Status of AI (Full Version)

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Angron -> Status of AI (7/4/2020 12:01:06 PM)

So I was wondering if there is a possibility that this would be playable in singleplayer? I believe that AI has been developed? I know that this game has been out for many years and I don't regret my purchase but I would be absolutely overjoyed if there was some way to enjoy this with an ai.

Has that finally been made a reality?

HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY!!!



AxelNL -> RE: Status of AI (7/4/2020 12:08:14 PM)

no - but we are getting close as bugs disappear and Netplay is really becoming playable.



paulderynck -> RE: Status of AI (7/4/2020 5:05:06 PM)

It has always been playable single player (i.e. solitaire) and many here have done so. That way both sides AI are balanced.



Courtenay -> RE: Status of AI (7/5/2020 1:53:10 AM)

Being realistic, AI will not happen this year, is extremely doubtful for the 2021, and I would still bet against it appearing in 2022. Frankly, unless you threw the AlphaZero team at it, and had AlphaZero itself for it to run on, I have my doubts of there ever being a competent AI. I still remember with a shudder the "AI" that comes with Empires in Arms.

On the other hand, playing the game solitaire works just fine. There are only two small pieces of hidden information in the game, and both of those pieces of information (Offensive entry chits and US entry chits) can usually be figured out from the actions of the players, so one does not have to exercise doublethink to play solitaire.



michaelbaldur -> RE: Status of AI (7/5/2020 2:32:12 AM)

my predictions will be NEVER

on less there are changes. steve is spending all his time, fixing bugs, adding bugs and fixing bugs. as he have been doing since the beginning.

I predict that his monthly will be the same.. uploaded new versions, nothing more

he spend the month (year)fixing bugs, and fixing the bugs that does fixes made (and repeat)



AxelNL -> RE: Status of AI (7/5/2020 8:15:31 AM)

Michael, you are too pessimistic. Netplay was unplayable earlier, and it is now. The bugs Steve are fixing are less and less critical ones. He added a optional rule (kamikazes) recently.

He will start the AI, and the result for us all will be a better convoy/production auto-optimization - which I am greatly looking forward too.



Centuur -> RE: Status of AI (7/5/2020 11:21:20 AM)

Michael is right. The progress is too slow. If Steve fixes two bugs, another one pops up. If one looks at production planning, it's still not bug free. Supply has sometimes got it's glitches too. Fixing a bug with TERR and another with TERR pops up. Only one additional optional rule has been added to the game (Kamikazes) and that's a minor one. Look at the huge workload which is still there.

Sure, slowly things are getting better. But the clock is ticking too fast for Steve IMHO.




warspite1 -> RE: Status of AI (7/5/2020 11:29:23 AM)

It's pretty simple (to me at any rate). Unless production and convoys are fixed then an AI is impossible. An AI will always be at a disadvantage compared to a human in a game like this - and playing with less than optimal resources will hamper the AI even more. The only way around it (that I can see) would be to give the AI a certain no. of build points each turn - and these can be increased or decreased according to difficulty level you want to play at. This would make the convoy game somewhat redundant though....



michaelbaldur -> RE: Status of AI (7/5/2020 1:46:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AxelNL

Michael, you are too pessimistic. Netplay was unplayable earlier, and it is now. The bugs Steve are fixing are less and less critical ones. He added a optional rule (kamikazes) recently.

He will start the AI, and the result for us all will be a better convoy/production auto-optimization - which I am greatly looking forward too.


maybe its pessimistic, but look at the Master task list, it have been at a high number (250-400 bugs) since I started. im not see it go down.



AxelNL -> RE: Status of AI (7/5/2020 2:51:07 PM)

When I started Beta testing, I had to stop every solitair game early because of serious corruption bugs. NP was not there yet. Now I play NP regularly every week with a friend, and although we have to reload when there are many naval battles in one impulse, it is otherwise very playable. Only production/convoy is sometimes so tiresome, that for only that reason I hope Steve starts doing the AI - as that part indeed needs to be optimized.



