RE: The question to ask about The Italians (Full Version)

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warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (8/31/2020 2:44:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

This is ridiculous. It's obvious that a rail line can handle a vast amount of supplies. More than enough for the action required in Spain. Remember, Spain has a tiny army. That means a tiny amount of combat needed to eliminate them.

Every urban area has marshalling yards where trains can be held while unloaded. Of course such locations would be behind front lines.
warspite1

Why were the Germans exploring the need for supply via sea then? And that was for a Spain friendly scenario remember.




Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (8/31/2020 2:46:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

In other words, they could not handle much cargo. They could also not take much damage, especially if they were overloaded.


That depends upon how many there are. Turkish resistance would be non-existent across the Sea.

quote:

Not true, Hitler wanted to attack the Soviet Union. Even Stalin understood this by his actions.


Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up till after France, or even the BoB.

quote:

You are the one in fantasy land. In Thrace, the Turkish Army had at least one infantry division, a Cavalry division with T-26 tanks and BA-6 armoured cars both of which could destroy any German tank at the time. Besides an armoured brigade, an infantry brigade an other units.


Thrace? That's on the European side of the straits. They're going to be trapped in the pocket.

quote:

By the way, Istanbul is on the Bosporus. Just look at the map, please?


Who said otherwise. The Germans will inject several infantry divisions across the Sea of Marmara and they will swing left to pocket the forces defending Istanbul and the Bosporus.

quote:

But not that many at one time and most of the barges would be larger than that. Much difficult to carry.


They can carry as many as they plan for. Trailers can be special made to whatever size is desired.

quote:

Not to mention what the Turkish Air Force and Navy would be doing to them. Even a sub on the surface, not to mention civilian water craft pressed into service and armed. Much less a Battlecruiser with 28cm guns.


The Luftwaffe will torch any piddling air or sea assets the Turks have in the area on day one.




Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (8/31/2020 2:48:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Poland never surrendered. After the occupation, the highest number of people in the Polish military was 249,000 plus at least one brown bear who was promoted to Sergeant.


Well, their army sure disappeared.


It relocated. As I previously stated, the Polish military had up to 249,000 people and at least one bear.

The Polish Army took Monte Cassino in Italy.

Polish fighter units participated in the Battle of Britain plus individual Polish fighters in RAF squadrons. The Polish Navy was helping to escort convoys.

It didn't relocate as combat units. Individual men escaped and volunteered.




warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (8/31/2020 2:49:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up till after...the BoB.

warspite1

Not helping yourself.

When was the Marcks Plan? When was Adler Tag? You see I'm trying to help you by missing out the first phase of BoB entirely, but you are still talking absolute nonsense even when I try and help you.





TulliusDetritus -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (8/31/2020 2:55:21 PM)

The genuine Tokyo Express used high speed DDs and APDs. One only needs to check the Kriegsmarine's OOB... They are stuck with very slow speed barges. Tons of them, ok. Ergo *no* night action as in the Solomons.

And besides, I can see literally dozens of RN DDs slaughtering these poor little things without escort.

I'm sorry. Wait for Plan Z (ready by 1948) if you want to take ova the world. Dankey shaun?




Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (8/31/2020 2:55:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

I'm surprised some of you assume Spain or Turkey would pull -yes or yes- a guerrilla war. Just because the former did it on the early 1800s.

Different societies, regimes will NOT be delivering the same, that's too mechanical. Want a really clear example? Compare the tsarist toothless, pathetic army circa 1914 with the soviet steamroller circa 1944. Just one mere generation apart and yet... This is what different regimes, epochs may offer.

I'm with Lemay: these two poor and backward states were an easy prey for the mighty (yes) Werhmacht. Especially Spain, devastated after a civil war. + poverty and backwardness. You cannot fight a *modern* war with this.

I think he got his priorities wrong though. You defeat the main foe = everyone else follows. His diversion of forces is just er... too anticlausewitzian :P And yet the guy with the funny moustache got this part right. Well, more or less.


Thank you sir.

But you need to understand: It's essential that they elevate the Spanish and Turks to supermen for their craven purposes.

Never mind that Germany easily rolled everyone they faced between 1939 and 1941.

