RE: Is France too strong? (Full Version)

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ncc1701e -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/14/2020 10:22:42 AM)

Needless to spend £50, I was the opponent of sillyflower and it is true I am never giving up any game except on common agreement.

I would like to congratulate people like him who are real masters in defense or in attack.

I do hope to read one day, in the War Room section, a 101 guide on:
1. how to conduct an attack
2. how to conduct a defense

My attack of France was obviously bad. [;)]

And, if it were not France, it would surely be Russia... [:D]

Looking forward to the new patch indeed to help me be an interesting opponent.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/14/2020 1:46:52 PM)

You know you can multi attack right? With multiple hexes?



Flaviusx -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/14/2020 1:57:35 PM)

Genuinely not understanding how people are having problems in France. In my latest mirror match, France got steamrolled by the end of June. I got lucky with weather as the Axis, which helped some, but less than you'd think (since the new construction panzers don't arrive in full before May anyways.) Magic Missile got bad weather but crushed France quickly nonetheless.

We both stripped Africa to the bone as the French. Didn't make a difference. Neither of us opted for a large BEF, but imo that's just asking for a minor delay at the cost of heavy British losses leading to a possible Sea Lion and/or problems in the Med.

If you build up to 6 panzers and add at least 2 more dive bombers and one more fighter you will crush the allies in France. That is my standard build order and Magic Missile did something fairly similar.

The paras can help in France, btw. And both Magic Missile and I did nearly identical air drops near Paris.

With the newest patch locking down two corps equivalents in North Africa, this gets even easier, but even without that, France is a gimme. I think people are not watching their retreat paths carefully. It gets crowded in France, and the German has to be very careful to leave retreat routes for his leading units so they don't shatter.



ncc1701e -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/14/2020 2:05:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I think people are not watching their retreat paths carefully. It gets crowded in France, and the German has to be very careful to leave retreat routes for his leading units so they don't shatter.



Yes, that is part of my problem. My panzer corps are massacred by Allies counter attacks. What is the rule here?

Also, when I have to face a line of infantry with two "dig in" factors, I have difficulties to crack it down. I am sure this is because I am not using enough Air power. I have just understood this.



Flaviusx -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/14/2020 2:10:32 PM)

Your very first advancement as the Germans has to be an artillery to deal with dug in units. I like to put together panzer army packages that include one of those and another with infiltrator. Each given panzer army should have those two. That package will crack anything it runs into all the way into 1942 in both the east and west fronts.

I see people screwing around with engineers and imo that is a waste.

Bomb dug in units but save the dive bombers for direct attacks, because they can contribute the most factors in an actual ground combat.



Flaviusx -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/14/2020 2:18:40 PM)

Don't be afraid to fall back your panzers and swap them out with fresh infantry corps before your turn is over and after they've conducted attacks. They will probably be rather tired out after digging out the French. Newly conquered hexes ignore zoc movement costs, btw, so it is easy to occupy that ground with the landsers.

A German infantry corps can hold ground just fine, especially if it is fresh. If the Allies want to beat up your infantry let them. They will spend themselves doing so. And once again, keep retreat paths open for all leading units.

Note: if a unit is forced to retreat and there is no open friendly hex within two spaces for it to go to, it will shatter.

This is how green German players are getting manhandled in France. They don't have somewhere to fall back to. This indeed is a cheap way to kill units for anybody, create situations where there is no retreat path available.



MorningDew -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/14/2020 3:16:00 PM)

Agree Falviusx. When I have played against successful German opponents, they attack and on the same turn leave enough operation points to pull back and bring more troops, either to continue the attack or leave strong units adjacent to the Allied units. Allies cannot withstand this too many turns.



ncc1701e -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/14/2020 3:25:30 PM)

Thanks for the great advice Flaviusx. Please, could you look at this situation?
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4854386

And its outcome:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4854387

So, if I understand the retreat path correctly, I should have put an infantry unit in the city of Kharkov and the hexes in the upper left corner of the city of Kharkov before doing my attack. The armored corps would then no longer have a retreat path. Is that correct?

Anything you would have done differently in the whole sequence?

Thanks



Flaviusx -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/14/2020 3:40:12 PM)

Neither the 7 or the 9 point panzers in the lead have retreat paths. I would have attacked the 9 point first and then then 7 point unit. There might be an opportunity to also squash the 14 point directly south of the 7 but you would need to occupy the hex NW of Kharkov to deny it a retreat path. Kharkov itself is under your control and not a valid retreat hex for the German even if unoccupied by your forces. They have to be empty *friendly* hexes.

