. And there's the rub... many games are really 2 separate problems for developers... the game as PvP versus the game against the AI.
What a pain ... file too large... never used to have so many problems uploading...

[image]local://upfiles/31879/9DC1A68A1B82407F8F72D6585264A390.jpg[/image]



Jeff_Ahl -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/15/2020 11:28:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff_Ahl


It is called operation points in this game instead of movement points as in other games, which I really likes because on the battlefield speed is just one factor that determines a units actual operation value.


+1
Reminds me of when I was a humble trooper ( a trooper anyway because I struggled with the humble bit) in the RHQ of a British Army territorial armoured recce reg't in the '80s. We were often put on 30 minutes notice to move out. That was easy enough to do, but then waiting 4+ hours for the next order (anything from 'move to X' to 'stand down') was more difficult. Perhaps we were just being trained to go without sleep or cooked food.


Hehe, yeah the old "Hurry up and wait"-syndrome. One could always do as the lower echelon of german commanders did and attack any way. ;) The german aggressive doctrine made their opponents orders obselete even before they had been delivered to the front commanders in the beginning of the war. Effective as hell.

Not even today any one lives up to their high doctrines standards and implementation of it, even though alot of doctrine theories in the western armies is talking about the importance of mission based tactics/operations. One thing to talk, another thing to actually implement it to full extent or even implementing mission based tactics/operations at all.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/15/2020 2:22:37 PM)

Did you buy an HQ and get a better commander with points? That is what I do. One with high mobility.

You do need to attrition the French some. You get on some position that is 2:1. You ground strike it. Attack 3x, replace the 3 front units with 3 fresh ones attack.

Or the rotating blitz where as you take hexes you advance units in the rear up front to attack more replacing tired units because a contested hex is just 1 opts.

Also I noticed your units don't have infiltrator. That ability is very important in France. You need to move the line. I make some 20 odd attacks per turn. That mathematically averages out to at least +2 hexes for me a turn if not more. Because one successful retreat leads to another.



Harrybanana -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/15/2020 3:23:12 PM)

I haven't played enough yet to be able to give an opinion on whether or not France is too strong; but regardless of whether it is or not Alvaro has also to consider game balancing issues. If the game is currently balanced (I don't know yet if that is true or not either) than if he makes France weaker (by limiting the colonials that can be brought home perhaps) he will have to counter balance by doing something else to either help the Allies or hurt the Axis (getting rid of the Rule that if Greece falls before March 41 Yugoslavia joins the Axis for example). Personally, I think that if the French had had even half decent commanders they could have held out until the end of summer at least.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/15/2020 4:15:02 PM)

Well there is a balance of realism with hindsight and fun. I have played WIF games where France doesn't fall till 1941 and those games just aren't fun. I do think France should fall between late June and late August 1940 depending on skill levels. Of course if you have a completely unbalanced skill level between 2 players you get the extreme.

I would say if you really want to test this play yourself till the fall of France. I did this many times during testing to figure out the right range.

Another alternative is to play the Italian Option campaign. In this case France basically is forced to keep more reserves in the colonies.



budd -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/15/2020 4:17:54 PM)

I don't suppose having different settings for solo/pbem play is feasible. Often wonder why dev's don't try this, must be a practical reason not to.



baloo7777 -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/15/2020 5:52:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Did you buy an HQ and get a better commander with points? That is what I do. One with high mobility.

You do need to attrition the French some. You get on some position that is 2:1. You ground strike it. Attack 3x, replace the 3 front units with 3 fresh ones attack.

Or the rotating blitz where as you take hexes you advance units in the rear up front to attack more replacing tired units because a contested hex is just 1 opts.

Also I noticed your units don't have infiltrator. That ability is very important in France. You need to move the line. I make some 20 odd attacks per turn. That mathematically averages out to at least +2 hexes for me a turn if not more. Because one successful retreat leads to another.