One point about Spain in the Napoleonic Wars: Austria was a major force in those wars. By the 1930's she was an absolute zilch. It was about 125 years before WWII. A better measure of Spain's chances can be seen from the last war she fought on her own: The Spanish American War. Spain was totally defeated everywhere by a fledgling power and lost her remaining empire.

And let me add that there is still a reasonable possibility of a Vichy-type agreement. I would even say probable, considering Franco's political orientation.

The Turks had just lost their empire as well, and the closest we have to a gauge on their ability in this period is their performance in the Korean War - a disaster.




Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (8/31/2020 3:05:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

When was the Marcks Plan? When was Adler Tag? You see I'm trying to help you by missing out the first phase of BoB entirely, but you are still talking absolute nonsense even when I try and help you.



"In the middle of 1940, following the rising tension between the Soviet Union and Germany over territories in the Balkans, an eventual invasion of the Soviet Union seemed the only solution to Hitler.[66] While no concrete plans had yet been made, Hitler told one of his generals in June that the victories in Western Europe finally freed his hands for a showdown with Bolshevism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

Regardless, the point is that the Germans will have a year to plan the Turkish operation. How could that not be enough time??




Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (8/31/2020 3:07:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

The genuine Tokyo Express used high speed DDs and APDs. One only needs to check the Kriegsmarine's OOB... They are stuck with very slow speed barges. Tons of them, ok. Ergo *no* night action as in the Solomons.

And besides, I can see literally dozens of RN DDs slaughtering these poor little things without escort.

I'm sorry. Wait for Plan Z (ready by 1948) if you want to take ova the world. Dankey shaun?

The issue is whether the British can discount the threat of invasion. How do they know what fast motor boat assets the Germans have?




TulliusDetritus -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (8/31/2020 3:35:26 PM)


quote:


The issue is whether the British can discount the threat of invasion. How do they know what fast motor boat assets the Germans have?


No rational leader would do that. Churchill took this threat very seriously. They were understandably terrified. No army, with the [possibly] mightiest war machine in the XX century across the Channel... A coup de main and somehow *oops* German divisions in Kent...

I've been reading Nimitz' papers and he still mentions (in early 1943!!!) Hawaii might be threatened [X(]




RangerJoe -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (8/31/2020 4:07:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The Tokyo Express sailed into waters far from their air bases so they had little to no fighters for defense.


Correct. And the Americans had plenty of air assets to use against them. But they couldn't because it was night. Aircraft don't intercept anything very well at night. That's the point.


So the Royal Navy could go in at night and wipe out the invasion forces and leave the area before dawn. I am glad that you agree with me.




RangerJoe -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (8/31/2020 4:12:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

When was the Marcks Plan? When was Adler Tag? You see I'm trying to help you by missing out the first phase of BoB entirely, but you are still talking absolute nonsense even when I try and help you.



"In the middle of 1940, following the rising tension between the Soviet Union and Germany over territories in the Balkans, an eventual invasion of the Soviet Union seemed the only solution to Hitler.[66] While no concrete plans had yet been made, Hitler told one of his generals in June that the victories in Western Europe finally freed his hands for a showdown with Bolshevism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

Regardless, the point is that the Germans will have a year to plan the Turkish operation. How could that not be enough time??


One million men in the Turkish Army with 42 infantry divisions, two Cavalry divisions, plus assorted brigades including armour. The Turkish Straits have to be crossed under fire. So they could plan it, they just have to fight it.




RangerJoe -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (8/31/2020 4:13:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

The genuine Tokyo Express used high speed DDs and APDs. One only needs to check the Kriegsmarine's OOB... They are stuck with very slow speed barges. Tons of them, ok. Ergo *no* night action as in the Solomons.

And besides, I can see literally dozens of RN DDs slaughtering these poor little things without escort.

I'm sorry. Wait for Plan Z (ready by 1948) if you want to take ova the world. Dankey shaun?


I agree.




RangerJoe -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (8/31/2020 4:32:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

In other words, they could not handle much cargo. They could also not take much damage, especially if they were overloaded.