Parenthetically, this entire game you are playing is full of retreat path kill opportunities from turn one onwards. (On both sides.) Neither of you are being very careful about this and both of you are throwing away units like crazy this way. But that kind of trade ends up favoring the Soviets because he ran out of panzers before you ran out of units.



ncc1701e -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/14/2020 4:56:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Parenthetically, this entire game you are playing is full of retreat path kill opportunities from turn one onwards. (On both sides.) Neither of you are being very careful about this and both of you are throwing away units like crazy this way.


Yes I am learning. I will look at the map more carefully now. Thanks Flaviusx.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/14/2020 5:01:44 PM)

And players said only Elite is worth taking... Pashaa.

I do use Engineers BTW. On a river line they are a 25% bonus to that unit.



Flaviusx -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/14/2020 5:41:23 PM)

The elite advancement is wasted on the Germans due to their very high default experience. It is useful for other countries and particularly the Soviets. Putting elite on early Soviet armor seriously beefs them up.

As for engineer, the bonus is too small for my taste. I'd only take it if it negated the river entirely. Elite, infiltrator, arty, even tank destroyers are all more generally useful.



MagicMissile -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/16/2020 1:07:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

And players said only Elite is worth taking... Pashaa.

I do use Engineers BTW. On a river line they are a 25% bonus to that unit.


Oh I thought it was a bonus of 25% to all units atacking over river not only one. Yea can make a difference sometimes I guess but it really does not seem worth it compared to Elite or heavy art.



MagicMissile -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/16/2020 1:10:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Genuinely not understanding how people are having problems in France. In my latest mirror match, France got steamrolled by the end of June. I got lucky with weather as the Axis, which helped some, but less than you'd think (since the new construction panzers don't arrive in full before May anyways.) Magic Missile got bad weather but crushed France quickly nonetheless.

We both stripped Africa to the bone as the French. Didn't make a difference. Neither of us opted for a large BEF, but imo that's just asking for a minor delay at the cost of heavy British losses leading to a possible Sea Lion and/or problems in the Med.

If you build up to 6 panzers and add at least 2 more dive bombers and one more fighter you will crush the allies in France. That is my standard build order and Magic Missile did something fairly similar.

The paras can help in France, btw. And both Magic Missile and I did nearly identical air drops near Paris.

With the newest patch locking down two corps equivalents in North Africa, this gets even easier, but even without that, France is a gimme. I think people are not watching their retreat paths carefully. It gets crowded in France, and the German has to be very careful to leave retreat routes for his leading units so they don't shatter.


Agree with everything said. 6 arm units 2 ground attack 1 extra fighter some supply trucks and it is not difficult I feel. Just be careful with retreat paths as written [:)].



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/16/2020 3:57:05 PM)

Any specialty that is limited has a higher overall mathematical return.

So engineers only help on River lines. Thus +25% effectively as it halves river penalties
But looking at this post and Flavious mentioning -10% for Artillery for all attacking units I am tending to agree with him on Engineers. I will have to make an adjustment.

You 100% would rather have heavy artillery than engineers especially when you are multihex attacking from 3 hexes across a river. That is a bonus of +30% vs +25% and it's more useful. Maybe I will give it also a defensive bonus like attacks are even worse off as Engineers disable bridges. Have to think about it.



commander H -> Kudos and suggestions to Alvaro (7/16/2020 5:34:56 PM)

First I want to commend the one man band-Alvaro- on an excellent job of combining the best of all wargame strategy worlds into Warplan!!!!
I have read the Developer Diaries and have played one game only and am in the second game but I am a long time gamer (like over 50 years including making some board games).
These suggestions probably have already been written to you so sorry about that but here goes--

1. Have less tedious way of handling the partisans (I built cavalry units-only ones were corps size) and it took sometime every turn to stamp those pesky partisans out.
My thought is having an area of influence for a special say brigade size security unit stationed in a city that we would not have to move around (it would do the searching for the
partisans but we would not have to move it). Say 5 hex radius or so its guys are patrolling).

2. Have player play only one major power and the computer handles the other ones in his alliance--like Italy going off on its own to conquer the Mediterranean area when it wants to.
Or Russia being able to attack Turkey to get into the Mediterranean.

3. Decision cards and much more diplomacy--say starting the game in 1936 like some of the other games out there and the ability to influence other countries, etc.
I think you were not much on alternative history but for me that is the whole fun of it!!!!

4. Create World Warplan--I think you were going to do this.

5. Do what no one has done before----Say start in 1910 with a nice but simple diplomacy and decision cards like noted above and be able to go 1945 all in one game.