All that you mention was done although not to the extent of 20 attacks per turn (where do you get enough OP's???). I know to make attacks w/inf then change with Inf/Arm just behind them and make more attacks. I bring up Inf from the rear to screen my Panzers before turn ends whenever possible. I have a forward HQ with a Gereal (von Runstedt maybe) that went up from a 7 to an 8 during the campaign. I haven't felt that infiltrating special was as effective as Engineers fir the rivers like the some, and heavy artillery. I also only have gotten 2 specials available so far... as for vagaries of research upgrades I put max in useful ones like Assault, Interceptor, Heavy Armor, and Breakthrough and Close assault and built an armor a mech and one tac one fighter arriving at start of June. Along with an extra Para. I do not make many 2-1's and find 3-1's are to good attacks unless you want attrition so 4-1's it is. Attrition warfare feels too much like WW1 to me anyways, unless you're the Rusky's. I was hampered by no clear weather until May 20th so I had to commit to pushing through Belgium as shifting forces to the Ardennes would be difficult after Belgium fell in one turn that late in summer. In hindsight, I could have tried to move armor and attack in south of maginot line. Its a good game... don't get me wrong... I just think that the Freench are way over powered and too much morale for historical and the German Air units are not powerful enough for '40 or '41 tech vs French Air. The British sending tons of troops and air to France is ahistorical also. They did not get along well with the French. But its a playbalance thing... or why hinder Germans with historical oil rules except as a playbalance if you really want a wide open do anything you want at little historical/political cost type of simulation?



Richard III -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/15/2020 6:59:23 PM)

I`m going to start another series of 3 consecutive AI games tonight ( on 2 PC & a laptop ) and with Alvaro`s advice see what happens. I was unaware of the Elite Infiltrator use and I really consider my little electron guys' real people ( yes, I have read too much of WW I on the Somme Books ) so I didn`t want to batter against the dug in French Ardennes units, which make a capital switch to Metz so nasty time consuming. My personnel goal since Garry`s WIR ( great old DOS game imo ) is to win with the least losses.

I really think WarPlan falls between my favorite styles of games which are JT`s Panzer Campaigns and Grigsby`s War in the East.

Jeff : I try and save points for Von Manstein (sp ? ) who I can usually get in mid July, and notice a marked improvement of the Armor/Mech spearheads where I place him. ( so the leaders are not just Chrome, Great touch !! )

PPS: Thanks for being here for us Alvaro !!

Rich



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/15/2020 7:08:32 PM)

My Pleasure. I like to focus my games on abstract thinking based on mathematical processes with incomplete information (like poker) than formulaic order processes that require efficiency (like know what building to build in what order for maximum output in a 4x game). So it takes longer to balance with the goal being a wider range of results depending on experience.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/15/2020 11:10:48 PM)

I took a further look at the French setup. In keeping with my philosophy of abstract decisions that have positive and negative consequences I realized the French play was very formulaic and absolute in determining what is done in North Africa. You should be removing units. So in the next beta this will be the change.

French units in North Africa are now broken down into divisions in garrison status.

Italy will be able to come in the war if the following happen...

+100 if less than 3 Allied units are in Tunisia
+100 if less than 2 Allied units are in Morocco
+100 if less than 2 Allied units are in Algeria
+100 if less than 2 Allied units are in Syria
+100 if any of the 3 Alpine border hexes are left vacant
+100 if Paris is occupied by Germany

This leaves the option of pulling French units out at a cost of Italian intervention. If the French pull out the Italians enjoy extra production, and the possibility to invade North Africa with a potential of taking Oran and Gibraltar.



Harrybanana -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/15/2020 11:27:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: baloo7777


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Did you buy an HQ and get a better commander with points? That is what I do. One with high mobility.

You do need to attrition the French some. You get on some position that is 2:1. You ground strike it. Attack 3x, replace the 3 front units with 3 fresh ones attack.

Or the rotating blitz where as you take hexes you advance units in the rear up front to attack more replacing tired units because a contested hex is just 1 opts.

Also I noticed your units don't have infiltrator. That ability is very important in France. You need to move the line. I make some 20 odd attacks per turn. That mathematically averages out to at least +2 hexes for me a turn if not more. Because one successful retreat leads to another.

All that you mention was done although not to the extent of 20 attacks per turn (where do you get enough OP's???). I know to make attacks w/inf then change with Inf/Arm just behind them and make more attacks. I bring up Inf from the rear to screen my Panzers before turn ends whenever possible. I have a forward HQ with a Gereal (von Runstedt maybe) that went up from a 7 to an 8 during the campaign. I haven't felt that infiltrating special was as effective as Engineers fir the rivers like the some, and heavy artillery. I also only have gotten 2 specials available so far... as for vagaries of research upgrades I put max in useful ones like Assault, Interceptor, Heavy Armor, and Breakthrough and Close assault and built an armor a mech and one tac one fighter arriving at start of June. Along with an extra Para. I do not make many 2-1's and find 3-1's are to good attacks unless you want attrition so 4-1's it is. Attrition warfare feels too much like WW1 to me anyways, unless you're the Rusky's. I was hampered by no clear weather until May 20th so I had to commit to pushing through Belgium as shifting forces to the Ardennes would be difficult after Belgium fell in one turn that late in summer. In hindsight, I could have tried to move armor and attack in south of maginot line. Its a good game... don't get me wrong... I just think that the Freench are way over powered and too much morale for historical and the German Air units are not powerful enough for '40 or '41 tech vs French Air. The British sending tons of troops and air to France is ahistorical also. They did not get along well with the French. But its a playbalance thing... or why hinder Germans with historical oil rules except as a playbalance if you really want a wide open do anything you want at little historical/political cost type of simulation?