That depends upon how many there are. Turkish resistance would be non-existent across the Sea.

quote:

Not true, Hitler wanted to attack the Soviet Union. Even Stalin understood this by his actions.


Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up till after France, or even the BoB.

quote:

You are the one in fantasy land. In Thrace, the Turkish Army had at least one infantry division, a Cavalry division with T-26 tanks and BA-6 armoured cars both of which could destroy any German tank at the time. Besides an armoured brigade, an infantry brigade an other units.


Thrace? That's on the European side of the straits. They're going to be trapped in the pocket.

quote:

By the way, Istanbul is on the Bosporus. Just look at the map, please?


Who said otherwise. The Germans will inject several infantry divisions across the Sea of Marmara and they will swing left to pocket the forces defending Istanbul and the Bosporus.

quote:

But not that many at one time and most of the barges would be larger than that. Much difficult to carry.


They can carry as many as they plan for. Trailers can be special made to whatever size is desired.

quote:

Not to mention what the Turkish Air Force and Navy would be doing to them. Even a sub on the surface, not to mention civilian water craft pressed into service and armed. Much less a Battlecruiser with 28cm guns.


The Luftwaffe will torch any piddling air or sea assets the Turks have in the area on day one.


The Turkish Air Force had 500 aircraft, more later. The Luftwaffe could not destroy the RAF Fighter Command, the Turkish Air Force would last awhile. And where would the Luftwaffe be based initially?

There was one division at Istanbul and five divisions at the other end of the Turkish Straits, The Sea of Marmora would not be undefended.

You state the Turkish units in Thrace would be trapped in the pocket. What pocket? The Germans would have to go through them to get to the Turkish Straits. Look at a map for once.




Aurelian -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (8/31/2020 4:53:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

When was the Marcks Plan? When was Adler Tag? You see I'm trying to help you by missing out the first phase of BoB entirely, but you are still talking absolute nonsense even when I try and help you.



"In the middle of 1940, following the rising tension between the Soviet Union and Germany over territories in the Balkans, an eventual invasion of the Soviet Union seemed the only solution to Hitler.[66] While no concrete plans had yet been made, Hitler told one of his generals in June that the victories in Western Europe finally freed his hands for a showdown with Bolshevism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

Regardless, the point is that the Germans will have a year to plan the Turkish operation. How could that not be enough time??


One million men in the Turkish Army with 42 infantry divisions, two Cavalry divisions, plus assorted brigades including armour. The Turkish Straits have to be crossed under fire. So they could plan it, they just have to fight it.


There was also a plan to take Switzerland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenbaum




warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (8/31/2020 5:38:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

When was the Marcks Plan? When was Adler Tag? You see I'm trying to help you by missing out the first phase of BoB entirely, but you are still talking absolute nonsense even when I try and help you.



"In the middle of 1940, following the rising tension between the Soviet Union and Germany over territories in the Balkans, an eventual invasion of the Soviet Union seemed the only solution to Hitler.[66] While no concrete plans had yet been made, Hitler told one of his generals in June that the victories in Western Europe finally freed his hands for a showdown with Bolshevism."

warspite1

This is a joke right?

You said AND I QUOTE:

quote:

Curtis Lemay

Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up till after....the BoB.


Right, so having got yet ANOTHER fact wrong you try and change the meaning of what you said. Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up. I repeat, according to you Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up. Right. The Genesis of Barbarossa:

3 July 1940 - Halder asks von Greiffenberg to study requirements
21 July 1940 - At a conference Hitler confirmed the objectives
29 July 1940 - Halder gave Marcks the task of planning the invasion of the USSR
5 August 1940 - Marcks draft plan was completed

So, genius, you think Barbarossa was not even dreamed up while the Battle of Britain (10 July-31 October 1940) was going on?

No, the Marcks Plan was not the final plan, but that is not what you said. When, once again you were proven totally wrong, you then try and side step by changing what you meant. Disingenuous, but sadly this is increasingly what you are about.




warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (8/31/2020 6:02:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

And besides, I can see literally dozens of RN DDs slaughtering these poor little things without escort.



