Please Do Not Change Logistics System (Full Version)

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gatsby -> Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 1:57:16 PM)

I started a new thread because I came here to see if there was a new update and lo and behold I saw this thread about the logistics system being a mess...I immediately fired off a reply because I was flabbergasted and worried that the designer would start to screw around with the logistics because of a few people who can't figure it out.

As I said in my other post: This is the one of the best games I have ever bought and I have been buying these things for a long long time. My 20 year old son and I have been playing non stop since it came out. We have not run into one logistics problem that could not be solved with the logic inherent in the game. Either its a traffic signal, a truck depot upgrade,a supply depot to extend or a myriad of other tweaks. Its wonderful to actually have a logistics tail which can be micromanaged like this.If I have overloaded a front with battalions I had better accommodate it.

I understand that we live in a culture that if we don't like the ending of a show or movie we expect the creators to change it. I joke that maybe the groundlings should have shouted to Shakespeare to change the ending of Hamlet because its too bloody and I don't want Hamlet to die. Its the same idea that if I say something that offends you I should stop saying it ...LOL...Okay Lenny Bruce shut the f*** up?

Once again Please Please do not change the logistics system to accommodate these folk. There are loads of games with simple pull systems. Hold the line be true to your vision.If you think its broken okay I get it but to change it because a few people can't or won't figure it out. I read that entire thread and I didn't see one problem that wasn't solvable with a little time and a little manual. This game takes some work. I like that.Hold the line. LOL



devoncop -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 2:04:31 PM)

100% agree.

Fine post....both in its praise for the game and in its perceptive social commentary [:)]

(Expect a thread to emerge very soon suggesting all players in a MP should be allowed to "win" simultaneously to ensure nobody gets upset by losing) [8|]



OldSarge -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 2:20:28 PM)

I'm on T100 of my 3rd game, which I started when Vic put 1.03b1 out. I have come to love the logistics system and have it working pretty well. At least well enough to span the map. [:D]

The addition of the ability to remove roads has really improved things by allowing the player to unclog the maze of AI drawn roads.



GodwinW -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 2:28:57 PM)

@OP: I agree. Been stating as such in the thread. Maybe this should be in the Suggestions subforum actually?



Frostwave -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 2:54:47 PM)

Hamlet dies ?!?!?!?!
Spoiler alert that ****





devoncop -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 2:59:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Frostwave

Hamlet dies ?!?!?!?!
Spoiler alert that ****





Funny guy [:)]



zgrssd -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 3:00:00 PM)

The Logistics System has a learning curve. And it needs a better explanation. I tried my luck at that later part.

But with those informations, at least 90% of people seem to be able to use it. So I doubt it is the fault of the System.



Jdane -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 3:16:00 PM)

I understand your concerns and have myself been liking to play with the current logistics system, but I'm not preoccupied by VR's announcement. (link for reference)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

[...] I am thinking in the direction of allowing some "pull" systems to work in tandem with the current systems to make it easier if you do not want to micro-manage.[...]


(I underlined the significant bits.)
I'm quite confident VR is thinking of a way to add onto the current system without detracting anything from it for those who already enjoy it as is.
But admittedly, that's just my uniformed opinion and borders the realm of wishing for what one wants.

Finally, I truly respect your right to voice your concerns, and am in no way trying to shut you down. I was just wanting to point out the clues that have me believing VR will stick to his vision and not dumb down his game, while still addressing the wishes of another part of his player base.



VoodooDog -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 3:46:32 PM)

how so?
it was one of the few things i instantly understood. it behaves logically and intuitive.



DeltaV112 -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 3:51:22 PM)

I find it rather insulting that you think that the only reason someone could want the logistics system changed is "because they can't figure it out". I figured the logistics system out quite well, but I hated actually managing it. Adding traffic signs all over conquered territory and checking every turn to make sure that there wasn't a road I was missing or new asset, adjusting the partial signs to optimize throughput down the primary logistical routes, doing the math on how much extra capacity I would need for an offensive and where to put supply bases and truck stations to extend range, it was all perfectly comprehensible and the least fun part of the game.