I am baloo's opponent in the above game. baloo I think you are perhaps giving up too quickly on this game. You got really unlucky with not getting a single clear turn until the 2nd May turn of 1940. By my math there is only a 7% chance of that. You now know how to have 4 armour, a mechanized, an extra TAC and an extra Paratrooper ready by May 40. I think your tactics were OK; perhaps not the best, but pretty good for a guy who is just getting started at this game. The only thing I would suggest are always making sure you have an open space or two for units to retreat to. In any event, I think you will still conquer France by the end of September. Had you followed the "Build Plan", gotten a single clear turn in March or April to take out Belgium and started your big push in the first turn of May, you would have had Paris by early August. I would really like to see you try at least one more game as the Axis. If it doesn't work out for you than quit.

FYI, I am playing another game as the Allies and the Axis player got two clear turns in March and April. So he got a total of 3 more clear weather turns than you did. I will be lucky to survive until the end of July.



baloo7777 -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/15/2020 11:51:46 PM)

Harrybanana you are an officer and a gentlemen... I have enjoyed learning from seeing your play and will continue as I said to you before, and try to rebuild the Wehrmacht in '41 with a plan to attack Russia in '42 and see what the roll of the dice brings. Consider this a breaking of the ultra code and seeing the Axis Strategic plan. I used to play ATG GD38 pbem (dropbox actually. with 5 or 6 other guys) several years ago and that was one of the best diplomacy/army creation, yet a fairly good simulation of WW2. I am turning 62 this week and am using my bday bucks to get the new Vic game Shadow Empire and test it out... should be a busy summer!
Alvaro, you have created a very good game. I might disagree on a few things, but it is still well worth buying and playing. More than that, I have rarely seen a developer so passionate at answering the players here in the forum... would that all were like you...



Flaviusx -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/16/2020 12:50:03 AM)

The colonial garrison change is good but runs into a potential problem. Allies only start with 1 unit in Morocco, which can be broken down to two during their turn, but if the trigger occurs prior to that, Italy starts the game at war. Same with Algeria. So you need to alter the setup to have the corps broken down into divisions. That aside, I think this change should accelerate the conquest of France by a turn or two which puts us in July for most games and that should be fine.

Never mind, I just saw that you did this and broke down the corps. So it's all good!



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/16/2020 12:50:15 AM)

Thanks.

This is my 1st game I coded and designed. I read a lot on game design concepts and user experience. I even learned some graphics.

My philosophy for games is...
#1 Better play is more important than better graphics
#2 Abstract strategic thinking over procedural strategic thinking
#3 Quality over quantity.
#4 Ease of use

All the players really contributed and the next version of the game in 3-4 years will be better than this one.



ReneTS -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/16/2020 7:18:10 AM)

How does a general with good mobility, be of good use in France? Does it increase the odds of making enemies retreat or give extra OP? I thought it only increased ones own chance of retreating?



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/16/2020 2:53:48 PM)

Combat rating affects casualties
Mobility affects retreats
Tenacity affects intensity and surrender

Different generals for different situations. There would be times you want a low tenacity general when you want to limit losses.



sillyflower -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/23/2020 10:51:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa


Also I noticed your units don't have infiltrator. That ability is very important in France. You need to move the line. I make some 20 odd attacks per turn. That mathematically averages out to at least +2 hexes for me a turn if not more. Because one successful retreat leads to another.


I reckon 2 hexes a turn should get you to Paris sometime in '41 [:D]



LiquidSky -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/24/2020 7:16:21 AM)



After a series of unfortunate events I have returned to the scene. As the guy playing Sveint, who feels that the allies are too strong against Germany...I do have some thoughts on the subject. Better late then never I suppose.

1) The French will fall....they can't hold out. They can't win the war of attrition. So I am not worried about it being a game ending event if they don't fall in the early summer.

2) The allies will throw everything into it's defence. That too is okay...they should do what they can to win. I even expect them too. Last guy I played did the same thing as Sveint...and I did the same thing going through the Maginot. Difference is, the last guy had single divisions guarding the fortress, and put the entire French infantry on garrison, so when I did hit the maginot, he could only react with English..and not enough of them to prevent me from killing them.