The issue is whether the British can discount the threat of invasion. How do they know what fast motor boat assets the Germans have?

warspite1

No. The issue is whether there is any threat of invasion for them to discount. But, as usual, you can provide no detail, not even make a proper attempt at suggesting what the Germans would do.

You don't understand any of this so you just use the term 'demonstrating' and mention using some French barges (what was it you asked? didn't they do that historically? [X(]).

If the Germans wanted to make the British believe there was going to be an invasion then they would need to take action to make the British believe that.

You don't want to admit that, given Goering's nature, he would launch a BoB type operation because you know that the Germans were seriously mauled in doing so and - in this scenario - they would be undertaking it with less of an advantage - and so risk even more loss.

You don't seem to understand anything about the barges situation but presumably even you would realise that the work undertaken on the Rhine barges would be a) uneconomical given that it's only for a deception and b) more importantly, will actually affect the German economy. I don't have figures for the non-German barges but assume they would affect the French and Dutch economies also.

But economic issues and little things like getting your facts right appear increasingly beyond you.






warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (8/31/2020 6:30:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Regardless, the point is that the Germans will have a year to plan the Turkish operation. How could that not be enough time??

warspite1

What was that comment in response to? This is nothing I've raised.




warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (8/31/2020 6:54:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The issue is whether the British can discount the threat of invasion. How do they know what fast motor boat assets the Germans have?

warspite1

I know you are not suggesting a Sea Lion takes place, but can we just clear off this repeated comment about 'fast motor boats' for once and for all.

I believe you said WSC was worried about the Germans using 'fast motor boats' because you saw it in the movie Darkest Hour. Presumably you have a source for this? I'd love to know the context and when Churchill was discussing this.

As far as I know, right at the start of the war he asked the CoS's to have a look into 20,000 Germans crossing and landing at one point along the coast. But if this is what you are referring to then its not really relevant is it? One can only imagine their response.

Only in September did Churchill (and Brooke) start to believe that an invasion may be attempted - and that was on the basis that the Luftwaffe had been hammering away at the RAF for a month solid and there were more than a thousand barges at various points along the Channel (the RAF and RN had attacked these). You see, in this case there was actually something happening to make Churchill believe an invasion was being planned - quite an important difference from what you aren't proposing.




Aurelian -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (8/31/2020 7:27:37 PM)

The only German fast motor boats I'm aware of where what the Allies called E-boats. And with a crew of 20-30, just where would the invading troops be put? Then you have tanks, artillery, trucks...




RangerJoe -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/1/2020 1:38:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Regardless, the point is that the Germans will have a year to plan the Turkish operation. How could that not be enough time??

warspite1

What was that comment in response to? This is nothing I've raised.



Me and my comments.

All this time that Germany is playing around at other places means more T-34s, KV 1/2s, and MiGs available.




RangerJoe -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/1/2020 1:42:33 AM)

By September, the British had the start if not all of the 500,000 Enfield rifles, artillery, and mortars plus the ammunition sent to them from the US. [:D]

There was an armoured brigade in England plus the 1st Canadian Division that was fully equipped. Plus the vehicle and armament factories were building lots of toys. [:D]




warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/1/2020 7:01:50 AM)

The issue for the British after the fall of France was, without wishing to state the obvious, if the home country fell then the game was up anyway. Yes, the plan was that the British would fight on from the Dominions, but the bulk of the manufacturing capability, and the largest concentration of manpower would be under enemy occupation. Quite clearly defence of the UK therefore was paramount in the summer of 1940.

But, that does not mean that the British would simply refuse to defend elsewhere if it was needed – and if the threat to the UK was manageable. So despite, in real life, the Germans actually doing something about preparing for an invasion, Churchill didn’t bring home UK forces from Egypt and the Middle East, he didn’t reduce Malta and Gibraltar of defences. Yes he swapped six territorial battalions in the UK with six regular battalions from Egypt, and small elements of the ANZAC forces that were to have fought in France, were sent to the UK from the Middle East. The Canadians were in the UK too. What numbers could be expected to bolster the defences of Gibraltar would depend on the threat to the UK, but Gibraltar was too important to be simply given up.