W8taminute -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 4:00:41 PM)

I also want to add my voice to the "Please do not change the logistics system" group.

Although I don't fully understand it I am beginning to really like it compared to logistics systems in other games. I also like to micromanage this aspect of Shadow Empires and it brings me joy. It is exciting to learn something new and I don't want my experience with Shadow Empires to sour because someone else can't understand and won't try to understand. Not all games are the same.

If any changes are made please allow the option for keeping the original logistics system.



Destragon -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 4:02:04 PM)

The system does have some actual issues. I wrote about that stuff here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4828365
It's pretty much just about how micromanagement heavy the traffic sign system is.
Number 4 in my post there is probably annoying me the most while playing. I keep having to double check my road network to make sure that some civilians didn't suddenly build a mine somewhere, which causes half the logistics, which were heading to some important front, to be diverted and wasted, without giving you any notification or warning beforehand.
If those civilian buildings would AUTOMATICALLY place a traffic sign when they get built, it would be a huge improvement.



Grotius -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 4:04:51 PM)

I agree with the original post: I like the logistics system the way it is. I like micromanaging the traffic signals, and it really doesn't require much micromanagement in the first place.



Nemo84 -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 4:04:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeltaV112

I find it rather insulting that you think that the only reason someone could want the logistics system changed is "because they can't figure it out". I figured the logistics system out quite well, but I hated actually managing it. Adding traffic signs all over conquered territory and checking every turn to make sure that there wasn't a road I was missing or new asset, adjusting the partial signs to optimize throughput down the primary logistical routes, doing the math on how much extra capacity I would need for an offensive and where to put supply bases and truck stations to extend range, it was all perfectly comprehensible and the least fun part of the game.


Fully agreed!

The logistics system is rather simple to figure out compared to some other wargames (which is a good thing). The changes being requested in the logistics thread are merely aimed at removing brainless busywork. Being forced to place a traffic sign on every road leading to a lvl.1 farm is not a deep strategic decision.



76mm -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 4:41:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo84
The changes being requested in the logistics thread are merely aimed at removing brainless busywork. Being forced to place a traffic sign on every road leading to a lvl.1 farm is not a deep strategic decision.

+1



zgrssd -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 4:44:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeltaV112

I find it rather insulting that you think that the only reason someone could want the logistics system changed is "because they can't figure it out". I figured the logistics system out quite well, but I hated actually managing it. Adding traffic signs all over conquered territory and checking every turn to make sure that there wasn't a road I was missing or new asset, adjusting the partial signs to optimize throughput down the primary logistical routes, doing the math on how much extra capacity I would need for an offensive and where to put supply bases and truck stations to extend range, it was all perfectly comprehensible and the least fun part of the game.

If you are still doing that, you do not have not actuall figured it out yet.



tortugapower -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 4:46:21 PM)

I don't have time to read "Logistics is a mess" thread. However, in this thread which is much younger (and easier/quicker to read), I will plop down my two cents:

1. Logistics system as-is is very opaque. Forgive the ego, but I consider myself decent-to-advanced at understanding wargames, and I don't understand it. This is ultimately a design decision, but that means the game -- which has great appeal so far to a widespread group, beyond hardcore wargamers -- likely won't be understood by newcomers, who will get frustrated and stop playing. (I've already seen this happening.)

2. There's probably changes that can be made that automate things and still allow people to override manually (traffic signals comes to mind). This is also a design decision, and also going to be more inclusive to non-hardcore wargamers if done. (I'm not accounting for the dev time for this, which might be unrealistic.)