So there is it-hopefully the game is selling well and you could eventually be a two man band etc!!!!



sillyflower -> RE: Kudos and suggestions to Alvaro (7/16/2020 5:47:45 PM)

You must be my age - though I used to make miniatures not games. Re your points

1 Partisans are not nearly as annoying as they used to be. They seem about right now
2 That doesn't seem to be much fun. As Russia, you can DOW Turkey if you want, but it seems a bit pointless.
3 There is diplo as you mention, but I don't think anyone uses it for PvP.
4 One day - Alvaro posts his progress on this forum occasionally
5 Also a bit of a slog and I would have thought impossible to make it playable.



ncc1701e -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/16/2020 6:12:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

If you build up to 6 panzers and add at least 2 more dive bombers and one more fighter you will crush the allies in France. That is my standard build order and Magic Missile did something fairly similar


Seriously? All ready for May 10th, 1940? If so, I will have to revise my build order...



Flaviusx -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/16/2020 6:22:46 PM)

Seriously.

Lrn2abuse garrison mode.



ncc1701e -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/16/2020 7:01:54 PM)

Sorry, just to be sure I am not dreaming. When you say 6 panzers, this is 6 armored corps or 4 armored corps plus 2 mechanized corps.



Flaviusx -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/16/2020 7:10:35 PM)

4 and 2. And I also throw a couple more mech before Barbarossa to hit my benchmarks, so end up with 4 mech total. German heavy mech is very beefy and I'm not afraid to bulk up my numbers with it. After Barbarossa starts I generally don't build more of it and switch to armor only, but timing is key and I'd rather have a mech corps on hand in time for France and the Soviet Union than an armor unit two months later.



ncc1701e -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/16/2020 7:20:23 PM)

4 and 2 - all right, I understand better. So I will build less subs for the planes...

Thanks



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/17/2020 12:17:41 PM)

Listen to Flavious, he breaks WarPlan all the time and I have to clean up the mess. But that's a good thing.



sillyflower -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/17/2020 4:29:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa


You 100% would rather have heavy artillery than engineers especially when you are multihex attacking from 3 hexes across a river. That is a bonus of +30% vs +25% and it's more useful.



I thought rules say only 1 HA can contribute to any 1 attack so 3 x 10% still makes 10% :)



sillyflower -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/17/2020 4:40:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Listen to Flavious, he breaks WarPlan all the time and I have to clean up the mess. But that's a good thing.


In a way, yes. However if you weaken France like I think you just did, you unbalance the game in favour of his acolytes who don't need it according to him.

The perennial and unsolvable problem. Tweak the balance for average players gives a more balanced game at that level, but unbalances it for the more skilled, and vice versa.



ncc1701e -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/17/2020 6:40:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Listen to Flavious, he breaks WarPlan all the time and I have to clean up the mess. But that's a good thing.


In a way, yes. However if you weaken France like I think you just did, you unbalance the game in favour of his acolytes who don't need it according to him.

The perennial and unsolvable problem. Tweak the balance for average players gives a more balanced game at that level, but unbalances it for the more skilled, and vice versa.



Yes, but it's not as if France also won the Second World War. When I have learned to master the game instead of finding its bugs, I will certainly come back with a different opinion. The quest for bugs is not the same than the quest to win...

The Soviets were also strengthened for balance... I would say 1-1.



Jeff_Ahl -> RE: Is France too strong? (7/17/2020 7:06:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Any specialty that is limited has a higher overall mathematical return.

So engineers only help on River lines. Thus +25% effectively as it halves river penalties
But looking at this post and Flavious mentioning -10% for Artillery for all attacking units I am tending to agree with him on Engineers. I will have to make an adjustment.

You 100% would rather have heavy artillery than engineers especially when you are multihex attacking from 3 hexes across a river. That is a bonus of +30% vs +25% and it's more useful. Maybe I will give it also a defensive bonus like attacks are even worse off as Engineers disable bridges. Have to think about it.


...and Engineers increased the overall effectivness in the denfense with mines, field fortification, blown up roads and other (and offensive if considering piooners/storm piooners).



ncc1701e -> RE: Is France too strong? (8/2/2020 6:01:55 AM)

Thanks Flaviusx, MagicMissile, sillyflower, guggy and Alvaro for the good lessons learned during French campaign. I think I got it now with the retreat path.

This is my last current PBEM with 1.00.073 patch. Not any corps destroyed during counter attack. I was super careful.

Edit: Please note that I got lucky with the weather and had two cold turns in April 1940 to take Norway and Belgium.

[image]local://upfiles/46661/889942B0070441A28860B4416782911D.jpg[/image]



sveint -> RE: Is France too strong? (8/2/2020 6:47:42 AM)

Nicely done.



sillyflower -> RE: Is France too strong? (8/2/2020 8:29:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

Nicely done.


+1
..............and all before the french army is neutered



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