Sveint wisely took all the French in the Maginot out of garrison, and seemed to react with the French well leading me to believe they also were not in garrison.

3) There is no reason for the British to be anywhere on the map except France and England. Egypt will hold as long as France holds...so no danger. They know with absolute certrainty that the Italians won't attack, so why have the WDF there? Or the Desert Air Force? Now Sveint hasn't done that, I see 5 land and a plane there, although one just showed up. The French are similar..the war is not in Africa..so every unit that can get out will go fight in France. At the moment, a single counter is in Algiers.

But what can the Germans do against this? Going through the maginot is one.....it can catch them off guard, make the front bigger which forces the English to man the line.
They can attack the low countries on the 2nd turn. Have the game win or lose in the first few turns so you know if the game is worth playing or not...I decided not to do this...sadly the weather would have been perfect for it. I had almost all cold weather. Funny...the only time the weather went bad was after I went after the low countries in that second May turn.

They could invade England while fighting in France. This is a high risk operation, but I did consider it. Even if I lose the units, it would probably be enough to pull English out of France...the air at least. I almost pulled the trigger one turn when Sveint had a large fleet in London. I could have taken both mine hexes, one by para and one by invasion. That would have trapped his fleet in London with no way for it to come out.

If the Germans follow the historical route, you end up with a large pile fighting a large pile in Belgium. Because of no retreat, there will be shatters on both sides....something I tried to avoid, but is very difficult to do so. Units will retreat. I usually expect to lose a couple units, usually armour, since it takes the biggest efficiency hit and retreats easier. You will probably win as I am winning..through attrition, but it takes time to burn through all those units. It is rare to kill a unit that can retreat. You just push it around.

So right now it is the August 2 turn. I see 5 British air units, 5 British land units (1 must be an HQ) and 2 Canadian units...the ones I can see are all full corps. The air makes us about equal...but even with the maginot units cut off...he can still man his front because of the british. Without them, I'd be either taking Paris this turn or spreading out and killing everything for conquest.

So I think the Italians are the key to all this.....you can tie their entry to all sorts of events...if the Germans attack any of the BeNeLux countries before May....negative Italian entry. If the allies evacuate any units from their starting positions in the Med...positive Italian entry. That sort of thing. You could make a game out of it...Germany decides to take Netherlands early.....either the French respond by removing units from Africa..or the British add WDF to BEF....and so on.

Because even though I applaud and accept most of the British army in France...it does limit my options on what I can do. Which in the end will make the game boring.



Flaviusx -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/24/2020 11:25:42 AM)

LiquidSky, I took a look at your game and imo you made a series of compounding error.

You started too late on the Low Countries. Germany has to clear them out before May of 40. This is the fundamental error you made. Everything else flows from this. Your actual offensive in France imo totally exposed you to counterattacks and shatters for lack of retreat paths. I get wanting to outflank the Maginot line to expand the front, but in the process your leading panzers got gobbled up.

That said, the latest Beta I think will help even players that forego knocking out the low countries early.



sillyflower -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/24/2020 12:19:55 PM)

Thanks Liquidsky. Glad you are back in circulation.

A thoughtful analysis, but sacrificing a para and (presumably) an inf xx just to bottle up part of the Royal Navy doesn't look like value for money to me.



LiquidSky -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/24/2020 12:27:29 PM)


Well..I didnt do it....so hard to tell what might have been. He had 9 fleets in it when I thought of it. Not sure if having it disappear would be useful to the British in the short or long term. But a better question to ask is: Would the loss of the para and inf div be worth the loss of the British airforce in the middle of France and the possible withdrawl of some if not all the British Army?



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Is France too strong? (6/24/2020 4:16:12 PM)

I just had a game where I had no clear weather turns the entire fall to spring. I had to attack the low countries in May. I still took out France by August. I did take 300 more casualties than my mirror game opponent who took out France in July. But that is part of the variance in the game.

And I am no master at my own game either.



sillyflower -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/14/2020 8:53:38 AM)

I will not name my opponent: not for less than £50/75USD anyway[8D]

The date is 26 September 1941


[image]local://upfiles/35790/FF5FE63B044F49299372BE3578CD473F.jpg[/image]

The Germans did get a bit further, but since then I have regained territory. Full marks for him not having given up a year ago, and it was me who ended it. My opponent agreed but wants another go when the new patch comes out because he hopes that it will weaken the French a bit.



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