CanInf -> RE: Status of AI (7/5/2020 8:21:09 PM)

I bought the game when it first came out. It was a huge improvement on cardboard just because e were not endlessly reading rules... but there were "issues"



michaelbaldur -> RE: Status of AI (7/5/2020 8:55:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CanInf

I bought the game when it first came out. It was a huge improvement on cardboard just because e were not endlessly reading rules... but there were "issues"


there are still issues. some are minor, others major. but that is my point.

at this rate, if steve is alone at it, he well still be fixing bugs when the sun burn out.

just go back 12, 24 or 36 monthly reports. they all say the same, fixed 50-100 bugs, found 50-100 new



davidc -> RE: Status of AI (7/6/2020 12:43:37 PM)

Michael is correct.

This is not professional game development.
This is one persons retirement project.
That's how you have to look at this game.
Matrix did not sell it this way and shame on them for that, but that's what it is.
Steve had time off for his singing, for sickness, for a European cruise and who knows what else and nothing was done during those times.
When Steve finishes for whatever reason, that is it.

He has done very well all these years but it is still his retirement project.
Nothing else.



rkr1958 -> RE: Status of AI (7/6/2020 3:01:33 PM)

So I've been kicking this idea around in my head how to keep MWiF viable and (re)engage and keep the community engaged for years to come. Possibly?

Whether this is feasible or not it definitely isn't doable unless it's put out for consideration. Also it will only work with signficant community participation.

In could address both the missing optional rules and half map scenarios in a timely fashion. Also include the ability to add new CE rules. Also in a timely fashion. Whether it could address an AI. I'd say quite possibly with the right expertise and participation.

By the way we're on vacation for the next two weeks and I'm having to use my book to post all this.

Back to my thoughts on all this. Any interest in me continuing?



Centuur -> RE: Status of AI (7/6/2020 5:56:59 PM)

Do I read correctly that you could program such things? If so, why don't you ask Steve if you can participate in this?

Or am I mistaken?



rkr1958 -> RE: Status of AI (7/6/2020 6:36:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Do I read correctly that you could program such things? If so, why don't you ask Steve if you can participate in this?

Or am I mistaken?

What I'm kicking around is a community based, python-based open source approach that operates on the game file to produce the desired modifications. There is no action, or desire, to modify the MWiF program. It will be used as developed and packaged by MATRIX as the core of this envisoned community based, open source approach. The most stable, solitary mode of play would be the core. But even with this as the core you could have true multiplayer (3 or more) simulatenous and off-line play. But I think this vision is only possible with true, extensive and distributed community participation.
I



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Status of AI (7/6/2020 8:00:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958


quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Do I read correctly that you could program such things? If so, why don't you ask Steve if you can participate in this?

Or am I mistaken?

What I'm kicking around is a community based, python-based open source approach that operates on the game file to produce the desired modifications. There is no action, or desire, to modify the MWiF program. It will be used as developed and packaged by MATRIX as the core of this envisoned community based, open source approach. The most stable, solitary mode of play would be the core. But even with this as the core you could have true multiplayer (3 or more) simulatenous and off-line play. But I think this vision is only possible with true, extensive and distributed community participation.
I

The current # of lines of code for MWIF exceeds 1.4 million.

Good luck on getting someone interested in making knowledgeable changes to a program that large.



rkr1958 -> RE: Status of AI (7/6/2020 9:42:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958


quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Do I read correctly that you could program such things? If so, why don't you ask Steve if you can participate in this?

Or am I mistaken?

What I'm kicking around is a community based, python-based open source approach that operates on the game file to produce the desired modifications. There is no action, or desire, to modify the MWiF program. It will be used as developed and packaged by MATRIX as the core of this envisoned community based, open source approach. The most stable, solitary mode of play would be the core. But even with this as the core you could have true multiplayer (3 or more) simulatenous and off-line play. But I think this vision is only possible with true, extensive and distributed community participation.
I

The current # of lines of code for MWIF exceeds 1.4 million.