But what is being proposed in this woefully undetailed ‘staff study’ is that the Germans effectively do nothing but plonk a few French barges in various ports while the Luftwaffe sit around and occasionally ‘demonstrate’. Apparently, this policy of letting British industry get on and recover, this policy of leaving Britain alone, while fighter command pilots train properly and bomber command builds up is supposed to be sufficient to make the British believe an invasion was imminent.

After September, when the weather would preclude an invasion, the British have far more flexibility to move units overseas. And so timing of course is also very important, and that is why Curtis Lemay is so desperate for his attack on Spain to start before the Germans would realistically have been in a position to do so.

He suggested July! for this reason. The Armistice with France was only signed on the 22 June 1940. Until around the 1 June, the Germans had no reason to believe that France would be defeated so quickly and there is no way plans would have been made for what happens next. We know Hitler still believed, especially after the armistice, that the British would refuse to fight on and continued to make peace feelers. There would necessarily be a time for the defeat of France to sink in and for the British to come to their senses, before Hitler realised the truth….

Having done so, and Catapult would have pretty much told him all he needed to know, he now, at the start of July, has to start thinking about the next steps. We know the route he chose, but this scenario has Hitler choosing a different path having listened to Raeder and a few others about the benefits of the Mediterranean.

Gibraltar would of course have been the first name on the list and this is perfect, after all, Franco would be sufficiently grateful for the help received in installing him as Claudillo, that he would jump at the chance to get Gibraltar back. Despite the total nonsense outlined (there is no detail) in this scenario, under no circumstances under any scenario, would Hitler simply plan to invade Spain. Counter-factuals can be fun to explore, but alternate scenarios need to be kept from flights of fantasy.

So, after Catapult gives Hitler his answer from the UK, Hitler will now set out to convince Spain of the need to join the Axis after the usual diplomatic manoeuvrings. Hitler is no doubt fully confident that Franco knows what he has to do. But, unlike Hitler, we know exactly what Franco will say and we know why he will say it. Hitler will ask Mussolini to speak to him as one ‘southern European’ to another, and we know too, what will come from this. Eventually (we assume Hitler is by this point sufficiently set on a Med strategy, and sufficiently angered by Franco) he gives the Spaniard an ultimatum. “Look, I’ve been nice, I’ve offered you what I can, but I really need you to make a decision or it’s no more Mr Nice Guy”. Logically this ultimatum coincides with plans to invade Spain instead.

An invasion of Spain is such a massive decision. I know it’s a favourite of strategic war gamers, but if we come out of the cardboard and pixel world we gamers all love to inhabit, and actually stay in the real world then we must acknowledge that, for so many reasons, and on so many levels, this is a huge decision. The letters between Hitler and Mussolini reflect how annoyed Hitler was at Franco’s stance but, at no point, does he remotely even suggest that there would be any offensive action taken against Spain in return. But, for the purposes of this scenario, we are going with it, but it is something that Hitler will do everything he can to avoid.

By the time the Germans have drawn up the plans and moved the forces required into southwest France and ready for the lead elements to cross the border, we are probably talking mid-August at the earliest? I think with Malta and Gibraltar intact and the Regia Marina yet to have the Littorios worked up, we can discount any naval assistance from the Italians. Besides, the RM is fully focussed on supplying Italian troops in North Africa that Mussolini is desperate to set against the British in Egypt.

Meanwhile, what has been happening in Northern France? This is the big unanswered question at this point. What exactly have the Germans been doing to make the British believe an invasion is being planned? Without understanding this then any British response to action against Spain simply can’t be considered.





RangerJoe -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/1/2020 11:31:43 AM)

Not only was the armistice signed on 22 June 1940, the Panzer formations need at least six weeks of refitting and reorganizing for their next operations. If this was not done, there would be a lot of broken down vehicles along the roads. It is time consuming to do the refitting.




Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/1/2020 7:17:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Once again you wilfully mis-represent what I say. Pretty pathetic to be honest. I have suggested nothing of the sort and this behaviour just makes you look bad.


You're just suggesting that the Japs go to war with the US and British. That's going to be saving them a fortune!

quote:

...and in 'waiting' for years it helped Japan how exactly?