On design decisions I defer to Vic, who has already made many games I love.



shi4stone -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 4:53:33 PM)

i love how i feel like playing transport tycoon in this game. the only grip on the logistics is when private economy build a farm next to my artery road, and me not aware losing half of the capacity to that... so i have to check the preview every turn, not a big deal, but maybe a notification of newly construct asset outside connected towns could be good.



zgrssd -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 5:09:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tortugapower

I don't have time to read "Logistics is a mess" thread. However, in this thread which is much younger (and easier/quicker to read), I will plop down my two cents:

1. Logistics system as-is is very opaque. Forgive the ego, but I consider myself decent-to-advanced at understanding wargames, and I don't understand it. This is ultimately a design decision, but that means the game -- which has great appeal so far to a widespread group, beyond hardcore wargamers -- likely won't be understood by newcomers, who will get frustrated and stop playing. (I've already seen this happening.)

2. There's probably changes that can be made that automate things and still allow people to override manually (traffic signals comes to mind). This is also a design decision, and also going to be more inclusive to non-hardcore wargamers if done. (I'm not accounting for the dev time for this, which might be unrealistic.)

On design decisions I defer to Vic, who has already made many games I love.

For 1, there is this:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4834257
I fully agree it needs more Documentation/expalantion.

For 2. I particulary would like a "dead end" detection. Something that can tell the difference between a road leading to another Logistics asset or city, vs well...a dead end that only has like 1-2 assets and a enemy border with no troops at the end.

But from practice, this might actually make it harder. "Nothing is quite as dumb, as code that tries to be smart" is soemthing I like to say.



border10 -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 5:09:37 PM)

I like the system as is. A couple of days ago I wouldn't have said that. Experimentation and this forum did the trick. Once I understood the system, I realized my road network was half my problem. Now I keep separate branches separate. I don't connect them. Strange things happen when I do. And so now I get a sense of satisfaction as I expand on a solid foundation, continually branching out, adding stations and supply bases as needed. It's fun because I know what will happen and can plan.
My one gripe is the 'clear all signs' button. A confirmation button, or just move it, would help.
Looking back on all this, I think what would really help more than anything is to devote a chapter on logistics. I can read what's in the manual and understand it...now, with 20/20. But back then? It would have been nice to have spent less time figuring this out. Maybe explain several different scenarios, each one more complex than the last.



Falke -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 5:17:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon

If those civilian buildings would AUTOMATICALLY place a traffic sign when they get built, it would be a huge improvement.


+1
This would remove a lot of the complaints



btonasse -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 5:29:10 PM)

The problem I think is not the logistics system, which is great, but the terrible way the player gets information and feedback on it. Look at this screenshot and tell me this is easy to understand: imgur com/a/6Jv2Duk

LPs left for carrying at least some more food? Check.
Enough food in SHQ's inventory? Check.
Units within operational range of road? Check.

And yet the units are all out of supply to some extent. It makes no sense that there are still LPs unused when there's still a demand for food and food available to be distributed.

I'm sure there's a very good reason why more food wasn't delivered to those units, but don't tell me the feedback to the player is good. You look at that screen and there's nothing there that tells you why the units didn't get more food.

But sure, blame it on the players being 'oh, so stupid'...



Falke -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 5:41:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: btonasse

Enough food in SHQ's inventory? Check.



Wrong, there was not enough food in the SHQ when it gets sent to the Units.

SHQ > Units is before
Zone > SHQ



tortugapower -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 5:58:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

For 1, there is this:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4834257
I fully agree it needs more Documentation/expalantion.

I just read your forum. First, thank you for taking the time to do it! Although I didn't personally glean any additional insight, it's a good starting point, and I hope and expect others will find it helpful.

If people can spare the time, I also recommend DasTactic's three videos on logistics, which start on #11 of his tutorial series:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1otJLaPB-U
and continue in #12 and #13. I personally found 12 and 13 the most useful (#11 is basics).

Nonetheless, if a lengthy forum post and ~1 hour of video tutorials don't provide clarity... I'm not disheartened, but that's more than most gamers are willing to invest.



btonasse -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 6:07:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Falke


quote:

ORIGINAL: btonasse

Enough food in SHQ's inventory? Check.