Good luck on getting someone interested in making knowledgeable changes to a program that large.
No intent or interest in moding or working with the game engine itself. What I'm proposing is a collection of apps that operate on the game file with the requirement that the modified file still work with your game engine. Essentially a collection of game file editing tools that achieve various community objectives. Of course this vision is only achievable on a grand level with significant community involvement. On a personal only level I will\am achieving the capability of you beta\debug tools.



CrusssDaddy -> RE: Status of AI (7/6/2020 11:46:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958


quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Do I read correctly that you could program such things? If so, why don't you ask Steve if you can participate in this?

Or am I mistaken?

What I'm kicking around is a community based, python-based open source approach that operates on the game file to produce the desired modifications. There is no action, or desire, to modify the MWiF program. It will be used as developed and packaged by MATRIX as the core of this envisoned community based, open source approach. The most stable, solitary mode of play would be the core. But even with this as the core you could have true multiplayer (3 or more) simulatenous and off-line play. But I think this vision is only possible with true, extensive and distributed community participation.
I

The current # of lines of code for MWIF exceeds 1.4 million.

Good luck on getting someone interested in making knowledgeable changes to a program that large.

Steve is always his most passionate self when the question of intruding upon his retirement hobby is proposed. He instantly sets aside his inertia and dials up his energy level to explain why he -- and only he -- can do this. No one else is capable! He's engineered it specifically this way, of course, using an extinct programming language, hiding details of his work behind a veil of secrecy, consistently deflecting even the gentlest of suggestions of cooperation.

I think probably these periodic requirements to sally forth and defend his turf are what's keeping him alive at this point, so do him a favor and keep them coming. But only periodically, once yearly or so, he only has so much vitality left or desire to tear himself away from his tropical sunsets.



davidachamberlain -> RE: Status of AI (7/7/2020 1:36:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958
What I'm kicking around is a community based, python-based open source approach that operates on the game file to produce the desired modifications. There is no action, or desire, to modify the MWiF program. It will be used as developed and packaged by MATRIX as the core of this envisoned community based, open source approach. The most stable, solitary mode of play would be the core. But even with this as the core you could have true multiplayer (3 or more) simulatenous and off-line play. But I think this vision is only possible with true, extensive and distributed community participation.
I

Though I think it is an interesting concept, that ship has sailed a really long time ago. When you think about the number of functions and features involved in this application, unless you can engage a very large number of committed and capable people to participate and collaborate for quite a long time, you will not be able to re-platform such a product.

This is too large of an undertaking to maintain the kind of commitment required to complete it.

Unless there is some really major sponsorship (major investment) to start all over again with a new team, this is just not feasible.

Regardless of Steve's commitment to getting this all done, I believe that what is there and what will get done on the current path is as far as this is going to go.

Dave



Ian R -> RE: Status of AI (7/7/2020 8:14:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AxelNL

Michael, you are too pessimistic. Netplay was unplayable earlier, and it is now. The bugs Steve are fixing are less and less critical ones. He added a optional rule (kamikazes) recently.

He will start the AI, and the result for us all will be a better convoy/production auto-optimization - which I am greatly looking forward too.


That is excellent news, that is a bit sub-optimal at the moment.



Ian R -> RE: Status of AI (7/7/2020 8:25:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

It's pretty simple (to me at any rate). Unless production and convoys are fixed then an AI is impossible. An AI will always be at a disadvantage compared to a human in a game like this - and playing with less than optimal resources will hamper the AI even more. The only way around it (that I can see) would be to give the AI a certain no. of build points each turn - and these can be increased or decreased according to difficulty level you want to play at. This would make the convoy game somewhat redundant though....


Give it a % increment instead of a set number of points. The CW seemed to miss out on 2-3 PPs a turn (not BPs) because of convoy routing, out of about 20. So a 15% increment or some such.



Courtenay -> RE: Status of AI (7/7/2020 11:10:21 AM)

If the programming language were C or C++, I would be more than happy to help. Unfortunately, all I know about python is that it is associated with the Oracle of Delphi and that it is part of the name of the best British comedy show.



pzgndr -> RE: Status of AI (7/7/2020 11:13:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
The current # of lines of code for MWIF exceeds 1.4 million.
Good luck on getting someone interested in making knowledgeable changes to a program that large.