Irrelevant. The point is, that no collapse of government occurred, despite years of extra war in China.

quote:

Except there kind of is. Japan needed to do something. We know that Barbarossa meant the argument was settled in real life in favour of the south. But you simply refuse to accept (because it doesn't suit your scenario) that in this alternate scenario, Japan still has a choice to make. All the signs, all that is happening and (given all that we know actually happened in terms of the action Japan took) leads us logically to conclude Japan would take the historic route. To not so so is too much of a flight of fantasy.

Sorry that it hurts your scenario but there you gp.


The wiki article and common sense tells us that Barbarossa was a prerequisite for the Rising Sun offensive. No "signs", no "logic" lead anywhere else.




Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/1/2020 7:20:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

This is a joke right?

You said AND I QUOTE:

quote:

Curtis Lemay

Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up till after....the BoB.


Right, so having got yet ANOTHER fact wrong you try and change the meaning of what you said. Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up. I repeat, according to you Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up. Right. The Genesis of Barbarossa:


The actual operation called Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up.

A vague wishlist sort of examination is not the same as the named operation.




Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/1/2020 7:21:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

So the Royal Navy could go in at night and wipe out the invasion forces and leave the area before dawn. I am glad that you agree with me.


While in port they are defended by field artillery and eventually, coastal batteries.

Trading DDs for barges is a win for Germany.




Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/1/2020 7:34:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

One million men in the Turkish Army with 42 infantry divisions, two Cavalry divisions, plus assorted brigades including armour. The Turkish Straits have to be crossed under fire. So they could plan it, they just have to fight it.


This is not out of line with SPI. They have 30 divisions with one division a week arriving as reinforcement. So, some of those may have been reserves.

But, they are distributed all over Turkey (see the attached shot), and 21 of those divisions (and all the reinforcements) are "Static" divisions - like they don't have transport for their heavy equipment and have to manhandle it everywhere in order to move. The Turks were very poorly equipped.

This makes them far less than ideal. They have to decide far in advance just where they will be deployed, and that's pretty much where they will stay. SPI has 12 divisions in front of the Bosporus and one division in Istanbul. If they redistribute that to the Sea of Marmara, the Germans will just blitz through Istanbul directly.

[image]local://upfiles/14086/06F20A377B1E4035B3FC131A7582E999.jpg[/image]




Curtis Lemay -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/1/2020 7:38:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The Turkish Air Force had 500 aircraft, more later. The Luftwaffe could not destroy the RAF Fighter Command, the Turkish Air Force would last awhile. And where would the Luftwaffe be based initially?


Bulgaria and Greece. The RAF was protected by the Channel.

And, since there is no Barbarossa, all the air assets that would have been used for that will be available for Turkey. The Soviets lost about 2000 aircraft on week one, recall.




warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/1/2020 7:39:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

This is a joke right?

You said AND I QUOTE:

quote:

Curtis Lemay

Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up till after....the BoB.


Right, so having got yet ANOTHER fact wrong you try and change the meaning of what you said. Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up. I repeat, according to you Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up. Right. The Genesis of Barbarossa:


The actual operation called Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up.

A vague wishlist sort of examination is not the same as the named operation.
Warspite1

Oh.....You need to stop digging.

The word Barbarossa refers generally to the invasion of the USSR and is used when discussing the plans and preparations too. But let’s play your silly disingenuous game for the moment. So you are saying that Barbarossa was the named operation - and no plans count unless called Barbarossa.......

But how can that be because surely you know that Hitler used the name Barbarossa for the first time in December 1940 (previously Otto or Fritz) and the plan in place at that time was amended and revised numerous times afterwards until the final version.

So please stop this nonsense. The German plans for the invasion of the Soviet Union - ultimately to be known as Barbarossa - began in July 1940.

By the way, did you really call the Marcks plan a vague wishlist? erm.... okay.....




warspite1 -> RE: The question to ask about The Italians (9/1/2020 7:46:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Trading DDs for barges is a win for Germany.

warspite1

Well that is pretty hilarious.

Trading barges is a win for Germany..... how many barges do you think the Germans have? What happpens to the follow up waves and the replacements and the supplies when those barges are sunk? No, trading barges is not a win for Germany because they are irreplaceable.




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