Wrong, there was not enough food in the SHQ when it gets sent to the Units.

SHQ > Units is before
Zone > SHQ


Like I said: "I'm sure there's a very good reason why more food wasn't delivered to those units". Thank you for both providing the reason and demonstrating my point. Nothing in the interface makes that clear. Quite the contrary, the interface hides information (actually it provides that information, but always 1 turn off, which makes no sense, as it's not very useful to only be informed of stuff after the fact).

Now if I want to know if my units will receive supplies the following turn? Unless absolutely nothing changes in terms of how many supplies troops/zones need, the only way to know for sure is to calculate everything, because if I build one new formation or start building/complete an asset, nothing in the interface will give me a preview of how much stuff I will need to move around to satisfy the demand.



OldSarge -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 6:34:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: btonasse


quote:

ORIGINAL: Falke


quote:

ORIGINAL: btonasse

Enough food in SHQ's inventory? Check.



Wrong, there was not enough food in the SHQ when it gets sent to the Units.

SHQ > Units is before
Zone > SHQ


Like I said: "I'm sure there's a very good reason why more food wasn't delivered to those units". Thank you for both providing the reason and demonstrating my point. Nothing in the interface makes that clear. Quite the contrary, the interface hides information (actually it provides that information, but always 1 turn off, which makes no sense, as it's not very useful to only be informed of stuff after the fact).

Now if I want to know if my units will receive supplies the following turn? Unless absolutely nothing changes in terms of how many supplies troops/zones need, the only way to know for sure is to calculate everything, because if I build one new formation or start building/complete an asset, nothing in the interface will give me a preview of how much stuff I will need to move around to satisfy the demand.


Have you looked at the Assets under the management screen?


[image]local://upfiles/36656/35BE67DB76734A5CBDAA7D8FD73FE1B5.jpg[/image]



GodwinW -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 6:41:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: shi4stone

i love how i feel like playing transport tycoon in this game. the only grip on the logistics is when private economy build a farm next to my artery road, and me not aware losing half of the capacity to that... so i have to check the preview every turn, not a big deal, but maybe a notification of newly construct asset outside connected towns could be good.


Yes indeed: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4830054



willgamer -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 6:49:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon

The system does have some actual issues. I wrote about that stuff here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4828365
It's pretty much just about how micromanagement heavy the traffic sign system is.
Number 4 in my post there is probably annoying me the most while playing. I keep having to double check my road network to make sure that some civilians didn't suddenly build a mine somewhere, which causes half the logistics, which were heading to some important front, to be diverted and wasted, without giving you any notification or warning beforehand.
If those civilian buildings would AUTOMATICALLY place a traffic sign when they get built, it would be a huge improvement.


This is a great list of improvements that does not completely alter the present LIS system.

The basic idea of better a implementation of civilian improvements, e.g. if a civilian improvement can built its own road, then it can also install its own traffic control is logical.

In fact, perhaps there could be a whole subsystem of civilian traffic controls that may mitigate many of the current LIS criticisms.



LordAldrich -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 6:56:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo84
The logistics system is rather simple to figure out compared to some other wargames (which is a good thing). The changes being requested in the logistics thread are merely aimed at removing brainless busywork. Being forced to place a traffic sign on every road leading to a lvl.1 farm is not a deep strategic decision.


+1

I'd also love to see a mechanism for troops to access resources directly from the tiles that produce them (they already do this when using their organic supply units to pull from roads). My front line absolutely should be able to capture and loot that agri-dome that's outside the city. The need to ship absolutely everything back to SHQ and then back out to the front is silly.



jwarrenw13 -> RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System (6/18/2020 7:05:39 PM)

Yes, the log system is brilliant. It is new and can be improved. Vic just needs to make sure it doesn't get broken through improvement. But based on all his past history, I very seriously doubt that will happen.



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