Empires in Arms. I rest my case. They're coming to take me away, ha ha, they're coming to take me away... [:D]



rkr1958 -> RE: Status of AI (7/7/2020 5:05:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: davidachamberlain


quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958
What I'm kicking around is a community based, python-based open source approach that operates on the game file to produce the desired modifications. There is no action, or desire, to modify the MWiF program. It will be used as developed and packaged by MATRIX as the core of this envisoned community based, open source approach. The most stable, solitary mode of play would be the core. But even with this as the core you could have true multiplayer (3 or more) simulatenous and off-line play. But I think this vision is only possible with true, extensive and distributed community participation.
I

Though I think it is an interesting concept, that ship has sailed a really long time ago. When you think about the number of functions and features involved in this application, unless you can engage a very large number of committed and capable people to participate and collaborate for quite a long time, you will not be able to re-platform such a product.

This is too large of an undertaking to maintain the kind of commitment required to complete it.

Unless there is some really major sponsorship (major investment) to start all over again with a new team, this is just not feasible.

Regardless of Steve's commitment to getting this all done, I believe that what is there and what will get done on the current path is as far as this is going to go.

Dave

Again my vision isn't one of re-platforming but a collection of game file editing apps. But in either case I think you're right at this point. It's just a pipe dream. [:(]



brian brian -> RE: Status of AI (7/9/2020 3:47:50 AM)

I think an AI for the Barbarossa scenario will come along and it will be excellent. Players will use it to dial in their own play and then that will increase their skill and interest in play of a full game vs humans.

Then an AI for the Guadalcanal scenario will come along. That one will show only flashes of excellence at first, as no human or AI can really be held accountable for running their fleet into a 1/10 split. But over time the naval AI will also become good. Players will use it to....



davidc -> RE: Status of AI (7/9/2020 4:41:33 AM)

quote:

The current # of lines of code for MWIF exceeds 1.4 million.


If there are any ladies reading the MWIF forum... "In programming size does not matter."

What matters is clarity and effectiveness.



markb50k -> RE: Status of AI (7/12/2020 1:35:24 PM)

Perhaps what rkr1958 mentions is actually a reality. I have been heavily modifying the save game files for years now, at first via a text editor called WinMerge, then via an Excel spreadsheet, then finally embarking on a Windows WPF app written in c#.

I will probably post a separate update thread to discuss the current scenario I'm playing (World War III), but will post a picture of what is possible:

This app (in concert with modified game CSV files) allows me to pretty much run my own WIF-inspired game, where I utilize the actual WIF.exe for things like:
- turn mechanics
- weather rolls
- and the pretty map

But pretty much every thing else is ran through the Windows app, and it simply tells the WIF.exe game what to show via the edited game save file.

It is the most fun I've had modding a game in a long time and I am in complete control of many factors impossible via the original game



[image]local://upfiles/12574/EE2B6903CEC24DB2B208CB911268A703.jpg[/image]



AxelNL -> RE: Status of AI (7/12/2020 8:23:35 PM)

Impressive



Admiral Delabroglio -> RE: Status of AI (7/15/2020 2:47:26 PM)

Hello

CrusssDaddy, I am not trying to start an argument here, but I think the way you stated your opinion regarding Steve's job is not very nice, and I am not the one directly concerned. If it is just due to my poor undestanding of English, I apologize for my statement.

Even without an AI, playing MWiF enables to leave the whole living room free of maps and counters, so with the state it is in, I believe it is already worth it. I wish Matrix had claerly stated that an IA was NOT to be expected during the next decade at least, but I would have bought the game all the same.

As for the lost PP due to convoy management lack of efficiency (or my lack of know how), I sometimes edit the number of saved build points the way Ronnie explained, and that's good enough for me. Maybe as a (temporary) work around, Steve could add a magical "extra BP" button to be clicked during the actual production phase...

Best regards




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